Flight.. The 5th slowest travel power..
By
AngryMonkey,
Posted on: 2005-01-11 23:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Easy answer to this one. Even if fly could (if 6 slotted) reach the same speed as super speed you would still have the vast majority taking super speed because they want Hasten. Hasten is pretty much a must-have power for a lot of builds. Unless someone wants to waste 2 power pools, if they want Hasten they will take Super Speed.
Remove Hasten from the speed pool, make it inheirent and replace it in the speed pool with something else (maybe a defensive power like Dart (doding things quickly)) and then you might have reason to think people would take Fly over SS if the speeds were similar.
I have Fly, but it's only two-slotted and I always switch to Hover (which is 6-slotted, 3 Flight/3 Def)
in combat (L 38 BS/SR Scrapper). Part of the reason I like using Hover in combat is trying to find the
"sweet spot" above a group of enemies that will allow my PBAoE attack to hit as
many of them as possible.
Comparison of travel speeds or the issue of arriving last to a mission are of little consequence to me
personally. I figure if I'm in a group that is too impatient to wait for me, they'll kick me out -- not
that big a deal.
The main reason I chose Fly was conceptual. I enjoy trying to match my powers as closely as possible
with my original concepts for heroes.
I like the idea of ditching 'Group Fly' entirely from the Flight Pool and replacing it with
'Quantum Fly', i.e. a Fly that is much faster than the current version (a special effect to go with
it would be neat also). I have nothing against the concept of Group Fly, or heroes that may
be using it, it just seems to be of very limited usefulness.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Easy answer to this one. Even if fly could (if 6 slotted) reach the same speed as super speed you would still have the vast majority taking super speed because they want Hasten. Hasten is pretty much a must-have power for a lot of builds. Unless someone wants to waste 2 power pools, if they want Hasten they will take Super Speed.
Remove Hasten from the speed pool, make it inheirent and replace it in the speed pool with something else (maybe a defensive power like Dart (doding things quickly)) and then you might have reason to think people would take Fly over SS if the speeds were similar.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm talking based on my assumptions of the population of CoH as a whole, not just the people on the boards. I agree that a large number of people who visit these boards as well as others informed in other ways would still take super speed because of the Hasten route and free up other power choices.
My main assumption is that if most of the population was exclusively taking superspeed instead of all the other travel powers, the devs would modify something to have a better distribution in game of travel powers being used (NOTE: If superspeed is currently being used far more than all other travel powers, I'm very disappointed the devs have done nothing to balance this out more. They are the only ones that know for sure since they are the only ones with access to the data). I'm also assuming the speed of flight is a reason a lot of people don't take it and pre-reqs play into the decision making process but far less than they are for the people on the these boards.
That's how came up with the above statement. Like most things on these boards, just an opinion of what might happen.
[ QUOTE ]
Super speeders are definitely the most noticable (animation and sound makes sure of that).
[/ QUOTE ]
That's definitely true. The placement always plays a role too... SSers are always right there on the ground, in your face. They usually use roadways as well. Teleporters, well... disappear every time they use their power. Superjumpers usually disappear behind buildings after a jump or two. Fliers are out of sight (although I've noticed more fliers since taking flight myself... the airways are definitely more crowded than they look from the ground).
Re: Zarthos and CaptainPaladin
One can't make generalizations about the CoH populace based on a thread from the boards. As Zarthos pointed out, since it is not a random sample, it is not representative of the populace as a whole. Of the tiny minority of the player base that posts on the boards, an even smaller fraction noticed and posted in this thread. They chose to post because they had an opinion about the topic at hand. The sample is not random and is not representative of the population as a whole.
If back in November, someone had posted on an internet message board "Who should be the next president of the United States?" and 50 posters responded "Ralph Nader," should he have been made president?
That is not to say that the opinions that people post on the boards should be ignored. Rather, the devs can not make decisions solely based on the boards. They are one source of information among many. The devs have access to information that we, the players, do not. If they wanted to, they could check and see exactly what percentage of the population has each travel power. If they saw that people weren't taking fly very much and there were complaints on the boards, then perhaps they might think about changing the power.
I'm not saying don't voice your opinion. It is an important part of the process. Just don't make generalizations based on what is posted here. It weakens your overall argument rather than supporting it.
I personally agree that fly needs some love, but I think any changes should wait until after issue 4. I'd like to see a scrapper with superspeed and hurdle in the pvp arena vs. a blaster with hover and fly before I fully agree that fly is the weakest travel power.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a scrapper with superspeed and hurdle in the pvp arena vs. a blaster with hover and fly before I fully agree that fly is the weakest travel power.
[/ QUOTE ]If the scrapper had fly and the blaster had super speed, who do you think would win?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a scrapper with superspeed and hurdle in the pvp arena vs. a blaster with hover and fly before I fully agree that fly is the weakest travel power.
[/ QUOTE ]If the scrapper had fly and the blaster had super speed, who do you think would win?
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that the Blaster has the advantage in both situations.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a scrapper with superspeed and hurdle in the pvp arena vs. a blaster with hover and fly before I fully agree that fly is the weakest travel power.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perfect example of why there are so many against PvP and sad to see it coming. If people think the nerfs and changes were bad to this point....we got a whole new universe of nerfs coming.
Easiest.
Safest.
*Coolest*.
I will always tend to take Fly for every single character of mine whose concept doesn't strongly demand for some other method of locomotion.
Of course I wouldn't *mind* for its acc debuff to be removed, its speed increased, and whatnot, but as far as I'm concerned, Fly is the definite #1 travel power as it is. There'd be even less reason to take any other travel powers ever.
Regarding all the posters who mention the 3 or 4 zones that SS sucks in...being handicapped in a few zones (SS) vs. being handicapped in all zones (Fly) isn't balanced.
A SSer can fight with their travel power on, try that with fly.
A SSer can keep up SS and stealth with no noticeable endurance drop, try that with fly.
A SSer can keep up SS and stealth, and fight, try that with fly.
A SSer doesn't have to slot it with extra slots (the power is that good), try that with fly.
And while I think hover is a very good power for combat, hover and fly don't compare with the sweet, sweet goodness of hasten and SS.
I don't have any additional slots in either of my characters with SS and they move very, very fast. One gets almost no aggro because it also has stealth running at the same time.
On the other hand, I added an extra slot on one of my characters with fly, filled both with flight speed enhancements and still fly as slow as an elephant with wings. Can't run any other toggle with it, so forget about stealthy flying, can't use it in combat because of the -acc (not that I think that should be changed I'm just pointing out differences). Yeah, I want this power. For why?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fly really is terrible for combat (due to the end usage and the accuracy debuff) and isn't all that great for travel either (it's sloooow).
[/ QUOTE ]
I was curious about this. Do people fight with Fly running? I usually switch to Hover while attacking and then switch back to Fly only to change where I'm Hovering.
[/ QUOTE ]
They don't if they're smart. That's kind of the problem to me. Teleport aside (since it isn't a toggle and has its own problems), SS and SJ are both useful in combat, as are their prerequisite powers, which can be used at the same time.
Fly isn't just "not useful." It's a downright disadvantage in combat... it has a huge endurance drain and a severe accuracy penalty.
My fear: people here are saying "please fix Fly, it isn't as good as the other good travel powers." I'm afraid Geko is going to hear, instead "Please nerf SJ/SS... they're better than fly."
[/ QUOTE ]
Its a sad day when we as players have to be paranoid of any dev paying attention to a power or AT. In this game, unfortunately, this usually means a nerf to the others to "bring them in line", as opposed to fixing the weak ones.
Oh, and if any datamining is done and posted I'd like to see it broken down in levels. 14-24, 24-34, 34-44, 44-50.
I'd be curious to see what % started with fly but respec'd it out.
Nathan, I understand what you're saying... however...
This is not just one thread. This subject comes up almost every day. I don't recall seeing many threads about superspeed being underpowered, or superjump being a gimp power next to flight. (Although I do see a few threads about teleport here, granted)
But flight speed comes up all the damn time. There are a LOT of people that agree that flight is too slow, and/or that the accuracy debuff should be taken out. It IS a concern for a lot of people. And seeing as how I often choose flight for my characters, I'd like to see some love payed to it.
(Now you may ask, why do you choose flight for so many characters?... My answer is simply for style. I make a lot of flight-inspired characters. If it wasn't for that, I would choose either SS or Superjump for every last one of them.)
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like this player has invested in 4 powers - 3 of which he choose, and most of which he has probably slotted more than 6, and he still cannot fly. How much more of an investment did he make compared to your 1 power? How much did he have to give up compared to you and he still cannot go vertical.
No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Concept, there are those of us out there that don't choose powers based on min/max equations. I don't mean to sound harsh but it seems rather unfair to make decisions about the game and powers based on how min/maxers and powergamers are going to react.
Just because a supersonic flight power exists does not mean that I would choose it for every character. Heck, Super Jump is about the coolest travel power in the game with it's speed, maneuverability, vertical component and the fact that it's just plain fun. But folks are still choosing the others. Flight, despite it's shortcomings is pretty popular. Even the clunky teleport has it's supporters. So despite the good, the bad and the ugly, folks are still using the powers and powersets that they want.
I don't think y'all should dismiss the idea of adding Supersonic Flight as a fifth power for the Flight pool or even replace Group Fly with it. You could give it a greater endurance drain and make it impossible to attack while it is active or better yet give it an altitude limitation. Basically Supersonic Flight can only be used above a certain altitude for safety reasons.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
Concept, there are those of us out there that don't choose powers based on min/max equations. I don't mean to sound harsh but it seems rather unfair to make decisions about the game and powers based on how min/maxers and powergamers are going to react.
[/ QUOTE ]Not really. In fact arguments of balance aren't for the min/maxers. A min/maxer will simply take the best choice and be happy with it being the best. Balance is important for those people who don't min/max, so they can be close to as powerful as their min/maxing brethern, without having to worry about all of the math.
In fact, if you want to get a good idea of what is balanced and what is not, min/maxers are the perfect place to look. They're like the canaries of this game, finding what's unbalanced long before the casual player gets around to it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Concept, there are those of us out there that don't choose powers based on min/max equations. I don't mean to sound harsh but it seems rather unfair to make decisions about the game and powers based on how min/maxers and powergamers are going to react.
[/ QUOTE ]Not really. In fact arguments of balance aren't for the min/maxers. A min/maxer will simply take the best choice and be happy with it being the best. Balance is important for those people who don't min/max, so they can be close to as powerful as their min/maxing brethern, without having to worry about all of the math.
In fact, if you want to get a good idea of what is balanced and what is not, min/maxers are the perfect place to look. They're like the canaries of this game, finding what's unbalanced long before the casual player gets around to it.
[/ QUOTE ]
While what you said is true I still feel it's wrong for developer decisions to be made based on how one particular group of the player base will react. The idea that something like supersonic flight would make the other travel powers useless is true only of min/maxers and powergamers and therefore isn't taking the gaming community as a whole into consideration.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
If the scrapper had fly and the blaster had super speed, who do you think would win?
[/ QUOTE ]
Point taken. I agree with the poster that said the blaster has the advantage here. I don't want to get to deep into speculating about PvP, however, since we have no details about the system will work. My point was however that PvP will have an impact on how travel powers are balanced. I would rather wait and see how the travel powers play out in PvP before a major balance is done, rather than balancing now, tweaking for a while, then having to return to the drawing board in 2-3 months anyway. There is precedent for this. Statesman has posted that electrical blasters aren't being balanced vs. other blaster primary power sets because of the potential power of the endurance drain in PvP. Statesman also recently posted that he'd prefer powers to work identically in PvE and PvP where possible, so it seems that two separate balances for the travel powers is undesirable (in the Devs' opinion, at least).
I'd suggest taking a wait and see attitude before a major balance is done. I know this isn't much consolation to those frustrated with fly right now, since issue 4 is months away. I would say try to live with it for now. Fly is arguably a weaker travel power, but not game-breakingly so. A character with fly is not so "gimped" that one can't play such a toon and enjoy the game. Perhaps it needs to be balanced, perhaps not. Let's wait and see all the cards before making a play.
[ QUOTE ]
Nathan, I understand what you're saying... however...
This is not just one thread. This subject comes up almost every day. I don't recall seeing many threads about superspeed being underpowered, or superjump being a gimp power next to flight. (Although I do see a few threads about teleport here, granted)
But flight speed comes up all the damn time. There are a LOT of people that agree that flight is too slow, and/or that the accuracy debuff should be taken out. It IS a concern for a lot of people. And seeing as how I often choose flight for my characters, I'd like to see some love payed to it.
(Now you may ask, why do you choose flight for so many characters?... My answer is simply for style. I make a lot of flight-inspired characters. If it wasn't for that, I would choose either SS or Superjump for every last one of them.)
[/ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with what you say in this post. You say that a lot of people frequently post about fly's weaknesses, but don't generalize about the player base. I'm probably coming off as nit-picking here, but I really hate to see exaggeration and generalization weaken an otherwise very solid argument. State and emphasize the facts that support your case, but don't exaggerate them. Doing so just gives people that disagree with you a flaw to exploit when they attack your argument.
Personally, I love flying and am happy with my choice of travel powers. The only reason I'd want to see it improved is so that maybe some of those SS crybabies will take it and I won't have to wait 20 minutes for them to get to the TV trial and then proceed to lecture me on how my travel power is useless.
[ QUOTE ]
You are just too slow keeping up with the party unless you take Swift (and let's face it, everyone takes Fitness).
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the same fallacy as "everyone takes Hasten." NOT everyone takes Stamina. NOT everyone takes Hasten. Get that into your cranium. Just because YOU get a power for everyone one of your heroes does NOT mean that EVERYone does. I have yet to get Stamina for any of my heroes. Altho, one, out of the 20+ I have, will be getting it...eventually.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, let me ask again. What's your point? I'll agree, we're not random. So..........er..... what's your point, other than to nitpick the word random? Does this have any impact on what I said that the board posters are a good sampling of the player base?
[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to point out that, in my opinion (this is not a fact), most MIN/MAXing Powergamers are the ones using Hasten and Stamina. Also another opinion, mostly, the people that are posting on the boards complaining about a power's (in)effectiveness are the same MIN/MAXing powergamers. NOTE: I said mostly, this does not mean all posters. There are some Balance players out there. I'm all for balance. I agree that flight could use a slight boost to speed, but I'm not concerned with getting from here to there in the blink of an eye. If I were, I'd use TP more often. However, since I build for concept mst of the time, I don't have many TP heroes, only 2 Superspeed heroes, and a few slated for Super Jump. The majority of my Heroes will have Fly. Skyway City is a tad more of a pain for a Speedster than for a flier. Not much, but just a tad. My main, an Illision Controller, doesn't worry about stealth effects, since he has Group Invis. Fly works just fine for him.
As for the arguments that people with Superspeed don't agro villains as they speed past, I hate to tell you, I've been speeding down the street with my Speedster, lept(with hurdle) over a group of +3 Trolls with bosses, and was sent to the hospital 5 blocks later as the rocks they threw finally registered as hitting me. So, even with the stealth on Superspeed, you can agro villains and get taken down with 1 group shot. In addition, I don't care for having to get another pool power to augment my travel power, just so I can get to places easier. That is why I like Fly more than Superspeed.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
[ QUOTE ]
I know I'm being cynical here because my Invul just went through quite a change in the name of "balancing" but the Invul set was 'brought in line' with others. I'm worried other travel powers are going to be 'brought in line' with flight if this conversation continues.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do not worry about it. This topic pops up on a weekly basis and always gets a lot of replies. For every person stating flight is fine, there is always at least one stating it is horrible. This is not the first time the topic has come up and will not be the last.
If the devs ever had any attention of changing it because so many people complain, they would have done it a long time ago. To be honest, the devs have their opinion that the power is perfect so nothing is going to be changed with Flight or any of the others because they fear flight could be inferior.
Besides, how many people complained that group flight sucked because of multiple reasons. First, people could out travel the others under the effect and cause them tumbling to the ground and sometimes to their deaths. They also yelled that the endurance cost was way too high. They yelled that since we did not get it till level 20 when everyone else has a travel power, it is pretty much useless unless you have pets. They yelled because there is almost always someone with recall friend on the team and that first tier power is far better, far cheaper, far faster and far safer to use then group fly if it comes to moving someone around. The also yelled that if fly was not slow enough to begin with, group fly is even slower. Finally, they yelled again about another power from the set with a huge acc penalty attached. All the devs did to rebalance the power even knowing all these things people hated about it was to change the initial cost of end used to be lowered but have each additional person bring the cost up. This pretty much meant no difference in bigger teams. Also meant no one who did not already have the power would take it because the power still would suck as much as it did before. If this was their idea about rebalancing group fly, there is no way they will ever do anything cool with flight to improve it or hurt another power because of the set.
[ QUOTE ]
*looks for the word "speed" in Fly*
*doesn't see it*
*looks for the word "speed" in Superspeed*
Aha!
[/ QUOTE ]
Your comment made me smile and was cute, but not really very accurate when adding the other travel powers into the mix. Super Jump and Teleport do not list anything about speed either and both far outpace flight. Swift states it is swift, but does not come close to SJ, teleport or higher level flyer speeds.
[ QUOTE ]
It's not Speed Fly, it's Fly. What we really need is a better 4th Flight power that rockets you around at SS speeds, but limits maneuverability (like Cannonball). Who uses Group Fly, anyway?
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that this would be an awesome idea, but also not one that will happen. The devs do not seem to see anything wrong with flight or group flight so they are unlikely to ever do anything with either of them.
[ QUOTE ]
Ask your friend to race you across Faultine, Eden, or Boomtown. Or to the back of the cemetery in Dark Astoria. See who wins.
[/ QUOTE ]
I will gladly take that challenge with super jump or teleport and beat you by miles each time. One of the people I play with will also probably beat you with his ss in all the areas besides maybe Eden. Never been to Eden so I am not sure what it is actually like. A ss learns tricks to get up around most places fast and learns the territory of the areas they travel a lot just as a Super Jumper does. Just yesterday, my friend showed someone how to superjump to the top at the Atlas Globe even though him along with most people do not seem to know that is even possible. This was without hurdle or any jump enhancements in sj at all.
[ QUOTE ]
I can tell you right now the results. Super speed everywhere, teleport no where, flight rarely there, super jump there.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that flight seems to be very rare once you get to Talos. It is almost like a huge group of people must rush out and respec it immediately or they all quit playing those characters. Granted, I see more people with flight since issue three but that is only because the khelds.
I do not think teleport is as rare as you try to make it sound though. I see people using it all the time in liberty. I think it is because just as hasten tends to be an automatic pick for many people, recall friend seems to be very desirous for a lot of others.
CURIOUS QUESTION
First, I want to state that this is not meant to start a huge fight and create nerf Kheld thread.
I am curious if anyone knows how the kheds flight stacks up to normal flight. I saw a level 2 take off once from Mrs. Liberty and I know it was definitely much faster then low level fly and think it might have been faster than even what my flight was like at level 30 before I finally respeced it. Later in Boom, I saw three khelds fighting and hitting everytime with their flight so I am guessing they do not get any negative acc or big endurance drain. Am I right about these observations?
As I said though, this is not mean to be a nerf Kheld question because it is an epic AT so I guess it is fair if it does turn out to be vastly superior to normal flight. I will admit, I was extremely happy for the second time that I respeced flight when I saw how much better Khelds flight appeared to be even at level 2. It would just be somewhat embarrassing to have a 2nd level character out fly me if I was around level 30.
Just replying to everyone.
I have a character who uses Fly as his sole travel power (6-slotted Hover is used for combat). With just 2 additional slots into it, and SO's, he reaches 50mph. You can get fly SO's at lvl 22 just for completing a story arc at the contact of your origin. The Fly-only method isn't a bad way to go at all. You might arrive a little slower than the super jumper, but you both will be behind the teleporter. The person with just Superspeed might even be behind you if he's taken no other power like Hurdle, Combat Jump or Superjump.
All I am saying is that for an investment of 2 slots you have a great travel power, and you need no other power to make it better. You can suppliment Fly to make travelling better with it, just as you can with Superspeed. But Fly on it's own, isn't that bad.
BTW if you have Stamina there's no reason to complain about the endurance usage of Fly. If you still have an endurance reduction in Fly if you have Stamina, that's a waste of a slot in my mind. 
[ QUOTE ]
Do not worry about it. This topic pops up on a weekly basis and always gets a lot of replies. For every person stating flight is fine, there is always at least one stating it is horrible. This is not the first time the topic has come up and will not be the last.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, I did not make this post anything to do with super speed. I was just pointing out that someone without a travel power runs faster than I fly with 6 flight speed enhancements.
[ QUOTE ]
BTW if you have Stamina there's no reason to complain about the endurance usage of Fly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yeah. But my empath has no room in her build for stamina.
If I were to fly her across the length of IP I'd either have to toggle between fly and hover (to recoup some end), or cast recovery aura on myself first. And RA would wear off before I got to the other end.
I think if I had flight on a more soloable build I probably could live with it. But having it on a support AT that people wait for before starting a mission (the empath) makes the slowness more painful.
[ QUOTE ]
Hehe, as opposed to City of Superspeeders? Look around you next time you're in game... It's already here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the only power I don't see a lot of is Teleportation. Not sure where your looking but I'm basing this on my observations standing at random trains and random groups I've been a part of. Super speeders are definitely the most noticable (animation and sound makes sure of that).