Flight.. The 5th slowest travel power..
By
AngryMonkey,
Posted on: 2005-01-11 23:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Anyways, Fly is by far the crappiest travel power in the game and one of the game's biggest disappointments.
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I could not more strongly disagree. I think that the travel powers in general are one of the aspects of CoH that most set it apart from other MMOs, that flying is the most fun of all the travel powers, and that flight is one of the game's greatest accomplishments. I'm afraid fun doesn't lend itself terribly well to metrics, but to my mind it is the most important consideration.
I got so annoyed that at level 32 I was still being recalled to every mission site because I was too slow that I respeced out for Super Jump. Sure I get hit once or twice when I jump into a blind area, but it is fast enough I always escape before the second round starts. Needless to say, I have been killed trying to fly away from enemies in ff, but never killed anywhere with SJ. And as for my class since I survive these hits, I play an empathy defender, so low hps and absolutely no personal defense.
Tried SS on test before deciding which to take and I can honestly state that ss is even better with defense. I can run up to +1 enemies and stand there for a few seconds before they even notice me. Trust me when I say, fly is far inferior in regards to providing safety over ss, all it offers is vertical movement. So what if you have to run through enemies, it is unlikely they will see you with ss and even if they do, you are gone before they ever get the first shot off.
Face facts, most people do not take fly for any other reason then it is cool to have. I got over the novelty and respeced because when the cool factor is gone, there really is no other reason to keep it compared to the other 3.
If they did something special with it like only allow people with fly to get wings, then there would be a genuine benefit to it beyond it is far safer in one whole zone out of how many. But, to be serious too many people would complain about this. They do not want fly cause it sucks, so instead they want wings with their much faster tp and sj and much safer and faster ss. This way they can have their wings that do not function, but look pretty.
I would have even been happy if at least Air Superiority had been a ranged attack because at least the attack would have fit the flavor of the set. Fly and hover is all about staying away from the enemy, yet out attack requires going toe-to-toe to use.
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Sounds like this player has invested in 4 powers - 3 of which he choose, and most of which he has probably slotted more than 6, and he still cannot fly. How much more of an investment did he make compared to your 1 power? How much did he have to give up compared to you and he still cannot go vertical.
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Geko,
If it is a matter of simply investing powers, there are two great options you can easily take.
1. Allow ss and fly to stack only as far as letting fly go to the ss level and no faster. This means a four slotted fly will only ever go as fast as a four slotted ss. This means taking two powers to get the same speed and it is not like it is cheating anyone, after all anyone can take the two sets. Most take the speed pool for hasten anyway and will continue to do it even if you made fly 10 times faster then ss.
2. Ditch group flight which only people with pets ever take or people who have absolutely nothing else left they need or want. Exchange it with a slight flight boost. If you want make it another acc that stacks and end draining meaning it will need end redux slots to even use. This means it will still not be usable in combat situations, but at least mean that at level 20, we no longer feel like snails. Finally since controllers are being looked at, fix the pets so they can more easily keep up with them without having to take a power pool power to do it. Either have them get automatically summoned to the controller whenever they get too far out of range a la Diablo style (ground beneath them if they can not fly) or let the pets use what ever travel power they are also using at the time without the positives. They can still keep the negative to acc with flight so it is not exploited, but they would not gain the major plus to stealth ss gets.
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4 is the cap.
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Actually 4 is *almost* the cap for fly. I was 'in convoy' with another 4-slotted Fly teammate a while back, and activating Power Boost (which boosts fly speed amongst other things) enabled me to 'reel him in', albeit *very very* slowly. (about 1 yard every 3-4 seconds)
If I had to estimate, I'd say that 4 slots is about 98% of cap (and so for all intents and purposes is maxed - only the *really* commited would want to put in another SO for that extra 1 or 2mph) 
Yii...
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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Because you can go that fast with Superspeed without using six incredibly valuable Enhancement slots.
Plus Superspeed's inherent Stealth allows you to sneak through non-kill-all missions to get to the goods as well as maneuver into a good attacking position for when you will be fighting. Fly lets you... fly over them and they still shoot you.
Superspeed can also be kept on in combat for incredibly quick movement with no accuracy penalty which is a huge boost for melee characters.
And finally let's face it: everyone is taking Hasten. And once you've got that it's only one power to get Superspeed with the above advantages as opposed to two powers and a second of only four power pools!
I'm firmly in the "Fly's speed cap should be increased" camp. Putting Enhancement slots into travel powers rather than attacks or defense is a difficult choice and should be rewarded. Very few people will think "I won't take Superspeed because with six slots I can fly just as fast" because those slots are almost always needed more elsewhere.
Also, while I'm here talking about travel powers, Teleport should *never* have a "you can't TP there" and should instead put the player a foot away from the click-location (towards the character). Using TP in some places is *incredibly* frustrating because the game thinks you're trying to teleport "too far" when a "step back from where you clicked" would be just fine.
Having just read the whole thread including Geko's reply, I wonder why I didn't see one important datum.
Fly _was_ balanced vs the other travel powers.
But those other powers have changed, while flight remains the same.
SS used to just be fast and used to have an accuracy debuff, but now gives stealth and no debuff, in addition to almost no end cost.
SJ used to be far less controlable for where you would land, but now is completely steerable in direct opposition to actual physics. You can jump and then turn to land behind where you jumped from, something that you couldn't do in reality.
Fly on the other hand still has a HUGE accuracy debuff and costs vastly more endurance than either SS or SJ, and is imprecise since you have momentum that makes you slide instead of just stopping.
So why is it that Fly, balanced with the other powers at release, hasn't changed when the powers it's being compared to have changed drastically?
Why isn't Fly balanced with the current iterations of those powers?
The "but fly is safer" argument doesn't work, since you are visible and get shot by anyone you fly in sight of - while SS just zips by unaggroed.
I stood within 15 feet of +15 DE in steel canyon with just SS and got ignored. I get shot by things 100 feet away flying by.
The "you have vertical movement" argument doesn't work either, since most people are going to have hurdle and/or combat jumping to give some vertical movement, and even if they don't, the zones people actually USE, don't really require much vertical movement.
Yeah, fly rules in faultline, but noone ever fights there anyway since it's a horribly designed zone, filled with annoying enemy types in large groups.
Fly is handy in boomtown, but the superspeeder can get around easily enough - i've done it.
Superspeed _starting_ with a high base speed is fine, but flight should be able to achieve similar high speed with slotting, since it already has a lot more penalties than superspeed does to "balance" it.
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If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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Because Superspeed is in the Speed power pool, a pool that 98% of all the heroes in the game are going to take anyway. Furthermore, it is the only pool skill available that grants us a level of stealth without reducing our speed or making us unable to attack. I take Superspeed on every hero I make at some point, even if I've already chosen another travel power at level 14. The stealth bonus and maneuverability in combat, combined with the fact that I'm already invested in the Speed pool on every hero makes SS a no-brainer, actual movement speed notwithstanding.
Most of my characters have flight (those that are below 14 are likely to take it).
2 reasons, it is fun to fly, and is alos sociable. We take the few mims when flying to chat with SG/Team mates. Catch up plan and those types of things.
Used to have races with a TP guy (not maxed out by any means). usualy by the time we got there his end would still be recharging. He used his respec to get into flight.
I'll take a few hits in my XP/min rate- which certainly isn't maxed out anyway.
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If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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Because SS doesn't effectively have a pre-req, as everyone needs hasten anyway.
Personally I think flight could use a small speed boost, but I do take the point geko makes.
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If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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Because everyone takes Hasten.
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Everytime flight speed comes up, people point out 10 good reasons flight is bad, and one third that many people come in and say, "but its the safest" despite it having been said in almost EVERY post regarding upping the flight speed cap or flight speed in general, like in this case, that SS is just as safe, if not SAFER than flight, unless you start every trip going as high as you can go, and hitting autopilot, which makes it take even longer. With SS you are barely there long enough to catch aggro, not to mention the nice stealth bump you get, and if you get aggro, your gone before you feel the first hit, which also happens to be the last. And lets not forget indoor missions. My bit to add is this: try using hover/fly in a low cieling room/hallway and tell me its safer than SS, granted not travel, but where other powers give you some help(yeah, TP too, since you can port anywhere you can see regardless of obstacles), flight is a hinderance.
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To be fair, there is one situation where Fly is "safer" than SS - ambushes. When you fly from contact to mission, you often don't even notice that you have spawned an ambush...
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SJ used to be far less controlable for where you would land, but now is completely steerable in direct opposition to actual physics.
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nu uh. even in very early beta SJ was very controllable. SJs downside used to be that it was split into 2 travel powers, 1 was long jump (normal jump height, but you could jump 100 yards at a time base), and the other was high jump (normal jump distance but you could jump something like 100 feet straight up.
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Fly is a nice safe cuddly travel power, but it's also dull. I respec'd mine out and changed to teleport. Now that can be a nightmare to use, but boy, it's fun. It makes travelling to places a thrill as it gives you something to do whilst travelling.
With fly I just went up high and hit auto run. Safe. Easy. Dull
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Actually I did the opposite with my D3. TP was more of a pain in the long run, and unless you take Hover, the laggy moments (or moment of indecision) can send you crashing to earth inbetween TP activations. While TP fit the concept better, it's actual use wasn't that great in the game.
Each travel power has it's own pluses and minuses with it. Sure SJ gives you verticle too, but unlike fly, you come back down. SS may have the stealth advantage, but is challenged for anything beyond horizontal travel. TP has the freedom of flight, but costs more END and unless you pick Hover, you're coming back to earth. I can't tell you how many times I had to hear how 'uber' SS was from an SG-mate of mine, but who was also asking for tp's to mission points.
All in all, it only matters what travel power you want/like. Each has it's own role. And just wait until the Shard to see how 'uber' SS is. 
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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My spines/regen is about 7 bubbles away from having both flight and superspeed - partly because I really like air superiority, so the requirement for flight is about as harsh as it is for superspeed (hasten) and I'd really like to have verticle movement. I'm keeping superspeed because I like the stealth effect, it is pretty fast and perfectly viable for most situations, and after spending 14-28 melee kiting anything within 2-3 levels of me with no other real defenses, it has sentimental value.
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quote from Geko:
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If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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Hasten.
What does any other power in the fly pool do? Everyone I've teamed up with that has team fly never leaves it on because someone never likes it (does well in Hami fights though). The def bonus from hoover and hasten are compareable so you don't really get a benefit from hover. And air superiority is basically just another melee attack. Which squishy wants a melee attack? And what non-squishy wants another melee attack?
I had hover and dropped it as soon as I figured out to make my toon a lot better (hasten+superspeed+superjump) .
Flight does suck. I mean, really, everyone knows it. If so many people are dissatisfied with it, it's probably unbalanced. I have flight on a couple of my guys, totally for character concept. And I often am embarrassed on teams when I can't keep up with my teammates. I feell like "The Gimp" on a regular basis. It IS too slow.
But that's not my main concern, actually. My main concern is the accuracy penalty. I see no reason why fly should have this. I mean, Air Superiority is a flight pool power. It even has a special flying animation (which looks quite cool). But I can't hit jack with it if I'm flying? Come on! The -ACC is unneeded, it pushes Fly over the edge of crappiness, and it also eliminates Fly from combat use, which is just a shame. Flying attacks are way too cool to leave out of this game.
Let me just make some things clear:
I would like the ACC penalty removed from Fly.
I would like to go faster with it, but the base speed is fine.
But yes Fly is the safest travel power.
I don't want to be categorized by ignorant people who disagree with one thing I believe in, the amazing safety of flight, with a defense of the status quo. But I have no issue with agreeing with Statesman's comment about the relative safety of flight.
One more thing, don't underestimate the usefulness of 6-slotted Hover. My mind controller hovers 100% of the time regardless of indoor mission and it's faster than Sprinting around, for the same endurance cost. Plus it looks really cool and gets you over things like caltrops, and really annoying mobs like Freakshow that hit hard but mostly rely on melee damage.
4-slotted Fly maxes out the speed. I have noticed speed boost from kinetic heroes allows me to briefly go a tiny bit faster than the speed cap. If you 6-slot fly I bet speed boost gives you a tiny increase in speed.
Fly at 52mph is noticably slower than the other travel powers but not unbearable. Fly around on ground level and you'll see what I mean.
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Sounds like this player has invested in 4 powers - 3 of which he choose, and most of which he has probably slotted more than 6, and he still cannot fly. How much more of an investment did he make compared to your 1 power? How much did he have to give up compared to you and he still cannot go vertical.
No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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/agreed
Fly is the best travel power in my opinion. It may not be the fastest, but speed is not always the best reason for moving around. Currently, I only have 2 SO speed in fly, and it's quick. Also, it's very maneuverable. I can get in and out of situations quickly. Saved my rear several times.
Fly is the most versatile (speed, maneuverability in all directions). That's why I love it. Being stuck on the ground is frustrating.
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Because Superspeed is in the Speed power pool, a pool that 98% of all the heroes in the game are going to take anyway.
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Let's see, I have over 20 heroes. Out of all of those heroes, only 3 have Hasten. and one of those, I'll be respecing Hasten out, so that would leave 2. Hmm...2 out of 20+ doesn't seem to be 98% to me. But then, I don't have even 1% of the total number of Heroes in the game. I'd just like to point out, tho, that making a statement like that with out factual evidence to back it up is rather...silly. You could say many, but I would steer clear of most and definately stay away from 98%.
It has been my experience, that most of the heros I make do not need Hasten. I may so some min/maxing, but I don't concern myself with DPS. So that makes Hasten a power that I do not need. And since Hasten isn't that "got to have" power for me, then why would I want Super Speed? Super Speed is fast and its nice to have, I'll grant you that. I only have 2 Heroes with it. The other hero that has Hasten uses Fly to get around. He also has Recall Friend, so that's 3 travel pools used. So what? I also have one with Super Jump and another with TP. I'm familiar with all the travel powers, except the /SR non-Pool power travel power(s).
But, to say that everyone needs/gets Hasten is really a lie at worst, or a mistaken perception at best. In fact, of all the people I know who play CoH, only 1 has Hasten on any of his Heroes. In addition, I see alot of people fly/Run/Jump/TP around and in the fights I see them in, I don't see Hasten running. Its kinda hard to miss the glowing hands, ya know.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
No, not a serious issue, but I'd prefer to see a few more flier around instead of everyone super speeding around like I do now. I'd be very curious as to the actual numbers, current numbers, of how many take super speed and how many take flight.
In my personal observations in the beginning almost everyone took flight. Once super speed got stealth and everyone realized how uber hasten way anyway, super speed has become the travel power of choice.
I can complete missions with super speed on without having to engage any enemies at all because of its stealth and speed. Try that with fly.
You get in trouble and have super speed you turn it on and you are gone from combat with at most one parting hit. Try that with fly and you'll get hit 2 or 3 more times trying to get away.
So how is fly the "safest" again?
Vertical movement??!?... For what? There is nothing there to do.
If you want a good datamining experiment go to the shard and you will see why there is so few ppl there... Ppl DO NOT WASTE A TRAVEL SLOT on fly (the best SM mode to travel through the shard). And you aggravate the issue more with the Ancillary Power pools... More powers and same picks = Less room for RPG decissions.
Devs even unvoluntary recognize this... Any1 with a kheldian in Nova form knows this... Fly without acc penalty is not that unbalanced and really rocks.
Geko... pls understand that travel powers are not balanced at all because simply the BEST combination is the following (speaking entirely on power pools only to avoid interactions with specific ATs, and slots specified when they affect travel speed. Also SOs are assumed):
Hasten
Superspeed (2 slots)
Hurdle (1 slot) Increases your jump height enough to reach 1 standard floor (which avoids most of the hard obstacles)
The above setup yields good speed INSIDE or OUTSIDE missions... Plus with a few extra picks yields the following:
- END balance (with stamina and another power of the fitness pool)
- Full invisibility (with ANY other stealth power...)
So let me recapitulate... With this 6 power "package" the character obtains:
- Very good END balance
- Very good overland speed (with hurdle you can access shortcut paths in most of the complicated environments with the exception of the Shard)
- TOTAL travel security (with the exception of invisibility piercing mobs)
- Perma Hasten effect
- COMBAT tactics that ONLY SS user can use (i.e. kitting, etc.)
The problem is that sometimes you don't realize the interrelated effect of power picks... Now try to achive this level of functionality substituting Speed with ANY of the other pools related to supermovement.
And you keep insisting in "vertical" component?. Well I have kept fly in my main because... I like to fly, period. it's relaxing. But there is another strong reason... I hope that when PvP will be implemented then there will be an advantage to "go vertical". But reading on the plans... I'm starting to think that, as the mayority of players DO NOT FLY, PvP engagements will be restricted to Warehouse-like sets (HQ Bases sound like them) so I'm starting to see just suttborness in keeping flight as a degraded power pool instead of "misterious Dev balance reasons".
Sorry for the harsh tone... But this unbalance is SO OBVIOUS and been overlooked for that long time that seeing you using the same reasonings again makes my blood boil.
NOTE 1: I hate following power recipes... Most of the appeal of this game is based on power picks so if you blindly follow others advices you are depriving yourself of a big chunk of fun. Instead ask the Devs to balance this blatantly superior combinations by boosting alternatives.
NOTE 2: If you make characters based on RPG concepts rather than taking game efficiency into account then you will have a nicer experience. But usually, RPG concepts have "Actions my character should do" built in and that's when game mechanics enter so don't be surprised if the above "power pack" allows a character to perform those actions better than yours. So if you are a Concept-oriented player do not overlook this kind of problems, they will affect you anyway.
Superspeed does have one great disadvantage for me: It's the only movement power that induces motion sickness - especially when you are rubberbanding due to lag.... 
You would think that superjump would do it, but so far I've only felt it on SS characters... My elude character flies (or tries to), so I haven't tried "elude speed" enough to see if that also has the same effect.
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Fly _was_ balanced vs the other travel powers.
But those other powers have changed, while flight remains the same.
SS used to just be fast and used to have an accuracy debuff, but now gives stealth and no debuff, in addition to almost no end cost.
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Fly was never balanced vs. the old version of Super Speed...why? Because you left out one important feature of the old super speed...the insanely high +def from it. That's the main reason it was changed. They removed the +def and -acc from it, then when they realized that traveling at super speed without the +def left a lot of dead players from a mess-load of aggro, so they added the stealth.
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If so many people are dissatisfied with it, it's probably unbalanced.
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That would be true...if so many people were dissatisfied with it. All because a majority on the boards want a boost with it, doesn't mean that the majority of the actual playerbase wants it boost. Fly is the most popular travel power in the game, and most people who have it are going to say they're happy with it as it is (but doesn't mean that they wouldn't mind a boost to it).
I used SS on my main for 36 levels, loved it. Problem is I am not as coordinated as some and had many problems getting up in TV, Fauntline (in early levels) and it was aggrivating and embarrassing for me to be the slowest with SS! (LOL go ahead and laugh at me I am laughing) I actually changed to SJ, I do miss the benefits Hasten and SS gave but I like being able to get up in vertical places and such
Believe me I tried but I do have a muscle condition and with that it just seemed harder to get coordinated for jumping and finding good inclines to get up with, with SS. On my bad days I was frustrated as hell on my good days I could find a way up no problem, but SJ just made it a lot easier.
I have Fly on an Alt of mine, I do like it but miss the bonus and speed I don't want to slot fly yet *shrug* hehe
MM
Take the three months to code up the ability for Superspeeders to run up walls. Boost Fly by 20%. Everyone's happy.
I agree, and also allow speedsters to run on water not just swim at superspeed.