Incarnates: Mythology Connection?

Maybe this has already been touched upon, but it's late and I don't want to go through 20 pages. I do apologize.

Perhaps he's not an avatar of any god at all. Maybe the gods turned him into the incarnation of an ideal. Statesman could be "Justice Incarnate", "Heroism Incarnate", "Patriotism Incarnate", or even plain "America Incarnate". Reichsman and Tyrant "Power Incarnate" or "Tyranny Incarnate" and Lord Recluse "Megalomania Incarnate" "Egotism Incarnate" or even "Freaky-Spider-Thingy Incarnate".

I also like the idea that in order to maintain cosmic balance, Recluse and States were originally the same human being, but each facet of his duality was split and Incarnated. This could all be some Taoist lesson seemingly gone too far (hence the whole "going to the East" thing).

Just like to point something out here: we know of only one god in the setting that's given out this kind of power (Zeus, to States), but not why or to what extent beyond "a lot". We do, in contrast, know of several other gods beyond the Greek pantheon, or even the "modern" Pantheon represented by Magic SOs.

Similarly, the terminology isn't avatar or living embodiment, it's "incarnate" - in flesh. We have as much reason to believe that Zeus is returned in Statesman's form as we do that Statesman could simply have refined his abilities and techniques to their distilled essence, thus making the power truly his own.

Further, without knowing how Incarnates get implemented (do prexisting characters become Incarnates, or do you unlock the AT as an option for new ones?), we're at a loss for anything, really. If we don't know whether magic origins are inherent to the AT, we're really only blindly guessing at everything involving them.

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Yes, very true. What many modern folks have a hard time understanding is that the ancient Greek and Roman gods were not assumed to be "perfect". To my knowledge, this is a Judeo/Christian thing more than anything else.

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It was long a Greek concept before Christianity came along The Stoics, for example, tended to insist that a god had to be a perfect being, thus the Olympians could not be gods. This was also true of the epicureans and some of the schools that came from Aristotle's students. Of these, Stoicism had the greatest influence. Likewise, various mystery religions seem to have taught that the very anthropomorphic stories of deities were simply "dumbed down" for the masses and that the actual gods were far more transcendent.

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I believe that The Monocle was speaking in regards to "the masses"...and not the scholars. Scholars are educated people, they would understand such differences between societies & cultures. "The masses" may not.

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So, then the presumption is that MMORPG players are, by and large, very far from being "the scholars" and simply to be presumed an undifferentiated part of "the masses"?

Even the Hades and Persephone thing wasn't evil. The meaning may have been warped by changes in languages. I don't remember all of the specific details, but I believe in an anthropology class that I had, that Hades had approached Zeus and discussed marrying Persephone and the methods of it were a bit uncommon but perfectly within that culture. The bride accepting food at the feast sealed the marriage (which is likely where the bride and groom feeding each other cake after the wedding comes from).
Additionally, Hades originally wanted the underworld anyways, so while he "got the bum luck" it's what he would have chosen anyways. Eternal suffering isn't the only depiction of the place Hades that I've heard either. There were different sections of it. If I understand correctly of course (not being from that era personally) they were divided into people who were decietful, people who were average, and the great warriors.
For the lightning bolts, I understand that Hephestus (Vulcun in Roman) crafted those for him, which would have been after Zeus overthrew his father. But that would vary by the story as well, because stories changed by local tellers to highlight their city, patron, etc to be more important.
And while hashing things out about Mythologies, it may be worth understanding that according to the definition Anthropologists MUST work within, Christianity falls under mythology.
My understanding of Islam (limited, not being of that group) is that they trace their history back to Abraham's first son Ismael who was to be sacrificed, not Isaac who is his second son (in Islam)
Vikings: the mindset of the Norse groups varied tremendously depending on who you talked to. The modern depiction of vikings is largely created by Christians who were quite zealous with hatred for people of other religions. One explanation of the viking raids began when their regular trade partners refused to trade with the Norse any longer because good Christians don't do trade with heathens. So they took what they were going to trade for anyways and left their payment on the beach. Eventually they just decided that bringing their payment really wasn't practical anymore. They also studied battle and didn't hide behind trees because those who died in glorious battle would be invited to the halls of Valhalla.

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For all known facts, Judaism adopted the idea of the good/evil duality during the time of Babylonian captivity. There, they were exposed to Persian Zoroasrianism which centered around the duality of light/good as embodied by Zoroaster (Zarathustra) and dark/evil as embodied by Ahrimaan.

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Which drew from the same Indo-European sources as did the Greek material. The ancient Greeks had very highly developed sense of virtue and of evil. They were not a society decaf sugarfree-sweetener soy-milk latte sipping, ricecake-nibbling undergraduate "intellectuals" who congratulated themselves on their moral relativism. They might have had a different moral code than did we, but they had one, and it could be quite strict in some matters, quite un-enlightened and absolutist.

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And the reason the Vikings became especially villified in the literature that came out of the time was that they were one of the last remaining pagan civilizations with any strength.

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The word for this is "rubbish". The Persians were still strong, and still pagan, for example.

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I was not trying to denigrate Judeo-christian values. I was merely pointing out that absolute values of good and evil are an inherent part of this value system.

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They are not unique to this system. The Classical Greeks also had them. They also had relativists, just like we do, and the relativists were, oddly enough, fairly popular among the educated and wealthy, except for when they made convenient scapegoats (see also "Apologia").

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That brother is a character I play on City of Heroes. His name is Ephemetheus.

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Is he a bit of a doofus who only thinks after the fact, hence the name?

On the whole Viking issue. Some people already said similar stuff, but I thought I'd spell it out a bit more clearly.

The way I learned it in school is that the term 'Viking' actually refers to an activity and those partaking in it rather than a people. The people would for the most part be the Danes. Those nice people who used to drop by England every once in a while, with a central king and a more or less organized army.

'Going Viking' or whatever the proper term was meant to go on a raid. While certain people subsisted on plunder etc. -much like, say, Corsairs in the Mediterranean or Buccaneers in the West Indies- they did not represent their people, or their culture. Or they did in as much as any other pirate did. Oh yes, to translate the term Viking into English, you supposedly only need to replace the first I with a U and it should be pretty clear.

The movie The 13th Warrior and more so the book it is based on, Eaters of the Dead actually render a relatively accurate picture of the Norse and dispel the odd prejudice -- though I can't of course verify the Neanderthal part.

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For all known facts, Judaism adopted the idea of the good/evil duality during the time of Babylonian captivity. There, they were exposed to Persian Zoroasrianism which centered around the duality of light/good as embodied by Zoroaster (Zarathustra) and dark/evil as embodied by Ahrimaan.

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Which drew from the same Indo-European sources as did the Greek material. The ancient Greeks had very highly developed sense of virtue and of evil. They were not a society decaf sugarfree-sweetener soy-milk latte sipping, ricecake-nibbling undergraduate "intellectuals" who congratulated themselves on their moral relativism. They might have had a different moral code than did we, but they had one, and it could be quite strict in some matters, quite un-enlightened and absolutist.

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Oh, certainly. I don't think you can have any form of cultural or social unit, clannish, tribal or otherwise, without some idea of guidelines. As soon as they surpass the practical and obvious, you enter the territory of morals. But there was one poster who suggested that the whole good/evil duality was essentially Christian in origin.

I just meant to point out that they inherited it from the Jews who in turn copied it from the Babylonians. Zoroastrianism in turn didn't come to pass in a cultural and ideological vacuum I would assume, not to mention that the Jews already had moral codes before that time. I haven't read the bible in a while, so I can't recall in which order they come up, but there have always also been rules for ethical behaviour in there, starting with 'don't eat from that tree', basically.


That said, I think the argument was not made for or against ethics. I believe the point was that while yes, Zeus in particular often acted unethically -I'd call him a spoiled brat- the Greeks obviously had a detailed moral code, they lacked the division of 'utter evil' and 'utter good' with little to no gray areas in between as many branches of modern Christianity teach it.

Rather, as suggested by many Greek tragedies -Antigone being the most exemplary one I can think of- their conflict was, as Kant would put it, one of duty vs. inclination. I'd assume that at least some people reading this thread have no idea what I'm talking about so let me recap the story of Antigone briefly:


Antigone resides in the city of Thebes. She is engaged to the son of the city's ruler and having the time of her life. Her brother in turn is an officer (general even?) in the army of an enemy city-state that eventually attacks Thebes. The attack is repelled, and Creon, the ruler of Thebes, declares that as retribution for the vile attack, the dead bodies of the attacking army are to be left outside the city walls for the wild animals to maim and desecrate them. Anybody who breaks this ruling is to be punished by death.

However, by custom, Antigone is responsible for seeing her dead buried properly. It is her duty to do so. Conversely, the ruling of Creon and the penalty of death do of course scare her. She wants to live, happily, with her fiance. Hence it is her inclination not to do so. Others around her both recognize her duty but present their own arguments as to why she should not break the law and suffer the penalty.

While we could probably attribute the labels of good and evil to this dilemma, we will very probably have to admit that there are good arguments made for either case. Creon's ruling, while harsh, is understandable, and there would be no direct shame in heeding it. One might say that Antigone's brother brought this fate upon himself and she might be justified to -literally- let him rot.

How she chooses in the end is of no importance to the overall question. The main point is that she is presented with a no-win situation and simply has to make the decision that allows her to achieve peace of mind despite the consequences.


If anybody is still reading this, thank you. I know it's getting a big long at this point but I think most people reading this thread have a heightened attention span. I think the example illustrates my point. Ethics, yes, but the focus is more on the personal decisions of humans in the face of ethical dilemma than whether they chose 'good' or 'evil'. The essential problem is very probably -as has also been pointed out- that both the moralities as well as the laws we grow up in are mostly shaped by Judeo-Christian ethics and many of us will therefore find it harder to interface with a divergent moralistic structure.

Simply said, lumping things into 'good' and 'evil' comes easy to us because we're used to it. Other cultures had different ideas. A modern-day man however (Statesman?), imparted with ancient power, would very probably be bound by the ethical system he knows rather than the belief systems tied to that old power.


There, done. Hope any of this was understandable.

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Heck, he literally threw his son Hephasteus [sic] off of Olympus for some minor transgression, resulting in the god of the forge being maimed for life.

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Actually, Hera was the one who threw him off Olympus. Hera was obsessed with trying to have an absolutely beautiful child to impress Zeus so he'd stop screwing around with mortals. When she had the less than comely Hephaestus, she was so disgusted with him that she threw him off of Olympus. He didn't die from the fall, of course, being a god, but he was eternally crippled due to his legs being broken.

So recap: Zeus=Pretty good guy besides the adultery, and not to mention a pretty good father (Helped Heracles out even while Hera WAS FREAKING TRYING TO KILL HIM, kept the still fetal Dionysus in his leg, making him be born a god, etc. etc.)

Hera=Manipulative, jealous, and THROWER OF BABIES OFF OF MOUNTAINS.

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The movie The 13th Warrior and more so the book it is based on, Eaters of the Dead actually render a relatively accurate picture of the Norse and dispel the odd prejudice -- though I can't of course verify the Neanderthal part.

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GAH!

Ok Eaters of the Dead is based (in fact the first couple of chapters are pretty much verbatim copies) of a handful of scrolls from Ibn al Fahladan's (sp?) journal. The rest is all Chrighton, which is not bad at all. (Ok. It's all Crighton readapting Beowulf which is an interesting enough idea). The movie, while one of my favorites, is not faithful to the novel and much less to the culture. The costumes are pretty inaccurate throughout. There's a guy in a kilt for gods' sakes!

The term "Viking" comes form many sources. There was a man named Viking who was a pirate. It was also the name of a river and it was used as a verb as well. Liken them to Bikers. Bikers are a group within Western society, just as Vikings were a group within Norse society (usually men with no inheritance on account of being 7th or 8th sons who had to turn to tradin' and raidin' to make a name for themselves). By no means were all Norsemen Vikings and the two terms need to be separated. Picture how irritating it would be if a thousand years form now, people referred to all Westerners as "Bikers". Not to mention confusing.

Lastly, Norsemen weren't exclusively Danish. Denmark, Sweden and Norway have all taken turns owning each other, and Iceland was a colony formed in large part by refugees fleeing form Harald Fair Hair.

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Ehhhh, I think you've read too many silly stories.
While there were indeed viking raiders during the 8th-11th century the majority of their trips abroad were mainly for trade. Viking traders sailing as far as Constantinopel (modern day Istanbul) to trade fur, amber and other goods for the goods of the continent (such as silk and jewelry).

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Wait wait wait.... are you telling me that Istanbul was Constantinopel, now it's Istanbul, not Constantinopel?

But I have a date in Constantinopel...

Then you'll be waiting in Istanbul.

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Yeah, Incarnate refers to a deity. Statesman is "Zeus Incarnate" Zeus in the Flesh. Zeus inhabits the body of Statesman.

Likely hades inhabits the body of Lord Recluse

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A couple of problems with this theory. First, Zeus was really no less evil than Hades. He was lecherous, vengeful, petty, selfish and had very little self-control. Heck, he literally threw his son Hephasteus [sic] off of Olympus for some minor transgression, resulting in the god of the forge being maimed for life.

Likewise, Hades wasn't really evil. He would occasionally allow souls to be released from his realm, or at least give them the chance. Moreover, he not only rules over Tartarus (the greek version of hell) but also the Elysian Fields (the paradise of the afterlife). He and Zues were brothers who each had a dominion over a third of the realms under their control: Zues - The Sky, Posieden: The Oceans, and Hades: The Underworld.

I, of course, haven't received the second issue yet. So if Statesman is connected with Zues, it's likely only that he received his power, not that he is an 'incarnation'. I don't recall any connection between Hades and Spiders, and he seems to have only one obvious follower with 'Death' like powers (Ghost Widow), so I'm not at all convinced Lord Recluse is connected with Hades. Time will tell though. Should be an interesting ride.

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Hepheastus wasn't Zeus Son. Hera bore him without help from Zeus in revenge for Zeus bearing Athena without Hera's help. Sometimes this is said to be why Hepheastus was born Lame. In some stories it is Hera who tosses him off of Olympus because of his Handicap. Other stories Zeus tossed him off because he intervenes in a fight between Zeus and Hera.

(Hephaestus also created the first woman, Pandora. Pandora was given to, Epimetheus (Prometheus Brother), as his wife. Her dowry was a jar filled with evils (she was told never to open it, but she did), thereby afflicting men with all of the evils therein.)

Prometheus - Foresight
Epimetheus - Hindsight

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I believe that The Monocle was speaking in regards to "the masses"...and not the scholars. Scholars are educated people, they would understand such differences between societies & cultures. "The masses" may not.

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So, then the presumption is that MMORPG players are, by and large, very far from being "the scholars" and simply to be presumed an undifferentiated part of "the masses"?

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... does it take special knowledge to buy a computer game? Funny, the store clerk didn't ask me any questions or request a copy of my diploma.

In a word, yes, players of video games are part of the masses. Sorry for the bad news. Everyone is part of the masses unless they act to distinguish themselves from the masses. I was discussing this very topic with my old friend last Saturday... it's called the path of least resistance. In North America, it generally equates to: go to school, get a job, find a spouse, buy a home, have some kids, retire, die of old age. Being a scholar or an entrepreneur or a leader requires more work and focus than the vast majority of people are willing to put forward.

I do like how you tried to make the comment personal. It's a common tactic, slightly underhanded but well-played. In case anyone missed the point, Dogface tries to reveal Cronniss_S' implication that MMORPG players (therefore everyone on the forum) are an undifferentiated part of the masses. By this revelation, Dogface implies that Cronniss_S is not just insulting Dogface by saying he's not unique and special and all those other politically correct theraputic meaningless 'compliments', he's also insulting everyone who plays CoH. If it wasn't so obvious, it'd be a nice trick. Implication or accusation of personal attack is always the first step towards a flame-fest. Let's just step back and at least make an attempt to be civil.

On the issue of presumption, yeah, it's a pretty common tool. Cronniss_S correctly presumes that all MMORPG players are part of the masses. I suppose he could scan through every account in the game to see if there are any scholars though that would be very time-consuming. I suppose he could err on the side of kiss-a$$ and just assume everyone who plays a MMO is a scholar with several degrees and publications under their belts but that's really hard to believe. I personally agree with his presumption that the vast majority of people who play this game (as well as other MMOs) are Average Joes and Janes.

Should we be taking a census?

what does un-enlightened mean?

Good posts Hyperion. I really should read more classical greek stories.

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Anyway, I'm interested in the answer to this. Arawn definitely applies but he did say Manannan Mac Lir, which is the Irish version of the name. Arawn is one of the Welsh psychopomps so his expected answer might be different.

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I just wanted to compliment you on slipping the word "psychopomp" into relatively casual conversation.

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Well, this really is the only kind of topic where that word would fit. I must admit that I've always been a little captivated by the concept and was pleased to find that the concept had a word to describe it; I use it whenever possible.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think psychopomps are particularly pagan in origin. I'd like to read Dante's Divine Comedy one day. I believe in Judeo-Christian thought, when people die, they get judged and transported in an instant... or is there a waiting period in Purgatory first... hmm, for some reason, I've got Muzak humming through my mind I have read the Tibetan Book of the Dead and there's no psychopomp figure, unless you consider the person chosen to read the Book of the Dead as you die but essentially, after death, consciousness just disintegrates.

Anyway, I think the major religions have lost the idea of the psychopomp... hmm, wait a tic, I wonder if Uriel counts as a psychopomp? Isn't he the angel of death?

Me too. I'm no scholar like Jack. I did go to university (Concordia in Montreal) for Religion/Philosophy but I became a PnP addict/Club-hopper and dropped out. If I'd had more discipline, I might have had a similar resume to Jack's... although up here in Canada, I think that means I could start as a manager in MacDonald's, not lead game designer, hehe.

I seriously got into Celtic myth as a hobby and haven't touched the Greek since I was a kid but it made enough of an impression that I can recall many of the myths.

Mythology is very cool... in some cases, it's almost like looking into the collective psyche of a culture. In fact, I recall an article I read a few months back. The author proposed the idea that Ares was the only truly evil god in the Greek mythos and that was mainly because while the Greeks loved enlightened ideas like democracy, etc, history reveals that they were also particularly bloodthirsty and Ares may have been the manifestation of Greek self-hate in regards to their secret love of war. Good read.

To be honest, I think that while Statesman is and incarnate and got his power from a magic fountain, and somehow Zeus is involved, I do not think they will implement the incarnates=god avatar theory in game. Delving further into Greek mythos is not going to get us anywhere further in understanding the AT. Most likely you will pick the incarnate AT and there may be certain sets of incarnates. You as a player will have to assign a origin and how it fits. More than likey in your bio. Incarnates can be anything you want them to be then. The main theme of incarnates however is; they embody some concept or virtue. This way the entire AT is open to diversity.

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Also, if we go by this theory of divine inspiration, then we don't even have to assume that Recluse is inspired by a Greek deity. Of course, the helmet design would suggest it, but it might just as well be that he is an Avatar of Kali or Shiva (as the extra 'arms' would suggest), and there may well be others out there. Once you include obscure sects from every religion that has ever existed, the number of Gods becomes Legion.

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Best idea I've seen as to the "god" behind Lord Recluse. I was trying to think of who it might be and did not recall any spider gods other than the Trickster. But Kali or Shiva, those are excellent choices.

What powers do we know the Lord Recluse has other than Super Strength?

Okay, bad wording on my part. Yes, the kilt in 13th Warrior is pretty... out there.

But overall, as far as portrayal of Vikings in other movies goes, you pretty much get them with horned helmets and bear furs exclusively. Not to mention that they seem to live on their longboats all year long. 13th Warrior is still a few dozen times above those kinds of things.

The book is a different matter entirely. Hence my wording of the book doing a better job at dispelling prejudices.

It might be just as well if the gods utilized in the incarnate mythology were created for the game, thus sidestepping all of this debate. Maybe the story could involve some sort of archaeological excavation and the discovery of a whole new mythology.