Incarnates: Mythology Connection?
By
40Thieves,
Posted on: 2005-05-20 15:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
wow....
Reading this page makes me realize just how much schools are not teaching anymore. Mythology (in particualar, Greek/Roman mythology) used to be part of my standard english learning from 5th-8th grade.
But in any case.... mythology aside, Statesman may very well be the incarnate (although I always prefered the Hindi term "avatar") of Zeus, that does not necessarily mean that Recluse has to belong to the same Pantheon. (which is a collection of gods, based on world region) Recluse, based on his spider design may be the Incarnate of the African spider god, Anansai (I think that is how it is spelled....).
Anansai (or Anansi) was a "trickster" god who granted wishes, but always with a terrible price (first-born children, etc...). Again, like most ancient gods, Anansai was not "evil" per say, but one must also consider the person who is the incarnate. It could be that Recluse was an evil man who sought out the Incarnate power (or, however it is that one becomes an Incarnate), and is thus using thee powers for evil.
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If I ran the zoo, here's what I'd do...
The path to "Incarnate" status should be a Hero's Quest. Not unlike Heracles, there should be a number of tasks to accomplish, all of them difficult, some which require a team, some which must be done solo. Perhaps even a task which you must accomplish as an exemplar. All of the tasks in the arc should have one thing in common: the quester must be directly involved. This can't be done for you. (Though I'm not opposed to the idea of one task that must be done for you.)
Each task should test the quester in a different area: strength, courage, humility, self-sacrifice, etc. All the virtues an Incarnate should possess.
Failure of one or two tasks would not lead to failure of the quest, per se, but may shape the final outcome: the lacking virtues could constitute a weakness of the Incarnate. There should be a critical mass, however, at which point the quest is failed and cannot be repeated until you've earned the right. Yes, it's harsh, but Incarnate must be earned. There should be no easy way to it.
I would like paths to the end to vary. Unlike current story arcs in which everyone runs the same missions in the same order, let there be 3-4 tasks which can be accomplished for each virtue. This would lead to high variation the quest from player to player.
A Hero's Quest always involves some manner of sacrifice. This should be no different. The quester must be required to relinquish something of great value. Not influence, but something that would really count. An important power, perhaps, or several levels.
Completion of the quest should incur a reward consumate with the risk taken, and would elevate the character into a new realm of possibilities and dangers heretofore unimagined. It's a whole new ballgame.
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Excellent idea, but Statesman (the dev) has said to ideas like this that having quests and what not that invoke thought and challege would be easily found out and the subsequently exploited. I like the idea, but it would just take one lazy player to see the most powerful incarnate and then go to the boards and see what missions/quests were done and how to do them in order to get the most powerful resultant character.
If only there was an expansion that implemented some sort of delightful algorithm for players that like to work at the game and have fun with it rather than people who obviously don't.
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So, here's my idea: The "Incarnate" ability refers to being the power of a god "Incarnate". Statesman may be Zeus, he's incredibly powerful, and can call his lightning. Perhaps Recluse is the incarnate power of some vile spider diety (thus his reference to a "curse", perhaps Statesman sees him being 'cursed' to the incarnate of that evil being). Perhaps when we become an Incarnate we get to pick a unique ability..like Statesma has his lightning, representing Zeus. Perhaps we pick a "diety" and get an ability corresponding to it.
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In one of the books of the Bible, they speak about, paraphrasing here, let there not be among you a consulter of spirits, a neuromancer, a magician, a fore-seer of times, etc, for these things are an abomination. There is so much magic going on in Paragon that I couldn't resist! I used this for my character concept of TheExorcist. Any magic-based beings ARE the problem with society according to the Voice of G-d, that gives TheExorcist his (grav/ff) controller powers. Thus, he is natural, so that is interesting the point that you have made hereas it has been the basis for TheExorcist.
Another explanation is, how can a controller, emp defender or non-brute player be natural? Well, if we use 10 percent of our brains, than perhaps we also use 10 percent of our bodies, Add up these two 90 percents = a big ol' blast of laser beam coming out me eyes!
We could also surmise that perhaps when cast from the heavens Zeus was torn into two halves, one rich with his justice, kindles and tenderness and one filled with hatred, anger and destruction. If so that would likely make the most interesting story. Not brothers in the sense of the word but 2 halves of the same coin.. This would lead one to believe why they are so perfectly match. It would also explain why though powerful a incarnate may be that they are no gods in the realm of mankind.
This also would easily explain why Statesman seems to be uncertain of what his allies can and cant handle, but would also explain why Statesman isnt a [censored] like Zeus was, and lets face it as Gods go Zeus was many times a royal [censored]. Statesman does not present himself as such. So the thought of Zeus the ruler of gods being ripped into 2 halves and cursed by the heavens would explain the curse reference. It may also tie into Recluses obsession with Statesman in that States holds his other half. And if in fact this was the storyline, the good kind half of Zeus may in fact be quite happy with the curse whereas the miserable vile Recluse may be striving to return to his former glory as Zeus , King of the Gods. Anyways my take on a possibility.
So if greek heroes had Superpowers, then what was Achilles? What was Odysseus? What was Hector? What was Theseus?
Heh.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
A fearful god and jealous of his inevitable passing, Kronos was a Titan, the son of Uranus and Gaia, husband and brother of Rheia.
Kronos killed his father Uranus and tried, unsuccessfully, to kill his children. Rheia had five children and Kronos swallowed them whole as quickly as they were born. When her sixth child, Zeus, was born, Rheia tricked Kronos and gave him a stone instead of the baby. Kronos didnt find out about the deception until it was too late. Zeus ambushed Kronos and kicked him so hard he vomited forth the other, swallowed, gods, fully grown: Hades, Hestia, Demeter, Hera and Poseidon.
Zeus was made leader by his grateful siblings and each took a portion of creation as their dominion. A war was declared against the Titans and those who would not yield to the authority of Zeus were utterly destroyed. The Titans who fought alongside Zeus and the other Olympians were allowed to keep their rank and power in the new order. The river Styx and her children were the first to come to Zeus side. Thereafter, Styx was given a place of honor (and dread) among the immortals as The Oath River.
Zeus exiled Kronos to Tartaros but later he allowed his broken and defeated father to join the Heroes in a paradise at the end of the world.
He is often confused with the Roman god, Saturn.
Ref: Stewart, Michael. "Kronos", Greek Mythology: From the Iliad to the Fall of the Last Tyrant. http://messagenet.com/myths/bios/kronos.html (June 5, 2005)
FYI
Jack (i.e. me) has a BA in Classical Civilization, a MA in Ancient History and a MA in Greek & Latin. My specialty: ancient religion. I know ancient Greek, Latin, Italian, French, German, some Aramaic, Coptic, etc.
Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.
::Has a heart attack::
The big man himself!
All of those certainly explain a lot. 
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Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.
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Picky eh? Hmmm. My Mythology is casual at best (though I really do enjoy it). It probably means that Jack knows a bundle more than we do, to the point that when we DO find out what Statesman is... It's going to be an "Oooh ahhh" moment.
I consider myself causal toward mythology myself, but I haven't realy learned anything new from this thread. I have noticed a few people have minor conflicting details, but that is all. I never activly stuidied mythology. Odd that I know as much as I do. Probably next to nothing compared to Jack by the sounds of it.
::Shrug::
I await the truth of Statesman as well. It should deffinatly be good.
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My only gripe is that Stateman (much less Recluse) doesn't seem all that.. Zeusy.
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maybe the american who marched off to ww1 decided to use the power to his theme rather than playing on the greek theme. I've always liked a hero who doesn't go full tilt into the theme life has hashed out for them.
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Besides which, Statesmen hasn't exactly been open about his past. If he showed up all "Zeusy", I think people would figure it out fairly easily. So, if in fact, he is some literal incarnation of Zeus (which I doubt; possessing someone's powers or abilities is entirely different from being their incarnation), he would be obliged to disguise the fact if he didn't want his past to quickly become public knowledge.
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or the cursed line could just mean that being immortal is a curse unto itself cause as an immortal you will always out live everyone you know and love.
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Unless they're immortal, too. And by this line of thinking, if somehow Statesman became the incarnation of Zeus, what's to stop some heroine from becoming the incarnation of Hera? Not that any heroine would want that particular role...
I can't help wondering if Jack snickers at some of the theories flying around.
::Looks at the star icon only a few posts above::
Do you? I would if I knew the truth.
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FYI
Jack (i.e. me) has a BA in Classical Civilization, a MA in Ancient History and a MA in Greek & Latin. My specialty: ancient religion. I know ancient Greek, Latin, Italian, French, German, some Aramaic, Coptic, etc.
Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.
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I'm scared now
@PlasmaStream
"Big Bada Boom(tm)!"
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http://GuardianForce.Guildportal.com - Virtue
Niska: Are you Familiar with the works of Shan Yu?
I'm gonna get worried when you start posting in pictograms 
Several people on the forums have noted tie-in's with ancient mythology in a few occasions, I think it adds wonderful flavor and backstory to CoH. Keep up the great work
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FYI
Jack (i.e. me) has a BA in Classical Civilization, a MA in Ancient History and a MA in Greek & Latin. My specialty: ancient religion. I know ancient Greek, Latin, Italian, French, German, some Aramaic, Coptic, etc.
Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.
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I live on an island that's so far out at sea that noone, not even Manannan mac Lir, can find it while living! Who am I?
Gilligan?
Er....you're gonna have to think a tad more Celtic if you're gonna get this one.
Just a tad
Gilliganhain? Oh, forget it.
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FYI
Jack (i.e. me) has a BA in Classical Civilization, a MA in Ancient History and a MA in Greek & Latin. My specialty: ancient religion. I know ancient Greek, Latin, Italian, French, German, some Aramaic, Coptic, etc.
Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.
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I live on an island that's so far out at sea that noone, not even Manannan mac Lir, can find it while living! Who am I?
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The banshee??
Tankers are the greatest in my book
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Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.
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Picky eh? Hmmm. My Mythology is casual at best (though I really do enjoy it). It probably means that Jack knows a bundle more than we do, to the point that when we DO find out what Statesman is... It's going to be an "Oooh ahhh" moment.
[/ QUOTE ] Top Cow's COH Issue 2 harken and read it
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I live on an island that's so far out at sea that noone, not even Manannan mac Lir, can find it while living! Who am I?
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Bono?
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* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
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only one problem......that lightning bolt on the figure is on ALL Heroclix figures. It shows how many attacks that figure can make on his turn. just FYI
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I live on an island that's so far out at sea that noone, not even Manannan mac Lir, can find it while living! Who am I?
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Arawn.
Is now a bad time to mention my teenaged obsession with Celtic mythology?
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Yeah, Kronos/Saturn. Zeus was kinda annoyed his Dad ate him and his brothers/sisters when he was born (or something like that) so after beating the heck out of him, he chained him up somewhere to suffer forever.
It's where he's chained up I can't remember.
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Probably Faultline. Or Terra Volta. Think I saw him there once.