Incarnates: Mythology Connection?
By
40Thieves,
Posted on: 2005-05-20 15:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Can I pat myself on the back for knowing what it means? 
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Sure.
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Another explanation is, how can a controller, emp defender or non-brute player be natural? Well, if we use 10 percent of our brains, than perhaps we also use 10 percent of our bodies, Add up these two 90 percents = a big ol' blast of laser beam coming out me eyes!
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Nit: The 10% of our brains thing is a load of hogwash. Oft repeated idiocy. It might be /slightly/ closer to say we use a small percentage of our brains at any one time (and by that I mean that in any give microsecond, a small percentage of neurons are firing). But it has been well proven that just remembering things fire neurons all over your brain - we use it all, just not at once. Just like we use all our muscles - just not all at once.
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Based on our current understanding of neural networks, not even that sort of analogy tends to hold up. Asking how much of our brains we use, even over short periods of time, is roughly analogous to asking how much of the sand is the beach using at any moment in time. It isn't that the 10% number is wrong, its that the question is practically meaningless.
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so cool. And to make everyone happy you could even have the judeo-christian pantheon be like... the archangels or something.
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The angels, all of them are not gods, but servants of God. But he is a pantheon in and of himself. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are also parts of God, leading some people to point out that Christianity isn't really monotheistic because they technically worship three different beings. This argument is usually countered by saying that they are three sides of the same thing.
As for the Jewish god Christian god argument, they are supposed to be the same god, but if you read both new and old testament they sound like two completely different deities.
There are a couple of things that I wanted to comment on.
I know no one else has pointed this out, which is why I am. Zeus's father is Cronos (or Kronos, depending on your spelling). It was not Chronos.
As it was pointed out, Cronos / Kronos / Saturn was a Titan and father to the Olympians. What was not pointed out was that while Cronos was the "master of the univers," life in general prospered under him. The lands were bountiful with food and animals. Mankind wanted for nothing, and because of this killing and murder were ideas unknown to man at the time. (From what I understand, man didn't even kill animals at this time, but could actually talk to them.)
When Zeus came along and overthrew his father, the world (and universe) was thrown into chaos. Lands dried up; man became desperate as what was once bountiful became barren. And then man learned to kill animals to feed themselves (which is why man can no longer communicate with animals), and they learned greed and pettiness which taught them murder.
Now, as for Chronos. Depending on what myths you wish to follow, Chronos was a magician, demon, demi-god, and/or deity. But no matter what you called him, his title was Lord of Time. Without Chronos, Time would not flow steadily forward for man as it does. Time would be in chaos, moving forward and backward at a whim...if not having all in Time existing simultaneously at once.
Now, on to the original point of the discussion. While I do think that most of CoH does follow the Greek Pathos/Mythology, there are similarities with other pantheons. Such as (the aforementioned) Nordic/Viking mythology.
Odin, who bychance can also cast lightning bolts, was the All Father of the Nordic Gods. Some say he supposedly walks Midgard (Earth) in the guise of man since Ragnarok occurred, learning from man what his mistakes were.
Also, Thor was known as the defender of the Earth and Heavens (Midgard & Asgard). And lighting was one of his instruments of warfare (along with his hammer), which he also had control of (along with thunder).
I am not saying that Statesman is descended from / avatar or incarnate of either Odin of Thor, but there are similarities. Of course, these parallels are found between the different mythos themselves. Go figure. 
(BTW - if this post seems a bit incoherant...I've been reading this thread over the last 6-7 hours at work. I may have lost a bit of my train of thought over the time...hehe. Please be forgiving. ) 
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* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
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only one problem......that lightning bolt on the figure is on ALL Heroclix figures. It shows how many attacks that figure can make on his turn. just FYI
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I was not referring to his attacks. I was referring to Quake and Pulse Wave. I baked those into the design of his dial to represent his ability to call upon the Lightning of Zeus.
~M
I was under the impression that while Zeus did make life harder for mankind, it was as a response to the actions of prometheus. After prometheus' first transgression against Zeus teaching mankind to cheat zeus of some of his sacrifices, he mand the earth less bountifull and removed fire from the world. After prometheus restored fire, Zeus exacted punishment on him and also saw to the creation of pandora and her box which lead to all the evils present in the world today, (pandora was made wife to One of prometheus's brothers)
I think the judeo-christian 'archangels' are already represented - kheldians. You can certainly draw parallels, at least - A race of energy beings [conveniently split by dark/light.] that have been fighting a war amongst themselves for aeons, yet among physical races is the battle truly fought...?
Yeah. Zeus and other mythology can be the incarnates - we've already got angels in the game, both fallen and otherwise.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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I think the judeo-christian 'archangels' are already represented - kheldians. You can certainly draw parallels, at least - A race of energy beings [conveniently split by dark/light.] that have been fighting a war amongst themselves for aeons, yet among physical races is the battle truly fought...?
Yeah. Zeus and other mythology can be the incarnates - we've already got angels in the game, both fallen and otherwise.
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aliens are not archangels man. kheldians are not really light/dark. they are liberated slave race vs. former oppressors. one just happens to shoot white energy and the other shoots purple energy.
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* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
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only one problem......that lightning bolt on the figure is on ALL Heroclix figures. It shows how many attacks that figure can make on his turn. just FYI
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I was not referring to his attacks. I was referring to Quake and Pulse Wave. I baked those into the design of his dial to represent his ability to call upon the Lightning of Zeus.
~M
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Yeah, Incarnate refers to a deity. Statesman is "Zeus Incarnate" Zeus in the Flesh. Zeus inhabits the body of Statesman.
Likely hades inhabits the body of Lord Recluse.
Hrmm, this might be off topic, but, if statesman is zeus incarnate and whatnot, then, wouldn't he use his powers to make the mortals (players) happy? Or would he rather teach mortals (players) that he is has more power than us and shows it (nerfs)? I'd say the second appears to be showing, but hopefully it's more of a balance, since devs and possible deities do tend to mess up and try to correct their mistakes (hopefully), since, if a deity pisses too many mortals off, they'd quit worshipping said deity, same could be said of devs and gamers, but, I don't see how statesman could be zeus incarnate, (ingame character wise, the character statesman, not the person in real life), considering what happened in the May comic book, or it could point towards how every deity can fall (either by being forgotten or dying).... maybe I'm just getting everything wrong that I've said this entire post, I hope I am, except for balancing and making people happy in the long run.
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* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
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only one problem......that lightning bolt on the figure is on ALL Heroclix figures. It shows how many attacks that figure can make on his turn. just FYI
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I was not referring to his attacks. I was referring to Quake and Pulse Wave. I baked those into the design of his dial to represent his ability to call upon the Lightning of Zeus.
~M
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oooooooo....didnt know that. My fault 
Well thats cool.....so this all could be more true then. Honestly i thought it was just some wild off the wall theory. Thanks M
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* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
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only one problem......that lightning bolt on the figure is on ALL Heroclix figures. It shows how many attacks that figure can make on his turn. just FYI
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I was not referring to his attacks. I was referring to Quake and Pulse Wave. I baked those into the design of his dial to represent his ability to call upon the Lightning of Zeus.
~M
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I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen Statesman do anything other than fly around and punch stuff or tear stuff apart. It's clear he's hugely tough and insanely strong, and can fly. I don't remember much else.
Hmm.
there was a pre-release video of COH, In which I seem to recall him firing an energy bolt at a 5th coloumn mech.
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* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
[/ QUOTE ]
only one problem......that lightning bolt on the figure is on ALL Heroclix figures. It shows how many attacks that figure can make on his turn. just FYI
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I was not referring to his attacks. I was referring to Quake and Pulse Wave. I baked those into the design of his dial to represent his ability to call upon the Lightning of Zeus.
~M
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Yeah, Incarnate refers to a deity. Statesman is "Zeus Incarnate" Zeus in the Flesh. Zeus inhabits the body of Statesman.
Likely hades inhabits the body of Lord Recluse.
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It's more likely that it's Ares the god of war inhabiting Recluse.
A lot of people assume Hades is evil and nasty because he rules over tartarus where those that were sinful are punished for all eternity. What people often forget is that he also ruled over the Alesian (sp?) feilds where those that were good, live happily and peacefuly in the after life.
Hades was just the caretaker of souls, he wasn't exactly the Greek version of Satan. Hades didn't tempt people into sinning, quite the opposite probably... less work for him.
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I think the judeo-christian 'archangels' are already represented - kheldians. You can certainly draw parallels, at least - A race of energy beings [conveniently split by dark/light.] that have been fighting a war amongst themselves for aeons, yet among physical races is the battle truly fought...?
Yeah. Zeus and other mythology can be the incarnates - we've already got angels in the game, both fallen and otherwise.
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aliens are not archangels man. kheldians are not really light/dark. they are liberated slave race vs. former oppressors. one just happens to shoot white energy and the other shoots purple energy.
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Just making a mythology connection. 'Aliens aren't Archangels?' Somehow I think an 'angel' in the literal sense would be far different than we imagine it to be, and definetely alien in a literal sense. -
And, Frankly, I think 'archangels' in the term you're thinking would be better left out of the game.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
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only one problem......that lightning bolt on the figure is on ALL Heroclix figures. It shows how many attacks that figure can make on his turn. just FYI
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I was not referring to his attacks. I was referring to Quake and Pulse Wave. I baked those into the design of his dial to represent his ability to call upon the Lightning of Zeus.
~M
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More on baking figureines will be revealed in the upcoming novel, "The Web of Arachnos," coming out this fall.
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Yeah, Incarnate refers to a deity. Statesman is "Zeus Incarnate" Zeus in the Flesh. Zeus inhabits the body of Statesman.
Likely hades inhabits the body of Lord Recluse
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A couple of problems with this theory. First, Zeus was really no less evil than Hades. He was lecherous, vengeful, petty, selfish and had very little self-control. Heck, he literally threw his son Hephasteus [sic] off of Olympus for some minor transgression, resulting in the god of the forge being maimed for life.
Likewise, Hades wasn't really evil. He would occasionally allow souls to be released from his realm, or at least give them the chance. Moreover, he not only rules over Tartarus (the greek version of hell) but also the Elysian Fields (the paradise of the afterlife). He and Zues were brothers who each had a dominion over a third of the realms under their control: Zues - The Sky, Posieden: The Oceans, and Hades: The Underworld.
I, of course, haven't received the second issue yet. So if Statesman is connected with Zues, it's likely only that he received his power, not that he is an 'incarnation'. I don't recall any connection between Hades and Spiders, and he seems to have only one obvious follower with 'Death' like powers (Ghost Widow), so I'm not at all convinced Lord Recluse is connected with Hades. Time will tell though. Should be an interesting ride.
Being an (amateur) student of Greek mythology, a hobby that dates back, for me, some 20 years, the only reference I can recall to spiders in Greek mythology is the story of Athena and Arachne.
In the story, Arachne challenged Athena to a weaving competition. Arachne won the challenge, by weaving a tapestry of the Gods depicting them participating in all sorts of wanton acts. This angered Athena (both for the content of the tapestry, and because Arachne's work was superior to her own).
Athena destroyed Arachne's tapestry. Depressed and resentful, Arachne attempted to kill herself (by hanging, if I recall correctly). Athena prevented her death, and turned her into a spider (aka, a "weaver").
While Athena was a goddess of wisdom, a patron of warriors and the arts, like all the Greek gods, had a darker/selfish side. For example, according to the Illiad, it was Athena (by the name Pallas Athene, her first recorded name), who walked between the Trojan and Greek army, inspiring a Trojan (Pandaros, if I recall correctly), to fire an arrow at the Greeks, breaking a fragile peace and re-igniting the Trojan war.
This might be a stretch, and perhaps I'm trying to read too much into this, but this is the only spider-related story I seem to recall from Greek mythology. I'll research it a bit when I get the chance, but perhaps Lord Recluse is related somehow to Athena (representing her warrior side, her prideful side).
Perhaps Statesman merely uses the power of Zeus, ala Don Blake in the earliest issues of Thor being a mortal who was able to use Thor's powers. Later the Blake personality was disposed of and the god was given preeminence. Might Statesman be rather like this early version of Thor? Or like Billy Batson, able to channel and use the power of the gods, yet still maintain his humanity.
I also agree with the point that the Zeus=good, Hades=Evil idea is far off base. One of the things which is truly challenging to the judeo-christian mindset to grasp about the ancient Greeks was that they did not really believe in good and evil as absolute values as we do. All the gods could be alternately petty, cruel, generous, or benign. Often appeasing one god might offend another. The Greeks believed in honor, and this was the principle most like "good," but was more about excellence in combat and fair play than deep moral issues.
I don't recall any stories about Zeus being a super patriot for the united states, either, Chort, so they probably won't have to be exact copies of the gods they represent.
That's assuming of course, that Lord Recluse comes from Greek Mythology. It's unlikely that the incarnates will be the embodiements of only greek gods. They'll probably be any gods, so Lord Recluse could come from any mythology.
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* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
[/ QUOTE ]
only one problem......that lightning bolt on the figure is on ALL Heroclix figures. It shows how many attacks that figure can make on his turn. just FYI
[/ QUOTE ]
I was not referring to his attacks. I was referring to Quake and Pulse Wave. I baked those into the design of his dial to represent his ability to call upon the Lightning of Zeus.
~M
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Yeah, Incarnate refers to a deity. Statesman is "Zeus Incarnate" Zeus in the Flesh. Zeus inhabits the body of Statesman.
Likely hades inhabits the body of Lord Recluse.
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Ugh. C'mon? Zeus is in States? Please tell me this isnt so. First the lame Kheldians and then this?
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Hrmm, this might be off topic, but, if statesman is zeus incarnate and whatnot, then, wouldn't he use his powers to make the mortals (players) happy? Or would he rather teach mortals (players) that he is has more power than us and shows it (nerfs)? I'd say the second appears to be showing, but hopefully it's more of a balance, since devs and possible deities do tend to mess up and try to correct their mistakes (hopefully), since, if a deity pisses too many mortals off, they'd quit worshipping said deity, same could be said of devs and gamers, but, I don't see how statesman could be zeus incarnate, (ingame character wise, the character statesman, not the person in real life), considering what happened in the May comic book, or it could point towards how every deity can fall (either by being forgotten or dying).... maybe I'm just getting everything wrong that I've said this entire post, I hope I am, except for balancing and making people happy in the long run.
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When talking about the Greek deities, it helps to understand that worship is appeasement, not always adoration. If Zeus did something to hurt his worshippers, then they'd better work twice as hard to keep it from happening again. It's probably their fault.
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Likely hades inhabits the body of Lord Recluse.
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Why Hades? Hades was never the enemy of Zeus, never, not even once. Poseidon was more likely to oppose Zeus than Hades, but the closest Zeus had to an ongoing enemy was his own wife. All of his other enemies had been conclusively defeated before humanity existed.
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One of the things which is truly challenging to the judeo-christian mindset to grasp about the ancient Greeks was that they did not really believe in good and evil as absolute values as we do.
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That is a complete load of codswallop. I've read a sufficient amount of Victorian-era antiquarian classicisists' work to know quite certainly that those very "judeo-christian" scholars had no problem at all with such concepts. You are merely projecting your own narrow prejudices regarding those who happen to be either "Judeo" or "Christian".
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His other big nemesis, 'Arachnos', has a masculine version of the name 'Arachne', a mytological figure. Arachne was a mortal woman who challenged Athena to a contest of weaving and won-- with a tapestry that depicted Athena's father Zeus seducing various young women. Athena took offense at her for her presumptiousness and arrogance and cursed her to feel shame and guilt for offending the gods. Arachne suicided in her greif, but Athena took pity on her and changed her into a spider so that she and her descendants could be master weavers for all eternity.
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You know, this would be a tragedy.
Because then Lord Recluse would really be the Motherfather of Villiany.