Incarnates: Mythology Connection?
By
40Thieves,
Posted on: 2005-05-20 15:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
well, his mask is sort of greeky helmety. (or is it spartan?) 
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well, his mask is sort of greeky helmety. (or is it spartan?)
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I think the Spartan/Greek helmets pretty much looked the same: according to Google this is Spartan, whereas this one's Greek (Corinthian, according to the web site).
Anyhow, I think it makes a lot of sense. Might be the curse Recluse is referring to. I wonder if the "curse" is because of hubris; Zeus (and possibly the other gods) got the Furies on his bad side and so he's forced to be incarnated into the mortal realm to atone.
One condition of the incarnation might be that you don't have one incarnation, but two: the good side and the bad, fated to battle for supremacy. (Setting aside the multiverse, of course, where there are several different permutations of things). Or, more likely given that we'll eventually have player incarnates, one god can have multiple pairings... each a fragment of that god. They're immortal until they destroy their opposite, then the curse lifts.
My only gripe is that Stateman (much less Recluse) doesn't seem all that.. Zeusy.
Anyhow, just blathering.
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My only gripe is that Stateman (much less Recluse) doesn't seem all that.. Zeusy.
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maybe the american who marched off to ww1 decided to use the power to his theme rather than playing on the greek theme. I've always liked a hero who doesn't go full tilt into the theme life has hashed out for them.
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My only gripe is that Stateman (much less Recluse) doesn't seem all that.. Zeusy.
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maybe the american who marched off to ww1 decided to use the power to his theme rather than playing on the greek theme. I've always liked a hero who doesn't go full tilt into the theme life has hashed out for them.
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Ah, good point. Didn't really consider the 'possession' aspect.
this makes alot of sense.
I have my own little theory on this and recluse that i came up of from me reading your theory.
What if statesmen and lord recluse are brothers?
States could be Zues incarnated and recluse could be Hades (Zues brother thats basically the ruler of hell) incarnated.
They would be fighting each other alot cause Zues and Hades never were on good terms with each other and Hades was kinda evil.
The cursed line would make alot of sense kinda cause in mythology Zues Hades and Posiden (the thrid brother of Zues)
drew lots on who would gain control of what part of the world basically. Zues won first so he got the heavens and sky, Posiden got second so he got the seas, and Hades got the bum luck so hes stuck with the underworld.
or the cursed line could just mean that being immortal is a curse unto itself cause as an immortal you will always out live everyone you know and love.
He still doesn't seem all that "Zuesy". I mean, where are all the illegitimate children?
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He still doesn't seem all that "Zuesy". I mean, where are all the illegitimate children?
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...
... makes me wonder why Penny Preston is not only the only child in the game, but also wears a Statesman t-shirt. 
Dungeoncleaners! (ID#125715): Slay the Adventurers! Rescue the Monsters! Return the Treasure!
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He still doesn't seem all that "Zuesy". I mean, where are all the illegitimate children?
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ROFL
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Hades (Zues brother thats basically the ruler of hell)
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OK, just for the record, Hades was ruler of the underworld (also called Hades) and the underworld was not hell. It was just the place the dead went to ...well be dead.
Good and bad went to Hades, hell is probably where Zeus' father ended up (forget the name, starts with a Tar...heck I'm prob wrong there, it's been awhile).
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Hades (Zues brother thats basically the ruler of hell)
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OK, just for the record, Hades was ruler of the underworld (also called Hades) and the underworld was not hell. It was just the place the dead went to ...well be dead.
Good and bad went to Hades, hell is probably where Zeus' father ended up (forget the name, starts with a Tar...heck I'm prob wrong there, it's been awhile).
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wasnt Zeus's fathers name Cronos, one of the titans ?
Anyways my theory is that their power has nothing to do with their helmets since the first COH cinematic shows Statesman just wearing a Mask. Then in World War II he is wearing a full helmet, completely different in style from the half helmet he wears now.
Yeah, Kronos/Saturn. Zeus was kinda annoyed his Dad ate him and his brothers/sisters when he was born (or something like that) so after beating the heck out of him, he chained him up somewhere to suffer forever.
It's where he's chained up I can't remember.
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this makes alot of sense.
I have my own little theory on this and recluse that i came up of from me reading your theory.
What if statesmen and lord recluse are brothers?
States could be Zues incarnated and recluse could be Hades (Zues brother thats basically the ruler of hell) incarnated.
They would be fighting each other alot cause Zues and Hades never were on good terms with each other and Hades was kinda evil.
The cursed line would make alot of sense kinda cause in mythology Zues Hades and Posiden (the thrid brother of Zues)
drew lots on who would gain control of what part of the world basically. Zues won first so he got the heavens and sky, Posiden got second so he got the seas, and Hades got the bum luck so hes stuck with the underworld.
or the cursed line could just mean that being immortal is a curse unto itself cause as an immortal you will always out live everyone you know and love.
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there is a theory that immortals are detached...and to them time flies by really fast... like years pass by and they feel like its only been days or weeks. They never learn to love wholly casue to them people come and go by fast... they get sad and everything but its all so quick to their minds that its like knowing someone for 3 months... you get to know em but never really feel for them... so love isent a curse...its just unkonwn to em by their very nature...
The cures comes from knowing ppl feel and achieve emotional states they can only dream of and knowing they will never know the debt of human emotional binds simply becasue of their nature.....
...........then agian its just a theory..........
Ok.. a couple of things to clear up here...
First of all, it is not Zues. it's Zeus. Zeus is one of the few words in the english language that has the 'e' before the 'u'. Since i've been writing the word "zeus" for my whole life, I now misspell words like feul, teusday... you get the idea. I try not to be a spelling nazi, but over the last 30something years this one has started to get to me.
Secondly, hades was in no way evil. The greeks did not have an evil underworld. They didn't really even have much of a concept of evil. Evil was a primarily christian concept, and that came around long after the greek pantheon had migrated into the romans.... same gods, less cool names. Evil is a relatively modern concept... the idea that any person or action can be "fundamentally, universally wrong just because of it's nature".... kind of an odd concept if you think about it. From what I can tell, Zeus was only an opponent of Hades in that damned disney movie.
That said, I don't think the OP's suggestion is really that far off base however. It has definate merit. If Statesman is an avatar of a god, he could very well be the power of a god incarnate. Lord Recluse could also be an avatar of a god. If indeed the power becomes incarnate by taking possession of a host (in this case, the guy statesman used to be), then perhaps lord recluse is a villian because he was of a villanous nature even before he was granted the powers of a god. In fact, it may be feasable that a benevolent god's powers, being used by a malicious person, would wind up more villianous than benevolent. A good hearted person could do the same with a more maelevolent natured god's powers.
Oh, and Zeus' father was Uranus. Or Chronos, depending on which version you read. Typically though Uranus was the first god of the universe, who was slain by his son Chronos, who in turn was slain by his son Zeus - the last of the titans and new ruler of the universe.
Zeus - god of information and opinion
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I think the Spartan/Greek helmets pretty much looked the same: according to Google this is Spartan, whereas this one's Greek (Corinthian, according to the web site).
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Sparta was a city in ancient Greece. So, any helmets that are Spartan are automatically also Greek. 
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They would be fighting each other alot cause Zues and Hades never were on good terms with each other and Hades was kinda evil.
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Aside from the whole Persephone thing, Hades wasn't really evil.
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Good and bad went to Hades, hell is probably where Zeus' father ended up (forget the name, starts with a Tar...heck I'm prob wrong there, it's been awhile).
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Cronus The "Tar" you might be thinking of is "Tartarus," which was the bad side of the underworld, where Cronus and his fellow Titans were cast after Zeus defeated them.
Zeus' father was Cronos, who was King of the Titans and, for his time, the premier god. Cronos was son of Gaia and the Sky, whose name I can't remember. Zeus is, I believe the youngest of his brothers and sisters, since he was the only one to be saved since his mother (whose name I also forget) had watched each of her children be consumed by Cronos.
But yes, Hades is far from evil. He's just a bit of a sad character who lives in general solitude in the Underworld, save for when Persephone spends her part of the year with him.
As I remember, Zeus got along far better with him than with Poseidon. So I'd consider Hades an unlikely case for the source of Recluse' power, that is, supposing that Statesman's power is derived from Zeus.
Also, as I remember, Zeus' lightning bolts are created for him, or at least were at first when he returned to face Cronos. They weren't an inherent power he pulled out of his beard, they were... well, crafted.
It's possible that Statesman actually got his power from whomever crafted the lightning bolts (can't remember who now). However, only Zeus can truly wield them, so Statesman could be borrowing the powers when he uses that ability. Remember, he's 'calling upon' the power of Zeus' Lightning. Doesn't necessarily mean he fires lightning from his fingertips.
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Cronus The "Tar" you might be thinking of is "Tartarus," which was the bad side of the underworld, where Cronus and his fellow Titans were cast after Zeus defeated them.
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Yeah thats the place! Thanks!
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Yeah, Kronos/Saturn. Zeus was kinda annoyed his Dad ate him and his brothers/sisters when he was born (or something like that) so after beating the heck out of him, he chained him up somewhere to suffer forever.
It's where he's chained up I can't remember.
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Typically it was uranus that swallowed his sons, because it was prophisized that his son would overthrow him. One of his sons was powerful enough to crawl out from his belly and slay him. This son was Chronos. (in other stories he was just a son who castrated his father and destroyed him.. no swallowing involved) He was also prophisized to have his son slay him, and he thought it was still a good idea to eat his kids. however, Zeus' mom (various names depending on who is telling the story) wanted Zeus to live (I was just way too cool to die) so she wrapped a stone in a baby blanket and fed that to her husband. Zeus was then raised by goats.. or fae, depending on the version. As a teenager he slew his father Chronos, and upon slicing open his father's stomach his brothers, Poseidon and Hades, came out.
It's odd... the more you look at various sources, the more varied stores you find. There seems to be no one right or wrong greek mythology - there are numerous stories, many of which contradict each other. So if you're SURE that the mythology went one particular way... You just only heard one version of the story. Other versions are usually just as correct, it's mythology after all.
Oh, and the god who made the lightining bolts was Hephaestus. God of smiths and metalworking.
Zeus - god of right and wrong
Might not be a greek gods either. There are many gods and goddesses of days gone by. There are even one or two spider oriented ones floating around...
Edit: that is to say.. incarnates might not be limited to gods found in greek mythology.
Yeah but Jack is a greek-myth nut, so I'd put my bets on it being something (even if just in name only) tied to greek mythology.
On the other hand...nothing is stopping Jesus from kicking the door down and turning all the water in Lord Recluse's body into wine.
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Yeah but Jack is a greek-myth nut, so I'd put my bets on it being something (even if just in name only) tied to greek mythology.
On the other hand...nothing is stopping Jesus from kicking the door down and turning all the water in Lord Recluse's body into wine.
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Hehehe, and kicking the butts of the entire Greek Pantheon? 
/em groan
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This son was Chronos. (in other stories he was just a son who castrated his father and destroyed him.. no swallowing involved) He was also prophisized to have his son slay him, and he thought it was still a good idea to eat his kids. however, Zeus' mom (various names depending on who is telling the story) wanted Zeus to live (I was just way too cool to die) so she wrapped a stone in a baby blanket and fed that to her husband.
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I believe the mother of Zeus was Rhea.
And as for the whole, "swallowing of the children," think. Zeus took that to new heights when he swallowed Metis before she gave birth!
I guess the trait ran in the family.
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Ok.. a couple of things to clear up here...
First of all, it is not Zues. it's Zeus. Zeus is one of the few words in the english language that has the 'e' before the 'u'. Since i've been writing the word "zeus" for my whole life, I now misspell words like feul, teusday... you get the idea. I try not to be a spelling nazi, but over the last 30something years this one has started to get to me.
Secondly, hades was in no way evil. The greeks did not have an evil underworld. They didn't really even have much of a concept of evil. Evil was a primarily christian concept, and that came around long after the greek pantheon had migrated into the romans.... same gods, less cool names. Evil is a relatively modern concept... the idea that any person or action can be "fundamentally, universally wrong just because of it's nature".... kind of an odd concept if you think about it. From what I can tell, Zeus was only an opponent of Hades in that damned disney movie.
That said, I don't think the OP's suggestion is really that far off base however. It has definate merit. If Statesman is an avatar of a god, he could very well be the power of a god incarnate. Lord Recluse could also be an avatar of a god. If indeed the power becomes incarnate by taking possession of a host (in this case, the guy statesman used to be), then perhaps lord recluse is a villian because he was of a villanous nature even before he was granted the powers of a god. In fact, it may be feasable that a benevolent god's powers, being used by a malicious person, would wind up more villianous than benevolent. A good hearted person could do the same with a more maelevolent natured god's powers.
Oh, and Zeus' father was Uranus. Or Chronos, depending on which version you read. Typically though Uranus was the first god of the universe, who was slain by his son Chronos, who in turn was slain by his son Zeus - the last of the titans and new ruler of the universe.
Zeus - god of information and opinion
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you know...that brings an interesting question... if zuse's father was a titan why is he a god...?... send me a pm?... would love someoen to argue this stuff with.... kinda lacking where i am from 
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Ok.. a couple of things to clear up here...
First of all, it is not Zues. it's Zeus. Zeus is one of the few words in the english language that has the 'e' before the 'u'. Since i've been writing the word "zeus" for my whole life, I now misspell words like feul, teusday... you get the idea. I try not to be a spelling nazi, but over the last 30something years this one has started to get to me.
Secondly, hades was in no way evil. The greeks did not have an evil underworld. They didn't really even have much of a concept of evil. Evil was a primarily christian concept, and that came around long after the greek pantheon had migrated into the romans.... same gods, less cool names. Evil is a relatively modern concept... the idea that any person or action can be "fundamentally, universally wrong just because of it's nature".... kind of an odd concept if you think about it. From what I can tell, Zeus was only an opponent of Hades in that damned disney movie.
That said, I don't think the OP's suggestion is really that far off base however. It has definate merit. If Statesman is an avatar of a god, he could very well be the power of a god incarnate. Lord Recluse could also be an avatar of a god. If indeed the power becomes incarnate by taking possession of a host (in this case, the guy statesman used to be), then perhaps lord recluse is a villian because he was of a villanous nature even before he was granted the powers of a god. In fact, it may be feasable that a benevolent god's powers, being used by a malicious person, would wind up more villianous than benevolent. A good hearted person could do the same with a more maelevolent natured god's powers.
Oh, and Zeus' father was Uranus. Or Chronos, depending on which version you read. Typically though Uranus was the first god of the universe, who was slain by his son Chronos, who in turn was slain by his son Zeus - the last of the titans and new ruler of the universe.
Zeus - god of information and opinion
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you know...that brings an interesting question... if zuse's father was a titan why is he a god...?... send me a pm?... would love someone to argue this stuff with.... kinda lacking where i am from
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Yeah, Kronos/Saturn. Zeus was kinda annoyed his Dad ate him and his brothers/sisters when he was born (or something like that) so after beating the heck out of him, he chained him up somewhere to suffer forever.
It's where he's chained up I can't remember.
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Typically it was uranus that swallowed his sons, because it was prophisized that his son would overthrow him. One of his sons was powerful enough to crawl out from his belly and slay him. This son was Chronos. (in other stories he was just a son who castrated his father and destroyed him.. no swallowing involved) He was also prophisized to have his son slay him, and he thought it was still a good idea to eat his kids. however, Zeus' mom (various names depending on who is telling the story) wanted Zeus to live (I was just way too cool to die) so she wrapped a stone in a baby blanket and fed that to her husband. Zeus was then raised by goats.. or fae, depending on the version. As a teenager he slew his father Chronos, and upon slicing open his father's stomach his brothers, Poseidon and Hades, came out.
It's odd... the more you look at various sources, the more varied stores you find. There seems to be no one right or wrong greek mythology - there are numerous stories, many of which contradict each other. So if you're SURE that the mythology went one particular way... You just only heard one version of the story. Other versions are usually just as correct, it's mythology after all.
Oh, and the god who made the lightining bolts was Hephaestus. God of smiths and metalworking.
Zeus - god of right and wrong
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Hephastus did not craft the lightning bolts.
The cyclopses did.
They are cousins of Cronus iirc.
They also made posidens trident and i think hades magic helmet that turned him invisible.
Oh yeah, and the reason i compared Hades to Hell is to kind of make the people who dont know greek mythology less confused.
And I for one consider Hades a little evil because he didn't care about anyone but himself and getting more souls for Hades.
And maybe Persephone.
And alos they're evil gods. Ares was always considered evil and bloodthirsty (but also a big [censored]) and have you ever heard of Discord? She was mad cause none of the gods liked her so she basically was the cause of the Trojan War.
I like this thread. I never get to have a discussion with people about mythology.
I finally get to show of my knowledge!
Ok, so there have been a lot of cool theories about what an Incarnate is...but I'd like to throw another thing in the mix.
* Onthe CoH website, when they describe Statesman's return from WWI as a costumed superhero they described him as having powers " It was undeniable that Cole possessed something that hadn't been seen since the age of the Greek Heroes: superpowers."
* Manticore has posted in this thread that Statesman's "Inner Will" explanation may not be the whole truth. Specifically, that people are really questioning this explanation now that Statesman is seemingly unaging.
* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
* Let's face it, like a lot of comic fans, the dev teams LOVES mythology. Heck, Statesman himself is very well schooled in it.
So, here's my idea: The "Incarnate" ability refers to being the power of a god "Incarnate". Statesman may be Zeus, he's incredibly powerful, and can call his lightning. Perhaps Recluse is the incarnate power of some vile spider diety (thus his reference to a "curse", perhaps Statesman sees him being 'cursed' to the incarnate of that evil being). Perhaps when we become an Incarnate we get to pick a unique ability..like Statesma has his lightning, representing Zeus. Perhaps we pick a "diety" and get an ability corresponding to it.