Incarnates: Mythology Connection?

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Kronos/Saturn. Zeus was kinda annoyed his Dad ate him and his brothers/sisters when he was born (or something like that) so after beating the heck out of him, he chained him up somewhere to suffer forever.

It's where he's chained up I can't remember.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are actually three parts to Hades: Tartarus (the place where the Titans were held and where evil mortal were punished), Plain of Asphodel (the part of the upper area of the underworld, called Erebus, where most souls went and experienced neither joy nor sorrow and helled no memory of their fomer lives), and Elysian Fields (also in Erebus, where the few, truely great souls resided in bliss, among those who were believed to reside there was Achilise(sp?)). Also, Hades was not really portrayed as evil any more often than Hera, Ares, or Zeus were on their own.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Kronos/Saturn. Zeus was kinda annoyed his Dad ate him and his brothers/sisters when he was born (or something like that) so after beating the heck out of him, he chained him up somewhere to suffer forever.

It's where he's chained up I can't remember.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typically it was uranus that swallowed his sons, because it was prophisized that his son would overthrow him. One of his sons was powerful enough to crawl out from his belly and slay him. This son was Chronos. (in other stories he was just a son who castrated his father and destroyed him.. no swallowing involved) He was also prophisized to have his son slay him, and he thought it was still a good idea to eat his kids. however, Zeus' mom (various names depending on who is telling the story) wanted Zeus to live (I was just way too cool to die) so she wrapped a stone in a baby blanket and fed that to her husband. Zeus was then raised by goats.. or fae, depending on the version. As a teenager he slew his father Chronos, and upon slicing open his father's stomach his brothers, Poseidon and Hades, came out.

It's odd... the more you look at various sources, the more varied stores you find. There seems to be no one right or wrong greek mythology - there are numerous stories, many of which contradict each other. So if you're SURE that the mythology went one particular way... You just only heard one version of the story. Other versions are usually just as correct, it's mythology after all.

Oh, and the god who made the lightining bolts was Hephaestus. God of smiths and metalworking.

Zeus - god of right and wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

Hephastus did not craft the lightning bolts.

The cyclopses did.

They are cousins of Cronus iirc.

They also made posidens trident and i think hades magic helmet that turned him invisible.

Oh yeah, and the reason i compared Hades to Hell is to kind of make the people who dont know greek mythology less confused.

And I for one consider Hades a little evil because he didn't care about anyone but himself and getting more souls for Hades.

And maybe Persephone.

And alos they're evil gods. Ares was always considered evil and bloodthirsty (but also a big [censored]) and have you ever heard of Discord? She was mad cause none of the gods liked her so she basically was the cause of the Trojan War.

I like this thread. I never get to have a discussion with people about mythology.

I finally get to show of my knowledge!

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, there again you are confusing the Christian Satan with Hades. The underworld of the Greeks were where all mortals went after death, not just evil ones. Hades tricked Persephone out of loneliness for another non-dead person to be with and from infatuation. Otherwise, Hades had no need/reason to care about 'what' souls were coming into the underworld. They all did eventually, barring the immortals. I imagine it WOULD get pretty boring just talking to dead people, though.

Well, like someone else said before. Evil wasn't really a term the Greeks had or used. Ares was bloodthirsty, but not evil. Nor was Hades, Zeus, or any of the others. They were a lot more human than most deities of most cultures.

I know the intentions were good, but no need to dumb down the facts. Remember, you're talking to comic geeks who often are also mythology geeks.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Kronos/Saturn. Zeus was kinda annoyed his Dad ate him and his brothers/sisters when he was born (or something like that) so after beating the heck out of him, he chained him up somewhere to suffer forever.

It's where he's chained up I can't remember.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typically it was uranus that swallowed his sons, because it was prophisized that his son would overthrow him. One of his sons was powerful enough to crawl out from his belly and slay him. This son was Chronos. (in other stories he was just a son who castrated his father and destroyed him.. no swallowing involved) He was also prophisized to have his son slay him, and he thought it was still a good idea to eat his kids. however, Zeus' mom (various names depending on who is telling the story) wanted Zeus to live (I was just way too cool to die) so she wrapped a stone in a baby blanket and fed that to her husband. Zeus was then raised by goats.. or fae, depending on the version. As a teenager he slew his father Chronos, and upon slicing open his father's stomach his brothers, Poseidon and Hades, came out.

It's odd... the more you look at various sources, the more varied stores you find. There seems to be no one right or wrong greek mythology - there are numerous stories, many of which contradict each other. So if you're SURE that the mythology went one particular way... You just only heard one version of the story. Other versions are usually just as correct, it's mythology after all.

Oh, and the god who made the lightining bolts was Hephaestus. God of smiths and metalworking.

Zeus - god of right and wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

Hephastus did not craft the lightning bolts.

The cyclopses did.

They are cousins of Cronus iirc.

They also made posidens trident and i think hades magic helmet that turned him invisible.

Oh yeah, and the reason i compared Hades to Hell is to kind of make the people who dont know greek mythology less confused.

And I for one consider Hades a little evil because he didn't care about anyone but himself and getting more souls for Hades.

And maybe Persephone.

And alos they're evil gods. Ares was always considered evil and bloodthirsty (but also a big [censored]) and have you ever heard of Discord? She was mad cause none of the gods liked her so she basically was the cause of the Trojan War.

I like this thread. I never get to have a discussion with people about mythology.

I finally get to show of my knowledge!

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, there again you are confusing the Christian Satan with Hades. The underworld of the Greeks were where all mortals went after death, not just evil ones. Hades tricked Persephone out of loneliness for another non-dead person to be with and from infatuation. Otherwise, Hades had no need/reason to care about 'what' souls were coming into the underworld. They all did eventually, barring the immortals. I imagine it WOULD get pretty boring just talking to dead people, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever hear the story of Asclepius?

Basically its about a guy that was so good at the art of healing that he could bring people back from the dead.

Hades was pissed at this cause his subjects were being stolen so he complained to Zeus and Zeus killed Asclepius with a thunderbolt.

So yes the only thing Hades cared about was his own souls/subjects and basically he kept to himself always.

Depending on who you ask, many also refer to Greek (and Norse, etc.) Gods as being more inherently human like. They lusted, they wanted, they needed, etc. Whereas the Judeo-Christian God is "perfect" and "wants for nothing." So the old gods were not evil, they were just human....kinda.

Hades loved war but that in and of itself is not evil. War defines peace, just as death defines life (see how I got Hades in there?).

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, and the reason i compared Hades to Hell is to kind of make the people who dont know greek mythology less confused.

And I for one consider Hades a little evil because he didn't care about anyone but himself and getting more souls for Hades.

And maybe Persephone.

And alos they're evil gods. Ares was always considered evil and bloodthirsty (but also a big [censored]) and have you ever heard of Discord? She was mad cause none of the gods liked her so she basically was the cause of the Trojan War.


[/ QUOTE ]

See, you see evil, and I see people just doing their respective jobs or filling their role in a story. The greek gods were very human in their life, and humans are known to be whiny jerks sometimes and jealous whiny jerks other times. I wouldn't go and say evil tho.

Hades isn't regarded in the highest fashion cause who wants to die? I mean, I'd associate him with the Grim Reaper before anything related to Lucifer and Hell. He needs to collect souls cause thats his job. People don't like him cause they don't wanna die and the rest of the gods give him odd looks cause he hangs around with dead people and probably stanks of them :P

Ares came off to me as the crappier side of war (while Athena was the whole honor and glory and stuff) so he's gonna be a bloodthirsty jerk and a little [censored] at the same time.

As for Eros (discord)...well shes freakin' discord. She knew a golden apple with "The Fairest" (right..?) written on them would get Hera, Athena and Aphrodite into a cat fight and she did it cause she wasn't invited to some function (forget what), and rightfully so, who has a party and says "OK, don't forget to invite the goddess of [censored] up!"

[censored]

Just a thought...

What if Statesman found the relic that helped Zeus defeat the Titans. Could this explain his "inner fire"? For all we know this relic could fit into the palm of his hand or be inserted into his heart like a CoT Thorn.

I am sorry but I cannot recall he name of this Greek item(been way too long since I've read greek mytholgy.) This could somewhat explain why we are getting items of power for CoV SG bases and why they were being fought for in the E3 video. What importance does this "Crystal of Selena" hold anyway?(I am refering to the conversation around the begining of the E3 movie when Recluse first speaks. "Selena" is what he seems to be refering to and then they go and protect the crystal.)((as a side note that was the best I could make out for that dialogue, curse Recluse and his Darth Vader like voice))

From Manticore

[ QUOTE ]
Cole claimed to have unlocked the power of his own Inner Will, an obscure explanation at best. Whatever their true origin, it was undeniable that Cole possessed something that hadn't been seen since the age of the Greek Heroes: superpowers.

Note the word *claimed*

Statesman was clearly obfuscating there. As time has passed and he has shown no signs of aging, more questions are being asked. Issue 2 of the comic will give more details about Statesman and Issue 3 will bring the loathesome Lord Recluse's connection into sharp focus.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically its about a guy that was so good at the art of healing that he could bring people back from the dead.

Hades was pissed at this cause his subjects were being stolen so he complained to Zeus and Zeus killed Asclepius with a thunderbolt.

So yes the only thing Hades cared about was his own souls/subjects and basically he kept to himself always.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it wasn't that he was a great healer. It was because Athena told him the secrets of the Gorgons, that the blood of the snakes from the right side of their head had the power to bring the dead to life while those on the left were instantly deadly poison.

Zeus made the decision himself to kill Asclepius and then honored him by placing him in the heavens as the thirteenth sign of the zodiac, Ophiuchus- the Serpernt Bearer.

The only relics Zeus ever had was his thundeerbolts and his Aegis shield.

The thunderbolts were a big help against the titans but the aegis he got after the war.

how he got it still confuses me

[ QUOTE ]
Hades loved war but that in and of itself is not evil. War defines peace, just as death defines life (see how I got Hades in there?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, see, when I took my philosophy course, the whole thesis-antithesis-synthisis thing struck me as stupid since it suggested that everything was defined by what it wasn't. I can't exactly disproove it, but it just felt stupid none the less.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Basically its about a guy that was so good at the art of healing that he could bring people back from the dead.

Hades was pissed at this cause his subjects were being stolen so he complained to Zeus and Zeus killed Asclepius with a thunderbolt.

So yes the only thing Hades cared about was his own souls/subjects and basically he kept to himself always.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it wasn't that he was a great healer. It was because Athena told him the secrets of the Gorgons, that the blood of the snakes from the right side of their head had the power to bring the dead to life while those on the left were instantly deadly poison.

Zeus made the decision himself to kill Asclepius and then honored him by placing him in the heavens as the thirteenth sign of the zodiac, Ophiuchus- the Serpernt Bearer.

[/ QUOTE ]

that wasnt necessarily the point. The point was about Hades and his souls.

If we start getting into technicalities we'll be here all night.

There's another thread that touches on this mythology as an Incarnate's origin thing. I'll repost my theory here as well:
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, that makes perfect sense. Statesman's helmet has an almost Athenian look to it while Recluse has a Spartan look. Statesman seemed weakened by Sirroco's blade..which, I assume, is magic. Perhaps a kind of magic that interferes with his own powers.

I agree that it seems that Statesman and Recluse both found some sort of "mystic" powersource that granted them immortality and great physical powers.

Maybe, an Incarnate is granted power beyond their current levels by some deity but, certain types of magic (maybe borne from opposing deities...who knows where Sirroco (sp?) got his from?) act almost like kryptonite to them.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote from Manitcore:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Synapse is definitely a blaster. Keep in mind that the Signature Characters all have Signature Powers that may fall outside their normal power sets. The power to call Zeus' Lighning reflected on Statesman's Heroclix figure and Sister Psyche's Mindriding ability (the power to bounce her mind into someone elses body) are good examples of this. You will see these fairly often in our videos, comics and other licensed properties.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Zeus's lightning eh? Yep, Greek deities granting powers...the plot thickens....


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, in the first issue of the new comic, Recluse uses a major spell on the war walls that takes everyone's powers away...even Statesman's. So, it seems that even the uber powerful Statesman is weak against some form of magic. Interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say Greek Mythology seems to have a lot to do with the Incarnates.

I think the whole mythology thing could be extrapolated to the rest of the CoH world, where the Surviving Eight each represent a god of Greeky Myth: For example, Synapse could represent Hermes, the wing-footed messenger of the gods;
Manticore = Apollo, God of the sun and archer type;
Ms Liberty: Athena, daughter of Zeus and goddess of Wisdom and War. Also from Wikipedia: "Athena is also a goddess associated with mentoring heroes.";
Back Street Brawler could be Heracles, or maybe Ares - both physically powerful deities.

A few of the others, I'm not sure about, but these are posibilities:
Sister Psyche = Aphrodite
Positron = Hephaestus
Numina = Artemis

Also, the whole Portal Corps story could be an adaptation of the Pandora's Box myth, where suffering was released upon mankind after something forbidden was opened.

Of course this could all be coincidence, since stories are repeated throughout history with the same basic roots; but with Statesman's background in the Classics, who knows?

[ QUOTE ]
Sparta was a city in ancient Greece. So, any helmets that are Spartan are automatically also Greek.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Sparta was a city state in a time where the concept of Greece didn't exist. Saying that is like saying that all Canadians are American.

Sparta was Sparta, a nation in their own right. Athens, who everyone commonly associates as the "Ancient Greeks" were completely different.

I thought Discord was just made up for Hercules/Xena. Well, I hate that character not at this point, if she was merely a renamed goddess.

I still totally hate the Herc/Xena version of Dionysis/Bacchus though. Rrr.

And Back Alley Brawler can't be the CoH analog to Hercules. After all, Herc was the son of Zeus and a mortal woman.

Stateslad is the "son" [through cloning] of Statesman and Countess Crey.

Haha... -I- am Hercules [or at least, if this theory proves to be true, that's who Stateslad will incarnate]!

Hades wasn't being selfish there, not really. It was his purpose as a god to watch over the dead and the underworld, and guide the spirits in their new home. When they started reappearing above... Yeah. It's not evil. Evil would be wanting them trapped in the Underworld to torture them. He just wanted the balance restored and his duty remain. The three Fates were all whacko at that point too. It's very human, and only as evil as human evil usually gets. Plus, Zeus didn't just zap him, he asked him to stop, but the man really wanted to help people. So, yes, he zapped him, but constellized (Woo English) him in respect.

But of course, technicality. Before I stop though, as I remember about Aesculapius... I remember that he had the uncanny ability to listen and understand animals, and it was that way that he learned great medicines. Or was that Menestatius (sp?)... I can't remember.

For the record, Discord was a demi-goddess. She threw, well, discord. She would start the wars that Ares would rush off to fight.

Anyway, back to the point. That's right. Zeus' lightning bolts were carved by the Cyclops', as were Poseidon's Trident and Hades' cap of invisibility. Statesman's powers don't derive from a particular artifact, but nor did any of the Pantheon gods. It was their godliness that enabled them to wield those powerful artifacts.

I think it's possible that Statesman is like Zeus' champion. Or... Zeus' INCARNATion-sorta *dundundunnn*. Remember, the gods and goddesses, while in their mortal or animal forms, didn't really retain their godliness to the same extent. Mortals couldn't survive to even glimpse at the likes of Zeus, since his power was such. Maybe Statesman can wield some of his power, and hence, that be why he can 'call on the power of Zeus' lightning'. Or at least summon some of it.

What I'm also interested in is... How might Kheldians fit into this? If they do at all? It's all in the CoH bible, so it's quite possible that Kheldians and their development are related to the revealing of Incarnates and... Incarnation.

Going by what someone else said, Statesman representing Zeus, Synapse as Hermes and so on... You think the Incarnate AT might actually be reincarnation of a god or messiah?

I dont really see states the incarnate of Zeus. Thats makes him more 'greekish' and far less 'americanish.' (ala Captain America)

I can how ever, see him being the incarnate of rather a concept or virtue, such as justice.

Btw, Hades was not the Greek god of Death, he was the ruler of the Underworld. Thanatos was the Greek god of Death, comparison today being the Grim Reaper.

Thanatos wouldn't realy compare to the Grim Reaper today, as the Grim Reaper supposedly plays a more active part in people's death, rather than just being the personification of Death itself. If anything, The Grim Reaper would resemble a combination of Atropos, the Fate who cut a persons thread of life when their time to die came, and Charon, who ferried the dead souls to the Underworld.

[ QUOTE ]
For the record, Discord was a demi-goddess. She threw, well, discord. She would start the wars that Ares would rush off to fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nit: Technically, her name was not Discord. It was Eris. Her Roman name was Discordia.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanatos wouldn't realy compare to the Grim Reaper today, as the Grim Reaper supposedly plays a more active part in people's death, rather than just being the personification of Death itself. If anything, The Grim Reaper would resemble a combination of Atropos, the Fate who cut a persons thread of life when their time to die came, and Charon, who ferried the dead souls to the Underworld.

[/ QUOTE ]

The image of the Grim Reaper (a creation of the middle ages) is basically a demonized (even moreso than the Greeks, themselves, demonized him) version of Cronus/Saturn, who was, among other things a god of time (hence chrono- = 'time') and before that, an agriculture god (hence his symbol, the scythe, which is the Grim Reaper's weapon of choice). Also, the earliest depictions of the Grim Reaper show him accompanied with crows/ravens, which were birds associated with Cronus/Saturn (probably from his argiculture background).

[ QUOTE ]
Depending on who you ask, many also refer to Greek (and Norse, etc.) Gods as being more inherently human like. They lusted, they wanted, they needed, etc. Whereas the Judeo-Christian God is "perfect" and "wants for nothing." So the old gods were not evil, they were just human....kinda.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just going to argue that there isn't, per se, a "Judeo-Christian" God. There is a God of the Hebrews and there is a God of the Christians, and never the twain shall meet.

And the God of the Hebrews is not perfect, he's a jealous God. He says as much himself.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Depending on who you ask, many also refer to Greek (and Norse, etc.) Gods as being more inherently human like. They lusted, they wanted, they needed, etc. Whereas the Judeo-Christian God is "perfect" and "wants for nothing." So the old gods were not evil, they were just human....kinda.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just going to argue that there isn't, per se, a "Judeo-Christian" God. There is a God of the Hebrews and there is a God of the Christians, and never the twain shall meet.

And the God of the Hebrews is not perfect, he's a jealous God. He says as much himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same god; different editor.

When I think of the grim reaper in mythology i think of Hermes.

Not only was he the messenger of the gods, he also led the spirits who had died to the underworld.

The image of the grim reaper could represent Charon, but thats who I made him to be

Oh and by the way, when people read mythology they come up with their own views about the stories. Everybody sees the story a little differently (like the bible) and thats why i considered some gods to be "evil." Not kill babies evil, just kinda greedy and mean and bloodthirsty.

I see alot of people correcting other people's mythological stories. YOU ARE WRONG. About the only way to be wrong in your relating the stories of the greek pantheon is to say that someone else's version is wrong. Hephestus DID give Zeus his thunderbolts. In one version. In another version it was the cyclopes. There is no one correct version. This is mythology. That's how mythology works. Two mutually exclusive stories CAN be correct... because it's all just stories anyway. that kind of defines mythology.

I'll give a more modern example that we can all understand a little better, one that has already been brought up - christianty. According to christianity, their god is perfect. Also according to christianity, their god is a jealous, sometimes angry or vengeful god. Jealousy is a very human flaw, making their god far less than perfect. While these two versions of the gods are contradictary to each other, neither one is "totally correct"..... contradictary stories and descriptions are the bread and butter of any mythology... be it greek, roman, christian, or urban legend. It's just the nature of mythology.

So by all means... feel free to interject another version of the mythos... but don't say someone else's version is wrong. Because it probably isn't. It just isn't the version you heard.

Zeus - god of write and wrong

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Depending on who you ask, many also refer to Greek (and Norse, etc.) Gods as being more inherently human like. They lusted, they wanted, they needed, etc. Whereas the Judeo-Christian God is "perfect" and "wants for nothing." So the old gods were not evil, they were just human....kinda.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just going to argue that there isn't, per se, a "Judeo-Christian" God. There is a God of the Hebrews and there is a God of the Christians, and never the twain shall meet.

And the God of the Hebrews is not perfect, he's a jealous God. He says as much himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

If either of their religions are the truth, then said God is indeed one, and not two seperate ones. Seeing as how Christians split off from the Jews, believing Jesus Christ to be the son of the Jewish God, they both do, in fact, worship the same entity. The Christians just happen to have altered their vision of him since their splitting off.