Flight.. The 5th slowest travel power..
By
AngryMonkey,
Posted on: 2005-01-11 23:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I think if a majority of the boards want it boosted, that's a pretty good indicator of the fan base...
And just look around in game. What do you see? A million light trails as people bound around the city with superjump and superspeed. Now look up higher, you'll see one, maybe two idiots like me puttering along with flight. It's actually kind of funny to see the comparison...
1 end redux. 4 flight speed
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Vertical movement??!?... For what? There is nothing there to do.
Now try to achive this level of functionality substituting Speed with ANY of the other pools related to supermovement.
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For what? Avoidance of mobs, for one. Yes, you can be stealthed with SS, but stealth doesn't always work, plus not everyone takes a concealment power to stack with it. Another reason for vertical movement is to tackle flying enemies, namely Juicers. Oh, and to traverse terrain. Have fun running through the Hollows with SS while I jump over all that mess.
Super Jump is very functional in its own right. A quick tap of the jump key while backpedaling allows you to kite just as well as a SSer (not as fast, but SS is tons faster than necessary anyway), even indoors. Outdoors, while you're veering around taller buildings, over fences, sidestepping through areas that aren't clear, etc, I'm jumping over it. In my experience, unless I'm in an open area (PI ferry to Portal Corps), I get to destinations faster than SSers.
How can you say that fly is popular?... Heh 
... it's popular because new low level players rush to get it... Just to drop it on L24 respec.
Just keep an eye on your team experiences... Count and note... you will see it... specially on post L24 game. Even more, note the ammount of players that have Fly as a secondary travel power because they like it but do not wisthand been always the last one to reach the next mission spot while on teams.
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1 end redux. 4 flight speed
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What he said insinuated that he was referring to all of his SOs being flight speed, since he never specified. That 5th slot is pointless as far as determining speed, so why add it to his post if he's not going to explain it?
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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"Ultimate safety" is great, but you know what? A lot of that "Ultimate Safety" is overkill. Other than TP (which is dangerous due to lag related issues), I've had exactly one death with a character related to travel, and that was when I superjumped into a Consigliere.
Adequate safety is available on SS and SJ, and the benefits of those powers more than make up for the difference between "adequate" and "ultimate" safety. Those powers are in extremely useful power pools, they're fast, and they are actually BOTH useful in combat. SJ lets you close the distance on an enemy quickly, or to jump, hit an attack in range, and actually land the attack well outside of the enemy's range. SS is a god send for melee characters, and the stealth bonus is great for anybody. Both powers are easily enhanceable by the fitness pool (Swift and Hurdle). Both powers are much quicker than flight on their own, and they smoke the hell out of flight when used together. SJ/SS work really well together; Fly doesn't combine well with other powers.
Fly, on the other hand, is next to worthless for a melee character. Hell, if I want to reliably use the melee attack IN the fly power pool while in the air, I have to get a THIRD power from the pool.
Fly is slow.
Flow is draining.
Fly is worthless in combat thanks to the ACC penalty.
Fly DOES provide you with more vertical maneuverability, but most of the time it's in excess of what you really need. Other powers grant ample vertical mobility on their own. Many superspeeders pick up a second pool to add that mobility, so for them it isn't a choice BETWEEN SS and Fly.
Fly DOES provide you with more safety for traveling, but again... a lot of that safety is just excess and worthless. Fly makes you a larger target in combat than SS/SJ, since it's much slower to move, drains your endurance, and leaves you unable to defend yourself.
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1 end redux. 4 flight speed
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Actually, I made a mistake, I wouldn't add 6 slots, I'd add 5..and in your case add 4. Still not worth it in my book.
Someone bought my main run speed S/O and told me to ++ them. This is in one slot mind you. My God, I go so fast I ricochet off buildings and walls. I can't handle it, lol.
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If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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Hasten.
[/ QUOTE ]People keep saying this. I hope they realize they are more likely to get Hasten nerfed than Fly buffed.
Personally, I don't mind Hasten getting nerfed, but I know a lot of people who would be really upset about that.
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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Maybe they'd take superspeed because it FIT their character? Gee imagine that!
This argument about speed can be made for SS only, Geko. SJ can get you vertical and is fast. It's nearly as fast as SS, has absolutely no drawbacks, and only pulls aggro if you're not careful (I haven't accidentally drawn aggro with SJ in probably 20 levels, now that I know what I am doing). And even if it does pull aggro unless something mezzes you or one-shots you, you're out of its range almost instantly (fast enough it will not get off a 2nd shot). Most of my SG would agree with me that SJ is the most effective travel power in the game, combining very fast speed with no significant end drain (unlike flight and TP) and vertical movement that allows you to get anywhere (though for very high places you might have to do a bit of geometry till you put a jump SO on it). Yet even though most people on my SG would tell you SJ is the best travel power, almost NONE of them have it (most of them have flight). Why do you think that is? Because flight fits for their character.
It seems to me that the problem here is what you guys decided to make the 'drawback' of the SS power -- lack of vertical movement. So why not get rid of that? Let people with SS run up walls, and cut the end cost and bump the speed of flight. Let all movement powers be EQUAL (approximately) and then people will take (gasp) what they WANT instead of what's most efficient.
F
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Okay, so a friend of mine has no official travel power. He has Swift, Sprint, Quickness, and Elude (spelling). I have no idea how he has them slotted but he is faster than my 42 flyer and I have 6 slots full of max SO speeds (yes i know it caps out at 4. consider the other 2 saftey systems incase one fails...)
now i've always been content with flights speed. sure i would like it to be faster, but i didn't have anything against it.
but this just makes it so worthless now. someone without a travel power can move faster than me and i am as fast as i can go.. i'm not demanding something be done, i just want to bring it up. i want to make sure the devs know that we can be slower than someone without a travel power..
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He may move faster on foot, but you can fly. Also, it took how many powers for him to be able to travel that fast?
The advantage of flight (one that I truly appreciate, no joke):
You can chat while you move without worry.
Fly is the most social of the movement powers. You won't run through a mob straight into a wall while typing where the team should go next or calling out "AMBUSH!" or go careening off a cliff in Fault Line while typing something. You don't have to stop jumping to make a comment, thus slowing down your movement. And don't even get me started on the end draining nightmare of teleport, not to mention it's totaly lack of social activity ("Everyone go to...oh nuts I just fell into a mob of Rikti").
No other power in the game offers the versatiliy of flight. You can scout better than any other movement power outdoors. You can get out of any sticky situation like falling into dangerous areas or being on the other side of a wall from something. You have the safest and quickest escape from deadly situations outdoors. Some other movements might offer one or two of these things, but not all.
Plus, I NEVER want to slot my movement powers (though I can see slotting one extra in SS so you can have both defense and end red). It's a waste of slots that could better be used in my defense powers or my attacks. Believe me, there aren't enough slots in the game as it is, why waste them on movement powers?
I never turn of jump or SS on my characters that have it. These two are the best movements to have indoors. But I do really appreciate being able to fly over a city and gab with my friends and Hover is a pretty decent defense power indoors. All you gotta do is get out of melee range and almost every door offers this somewhere (with the exception of the caves).
Granted, I don't seem to be the typical ritalin-deprived, impatient poster so obviously my opinion is useless.
I use 6 slot hover and have SS I mix and use both sometimes
I love fly.. fly is great.. I think the -acc to fly should be remove.
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Sounds like this player has invested in 4 powers - 3 of which he choose, and most of which he has probably slotted more than 6, and he still cannot fly. How much more of an investment did he make compared to your 1 power? How much did he have to give up compared to you and he still cannot go vertical.
No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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I have a speedster friend who likes to make fun of my flight speed. I just say, "Okay...race you to the top of that skyscraper."
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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Maybe they'd take superspeed because it FIT their character? Gee imagine that!
This argument about speed can be made for SS only, Geko. SJ can get you vertical and is fast. It's nearly as fast as SS, has absolutely no drawbacks, and only pulls aggro if you're not careful (I haven't accidentally drawn aggro with SJ in probably 20 levels, now that I know what I am doing). And even if it does pull aggro unless something mezzes you or one-shots you, you're out of its range almost instantly (fast enough it will not get off a 2nd shot). Most of my SG would agree with me that SJ is the most effective travel power in the game, combining very fast speed with no significant end drain (unlike flight and TP) and vertical movement that allows you to get anywhere (though for very high places you might have to do a bit of geometry till you put a jump SO on it). Yet even though most people on my SG would tell you SJ is the best travel power, almost NONE of them have it (most of them have flight). Why do you think that is? Because flight fits for their character.
It seems to me that the problem here is what you guys decided to make the 'drawback' of the SS power -- lack of vertical movement. So why not get rid of that? Let people with SS run up walls, and cut the end cost and bump the speed of flight. Let all movement powers be EQUAL (approximately) and then people will take (gasp) what they WANT instead of what's most efficient.
F
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Quite a profound statement. I agree.
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2 reasons, it is fun to fly, and is alos sociable. We take the few mims when flying to chat with SG/Team mates. Catch up plan and those types of things.
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With the right key binds Super Jump can be social too. Steering sometimes must be considered occasionally but I can chat as much as everyone else, and sometimes I will take a bathroom break while jumping... its the ++up command that I can't keep memorized for some reason. I bind it to "u" and then hit "r" to run and I'm mostly hands free to chat.
Fly is fun to experience for a short time but becomes a chore when doing story arcs or TFs when running from mission to mission with a pick up group is mandatory. I do think the speed to should ramp up as levels progress like Super Jump improves as you go up in levels.
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He may move faster on foot, but you can fly. Also, it took how many powers for him to be able to travel that fast?
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Let's look. It took that player:
Swift (One run enhancement)
Sprint (Default Power, one run enhancement)
Quickness (One run enhancement).
Elude (No run enhancments)
So that's 4 powers and 3 slots (zero extra slots) worth of run speed enhancers. One of those is a default power that everybody has. So he gets all the defensive benefits of Elude and the recharge speed boost of Quickness, as well as more than the speed of a fully slotted flight while he travels.
Compared to the flier:
Sprint (he has it too, with no choice. It's worthless to him though)
Hover or Air Superiority (either is pretty much worthless while he's flying)
Flight (6 enhancements - but he could probably only use four).
So for 3 powers and at least 6 slots (at least three of which are extra), he gets vertical movement, but he also gets a minus to accuracy.
That's balanced?
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I've never, ever been aggroed by mobs I didn't wish it with SS running.
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Don't go to Founder's Falls much, do you? As a SSer, I get nailed by snipers constantly (until I outleveled them). I still get picked off by snipers in Peregrine. All while Superspeeding.
My brother plays a flight character. He got hit by a sniper in FF and then just learned to fly higher.
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Let's look. It took that player:
Swift (One run enhancement)
Sprint (Default Power, one run enhancement)
Quickness (One run enhancement).
Elude (No run enhancments)
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This is a misrepresentation. Elude would take no run enhancements but to make it permanent (and thus usable for a viable travel power) it would require another power (Hasten) 5-slotted and Elude to be 4-slotted with recharge. It'd also require micro-management (since only one power can be made auto) of one of those 2 powers while you are running.
Elude lasts 100 seconds, folks, and it has a 5-minute downtime unenhanced. So unless you want to consign yourself to fast running only 100 out of every 600 seconds, and sprint-speed running the other 83% of the time, you're going to have to put a LOT of slots into Elude to use it as a travel power.
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So he gets all the defensive benefits of Elude and the recharge speed boost of Quickness, as well as more than the speed of a fully slotted flight while he travels.
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Again he's only gonna get that with 11 more enhancements you have conveniently neglected to mention.
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Compared to the flier:
Sprint (he has it too, with no choice. It's worthless to him though)
Hover or Air Superiority (either is pretty much worthless while he's flying)
Flight (6 enhancements - but he could probably only use four).
So for 3 powers and at least 6 slots (at least three of which are extra), he gets vertical movement, but he also gets a minus to accuracy.
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How many of those slots have to go into making Flight "perma"?
Oh wait, it's permanent by default since it's a toggle.
Elude is not a toggle. It takes an extra power and 11 slots to turn it into what basically is one (a toggle). He also looses 100% of his endurance every 100 seconds or so as it wears off, which turns off any other toggle he might happen to have on at the moment. Does flight do that to you?
You're pretending here that Elude has no drawbacks and comes "out of the box" being a permanent travel power. That's completely false.
F
I concede your points but keep in mind the POWER OF THE SS PACK.
Even the best second travel pool (SJ) cannot compete fairly with the ammount of gameplay options that the SS pack offers.
Also this thread is about Fly... You don't even mention what happens when you chase a flying freak and he stuns you. Also, to benefit from "fly protection" you need to slow down to change heights (even more if you suspect sniper or flyier activity). I wonder what flyiers say about Strigga Isle flying patrols 
.
In the Hollows there are not invis piercing foes so a SSer has no problems traversing.
I think that the perceptions are heavily based on your level:
- at L14-19. Any SM power is fun and nice to have because anything is better than sprint.
- at L20-24. You start to feel the END bite and wished to have STAMINA so you are more END aware and start to realize what the real END sink holes are.
- at L25-30. You see what Superspeed pack users can do regularly and you feel the "Min/Max Dark Side" call so some users "claim" their respec to be able to do what SSers do.
- at L30+. You realize how important initiative is during missions or while in teams and thus you learn the value of FULL INVISIBILITY. Also at this levels you start to see the effects of perma-hasten... Specially if you are the user of multiple long recharge effects.
It's not a power vs power comparison... It's a blatant power pack advantage.
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Once super speed got stealth and everyone realized how uber hasten way anyway, super speed has become the travel power of choice.
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Superspeed alone sucks, lets face it. While it's still good in combat, as a means of travel it's sub par because of that lack of vertical travel. You need Hurdle to give it the ability to be useful on steep inclines, as well as to have a passable jump height. Add Combat Jump to be a lot more viable. Add Superjump and have an uber travel method.
Superspeed alone has a huge flaw as a travel power. If you want to talk about how other powers can help make it or Fly more useful for travelling - sure. But there is a difference between using a travel power for combat, and for travelling.
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I can complete missions with super speed on without having to engage any enemies at all because of its stealth and speed. Try that with fly. You get in trouble and have super speed you turn it on and you are gone from combat with at most one parting hit. Try that with fly and you'll get hit 2 or 3 more times trying to get away. So how is fly the "safest" again?
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Well to be fair, you're shifting context here. No doubt Superspeed is a better combat power. Fly is not designed to be an effective combat power. Hover is. But as a safer travel power Fly fits the bill.
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The advantage of flight (one that I truly appreciate, no joke):
You can chat while you move without worry.
Fly is the most social of the movement powers. You won't run through a mob straight into a wall while typing where the team should go next or calling out "AMBUSH!" or go careening off a cliff in Fault Line while typing something. You don't have to stop jumping to make a comment, thus slowing down your movement. And don't even get me started on the end draining nightmare of teleport, not to mention it's totaly lack of social activity ("Everyone go to...oh nuts I just fell into a mob of Rikti").
No other power in the game offers the versatiliy of flight. You can scout better than any other movement power outdoors. You can get out of any sticky situation like falling into dangerous areas or being on the other side of a wall from something. You have the safest and quickest escape from deadly situations outdoors. Some other movements might offer one or two of these things, but not all.
Plus, I NEVER want to slot my movement powers (though I can see slotting one extra in SS so you can have both defense and end red). It's a waste of slots that could better be used in my defense powers or my attacks. Believe me, there aren't enough slots in the game as it is, why waste them on movement powers?
I never turn of jump or SS on my characters that have it. These two are the best movements to have indoors. But I do really appreciate being able to fly over a city and gab with my friends and Hover is a pretty decent defense power indoors. All you gotta do is get out of melee range and almost every door offers this somewhere (with the exception of the caves).
Granted, I don't seem to be the typical ritalin-deprived, impatient poster so obviously my opinion is useless.
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Agree with most of what you say except about not slotting travel powers. I have my flight 3 slotted with SO's and sometimes it can be too fast. Also two words make flight my favorite travel power: SHADOW SHARD. I've tried all of the travel powers and I find flight to be the most useful to me.
'Lo, there do I see my father.
'Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers.
'Lo, there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning.
'Lo, they do call to me.
They bid me take my place among them.
In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.
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To be fair, there is one situation where Fly is "safer" than SS - ambushes. When you fly from contact to mission, you often don't even notice that you have spawned an ambush...
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So YOU'RE the one who keeps leaving ambushes everywhere to stomp on my lowbies!
j/k - I know I did this before I respecced out hover/flight for combat Jumping/SJ. I'd get to my contact who would say something about that "ambush" i just dealt with, and I'd think, "whoopsi daisy."
For Mellee'rs, combat jumpng is so useful that I can't imagine not going ahead with Super Jump. I get to missions first all the time. Plus the whole fast v. vertical argument is moot, because SJ has both. (please don't nerf SJ now, dammit.)
For my dark/dark defender who has flight, I honestly don't know what to take when I respec. She certainly has no use for combat jumping or :shiver: jump kick, but I don't think I can go back to being stuck on the ground.
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I would have even been happy if at least Air Superiority had been a ranged attack because at least the attack would have fit the flavor of the set. Fly and hover is all about staying away from the enemy, yet out attack requires going toe-to-toe to use.
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funny, i chose flight on my scraps and tanks and ss and sj on my blasters. AS is one of my best powers for boss control and i have hover on with three flight speed enhancment all the time during a fight which makes it faster than sprint. IMHO the flight pool is one of the best melee pools, and AS fits right into it.
personally after some test.. I love 6 sloted hover... sure it sucks to "waste" 5 slots... but only certain build have this.. I can fly pretty decent speed and have defense with no -acc penalty yay...
also remember.. fly speed increase as you level (but still a cap) so flight (1 slot) at level 14 vs fly at 50 (still 1 slot) speed differs.
actually three areas come to mind where fly is good (teleport too)
Shadow Shard
Faultline
Terra Volta - trying to get there via SS alone and not knowing where to go takes a long time... I with fly and TP friend is a godsend to some heroes
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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I don't agree with that. My blaster can run through groups of mobs on the street without getting attacked. As someone said before, you pass so fast you don't get aggro.
But if my flight defender flew through a group of any type mob that hangs out in the air, Sky Raiders for instance, she'd be dead in less than a minute.
I recently added SS to my main, who already has flight, because I'm also tired of being the last person to the mission. I've been thinking of dropping flight on my only other flying character because no matter how I slot it it's still going to be slow and an endurance hog. The shame is it totally fits her character concept.
I don't care about the -acc to flight, I wouldn't fight with it on, it uses way too much endurance. And I'm not wasting 6 slots on filght (4 fly speed, 2 end red) because it still won't be a fast travel power. Those slots are better used in other places.
I think a good question is why would anyone take flight, which requires slots to be a mediocre power, when they can take SS and not slot it at all, travel at awesome speed, plus it uses almost no endurance?