Flight.. The 5th slowest travel power..
By
AngryMonkey,
Posted on: 2005-01-11 23:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Flight + Superior Invis + Auto Run == the win
And by syaing "5th slowest power", you are in fact, saying it is the fastest power.
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You are just too slow keeping up with the party unless you take Swift (and let's face it, everyone takes Fitness).
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This is the same fallacy as "everyone takes Hasten." NOT everyone takes Stamina. NOT everyone takes Hasten. Get that into your cranium. Just because YOU get a power for everyone one of your heroes does NOT mean that EVERYone does. I have yet to get Stamina for any of my heroes. Altho, one, out of the 20+ I have, will be getting it...eventually.
[/ QUOTE ]Still, a majority of people you team with do have stamina. Judging by the people I team with, at least 50% of the player base gets stamina by the low 20s. In the high 20s when respec becomes available and there are a few more powers available, even more people have stamina.
Granted this is only a sampling of people I have teamed with, but I don't know why strict soloers wouldn't take the same power choices as the people I team with.
I just got done watching the introduction video for the second time since I've bought this game (When it was still in beta and I got my snazzy pre-order box) And statesman is flyin pretty darn fast and hitting things with never a miss.....I wonder how many accuracy slots he has in his attacks to negate the -20 ACC
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To be fair, I did not make this post anything to do with super speed. I was just pointing out that someone without a travel power runs faster than I fly with 6 flight speed enhancements.
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I never meant anything about any specific thread. It does not really matter what you make a post about, if it deals with flight, it almost always eventually turns to a flight verse the other power pools. Last time it was all about how it compared with SJ. I have yet to see it compared with tp throughout a whole thread, but have read teleport mentioned in many of the threads.
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I just got done watching the introduction video for the second time since I've bought this game (When it was still in beta and I got my snazzy pre-order box) And statesman is flyin pretty darn fast and hitting things with never a miss.....I wonder how many accuracy slots he has in his attacks to negate the -20 ACC
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Probably none, he was probably the first real Kheld and had their flight instead of ours. Since khelds were completely unknown about except in some very secretive circles, he hid his race so he would not have the government trying to do experiments to discover why he was the only person in Paragon that can both fly and attack with ease. Now that the truth that Khelds exists has came out, keep an eye out for the tabloids. I am sure some savy reporter is just biding his time to finally gain enough proof to break this huge story. Statesman is not of this world! 
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Still, a majority of people you team with do have stamina.
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No, the majority of people you team with may use it, not the majority I team with. You do not know who I team with. So, you do not know what powers they have. Just this morning I teamed with 5 other people. did the majority of the team have Stamina? Nope. Being a bubble Controller, I need to keep an eye on bubble status of the team, so I notice little things like Stamina, Health, Fast Healing, Quick Recovery, etc. Judging from the people that I've teamed with (different people than those you team with) the majority of people do not use Stamina, Health or Hasten. Now that we have two conflicting views, I guess we can't say that everyone uses Hasten and Stamina. Nor can we say that no one uses Hasten and Stamina. I just dislike people tossing out sweeping statements like those I've seen here about those two powers. For your information, Hasten and Stamina are not the "must have" powers for the casual gamer that you seem to think they are. they're not as needed for Power gamers either. They are handy to have, I'll grant you. But, you don't have to have them to have a viable solo or team build.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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So because you wouldn't, you think nobody else would. I love the illogical short circuit breakdowns you people have.
Fifth set.
Still deuce.
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If I were to fly her across the length of IP I'd either have to toggle between fly and hover (to recoup some end), or cast recovery aura on myself first.
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That's why you'd put an endurance recovery in it. Just one will allow you to fly indefinitely. And you already get 1 slot for free by picking that power. 
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This is Rumor Control - Accuracy has not been nerfed!
It is still 75% to hit target unless the power says otherwise, there are buff/debuffs used, or the target is not your level.
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Well I'm sure missing a lot more than I did before. You guys may want to check for bugs or accidental fixes.
One thing, a lot of you have brought up the combat effectiveness of flight. It's not supposed to be combat effective, and that won't change. Ever. The Acc penalty will always be there. Why? Hover. How many powers can you really put into a flight pool? Let's look.
Air Superiority. [censored]? Its a [censored] hit with knockdown and possible stun. The only thing that ties it to flight is the name. It's basically Bonesmasher with less damage.
Hover. Slow flight.
Fly. Duh.
Group Flight. ....Seriously? Who can do this besides telekinetics? Gravity controllers, kinetic controllers, magic users. What hero can fly and make others fly due to their FLIGHT power? This is concept.
Fly pool = Flight and 3 filler powers. Hover will stay for that reason in addition to the multitude of other players that already have it. Hover is what it was originally named. Combat Flight. So let's move on from the combat effectiveness of flight.
Comparing Combat Effectiveness of flight to SS as a benefit/drawback, fine. But thats not the purpose. The purpose is travel. Other uses are an addition, not definition.
It would be nice if the Acc penalty was gone, but it would also be nice if travel powers didn't have pre reqs.
Travel is about getting from point A to point B. You want to factor in safety? SS, SJ and TP all get you there just as safe. And if you get tagged, with all 3 of those you are gone before getting hit (again). With Flight, you can be safe, unless sniped, and take twice as long(at least) to get to your destination. How safe? Depends how long you want to take. SS, SJ and TP can all be just as safe by going around the obstacles (enemies) as Flight is by going above them, and they will still be faster. Thing is, they don't HAVE to go around. They can go THROUGH and be just as safe as Flight, with on rare occasions, getting hit once before being gone.
For those that want to argue Shadow Shard. Guess what. Flight is so slow, that SS and SJ can move through its obstacles before Flight gets where it wants to be, and still arive well before the flier. Annoying? Yes, but so is flying all the way to your destination. But in addition to that, most people just wait for the TP'er to get there and recall everyone anyway.
Vert movement in general? There are FEW instances where SS has trouble getting where it needs to be, without any vert power at all. There are ramps and hills everywhere except the Shard, which has gysers anyway. TV and Faultline are the biggest problem zones. Discounting the fact that once you know where to go to get certain places you can be there in a flash, yes, for new speeders its a major hassle. In Fault, most just don't drop into the giant holes.
Geko, bro, ya just don't get it. You seem to believe that the vertical axis is God, and flight is UBER because it lets you move up and down. big frikkin' deal. That's the lamest argument ever. Has been since day one.
I kite mobs with SS WAY better than I ever did with flight, because I can break LOS by putting buildings and fences between me and mobs in a split second. What does a flier do? Fly higher, get shot a bunch (good range on the mobs these days), and hope to get out of range before they die.
Oooh! Tremble at the mighty power of the Z-axis!
With SS I can snipe a holding/mezzing mob, and be so far away by the time they retaliate that their status effect runs out and I can get away totally unscathed, wait for them to de-aggro, and repeat the process. It's effective immunity to status effects. Nothing short of an AV presents a threat to me with my SS up and running. SS is safer and more useful in general due to it's stealth component (unless the user is completely retarded) and has such a slight endurance cost (and no inherent -acc penalty) that I just leave it on all the time. No reason not to. SS has it all over flight even without the much vaunted "vertical mobility." Cheesy lame argument. Obvoiusly SS is your special baby, and you luv it. The other movement powers are decently balanced. So why must flight remain the subpar pariah ******* child of the movement powers? You are allowed take it for character concept, but you still have to take a real travel power to actually get around without making your whole team wait on your sorry slow butt. Cowboy up and fix the stupid thing already! Heck just swapping out the end cost of flight and SS would go a long way toward balance.
I think people are trying to merge the contexts of a combat power versus a travel power.
For fighting, Superspeed is safer. For traveling to missions, to sell, etc. Fly is safer.
Fly, all on it's own, with one slot, will get you everywhere.
Superspeed, all on it's own, with one slot, won't even come close.
I have characters that are exclusive fliers. But I'd be stupid if I had characters that were exclusive superspeeders. Having the ability to jump up is vital in so many areas of the game. Superspeed needs other powers to make up for it's significant shortcoming.
Would I fight with Fly on? No. Would I fight with Superspeed on? I do, quite often.
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Would I fight with Fly on? No. Would I fight with Superspeed on? I do, quite often.
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Geko's statement was something like "If Fly was as fast as Superspeed, why would anybody take Superspeed?"
Aside from the fact that it's an erroneous question (Fly doesn't have to be as fast as Superspeed to be faster than Fly currently is), there are ample reasons which have been well-stated why somebody somebody would take SS even if they were the same speed.
I (and many others) would be fine if you made Fly the "fast moving and infinitely maneuverable non-combat travel power" and made Superspeed the "fast moving and much less maneuverable combat travel power." Superjump really strikes a good balance of the two qualities. Fly doesn't.
As it is right now, Fly is the "slow moving, infinitely maneuverable non-combat travel power."
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The end result would be:
Flight
1) no stealth
2) nearly 4 times the endurance cost
Superspeed
1) no vertical movement
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This leaves Super Jump as a nice halfway point between the two, as it gains limited vertical movement in exchange for the stealth and some speed.
Teleport needs to fit into this as well, but I don't know very much about it, so I will leave that to someone else.
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Teleport:
1) Hard to use
2) High end cost
3) Fastest speed, especially slotted
4) Hard to use
In a straight line, slotted TP is the fastest travel power by a lot. However, in crowded situations it's completely useless, and in other zones like Dark Astoria, it's so insanely frustrating that many people respec out of it altogether. I took it to get around the rooting aspect of Unyielding Stance, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't have the patience to work with it and the slots to dedicate to faster travel. Unslotted, both SS and SJ are better.
OK - I just wanted to throw my thoughts out here. Many of which are going to echo what fellow players already have expressed.
I think Geko's rationale is flawed: Flying is not the safest any more. A few examples I have are these: 1) I'm fying around Striga to try to map the area out (which is a painfully slow process) when I start receiving massive damage from a howitzer (or rocket launcher) based on the ground below me. 2) In Talos I had a Freak Show thug (I believe Juicer) FLY after me while shooting lighting blasts. This freaked me out cause this was the first flying villian I had seen, now add on top of that Skyraider Skiffs. 3) I've been dropped while flying by random street thugs shooting crap at me. Arrows can be pretty painful when retreating from another group.
Now tell me the examples I've listed are any different from a Super Jumping hero taking a second to land then jump away, or the split second a superspeedster is close to an attacker when running by. There is just as much chance a flyer can be attacked as a super jumper or superspeedster can.
Now as far as "who'd take super speed?". I think this is a lame response. Besides the differences still inherent in game mechanics there is the roleplaying aspect. Now I know there are the players out there that just want the best sequence of powers to be able to walk through everything and take no damage, but there are also people out there that actually want to create a strong character and play within character. As example my primary character is one that I had played in a roleplaying group. He had flight and to stay true to the character I went with flight, despite everyone warning me that flight sucked. Now I know it's not as bad as can be portrayed, but I do have to admit that flight is a let down. I still have it and will not respec out of it becuase it fits the character I created, and that is the whole reason I play.
Now that I have my little rants out of the way. I would like to ask why Geko has only had 2 responses early on in this board? Why have no other designers stepped up to also give some insight. Where is Statesman on this? It seems to me this thread has gotten a lot of responses, a lot of gamers are questioning the issue and airing their concerns. The issue genuinely merits attention/consideration, and not be blown off with 2 quick comments.
True there are exceptions to both fly and superspeed being safe methods of travel. But as a whole fly is safer.
If you're going to use other powers to supplement the travel powers to make them safer, or more useful, you're not directly comparing those powers.
I love SS. It's a great power. But without Hurdle and at least Combat Jump it's a pain to rely on. And it still has noticable shortcomings.
Having intimate knowledge maps and easy spots that let you jump up, but even Hurdle is needed to allow SSers to go up marginally inclines. And without the air control from Combat Jump it's more of a challenge negotiating some slopes.
I've played heroes with all four of the major travel powers, extensively, singly and in combinations (not claiming to be special, just qualifying).
SS+SJ is probably best overall. It's an awesome combo of horizontal-vertical motion, mid-air control, and sheer speed.
That being said, Fly is still my favorite travel power. No other power is as versatile indoors or out. In some places, like the catwalk room of the hydra trial, there's simply no better travel power than Fly. For my bubble defender, hovering right over the group is an ideal position.
Nevertheless, Fly should have a higher maximum speed. By the time you can afford to invest that many SO slots in Fly, no Speeder really cares if your maximum flight speed is plenty fast. Typically, we'd just as soon not have to wait for you to arrive, assuming no recaller. Besides, as has been observed, the Speed pool includes Hasten, so Speeders don't have to lose one of their four pools for that. Speed also has the Stealth component and no accuracy penalty, so there are plenty of good reasons to take Speed even if Fly were competitively fast in the high ranks.
Teleport is definitely the weakest travel power. The micro is intensive. It's endurance-hungry. It's lag-susceptible. The pool still tops out with the worthless Teleport Group instead of the Teleport to Waypoint power most sensible heroes (but no devs, apparently) would rather have. By the time you reach the 30s and 40s, the Teleport speed advantage is negligible or absent. It's a tolerable evil if you want to have Recall available, and it does allow Shard travel, and it does allow Immobilized movement (much less meaningful in the age of Unyielding). However, just as Fly could use about another SO's worth of speed, Teleport needs a bit of fine-tuning. The "flexing" activation animation should be removed so that travel is immediate, and the forced hover should be cancel-able by directional movement. Then Teleport would be worthy of its endurance cost.
Extensive traveler of PC,
FCM
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
One thing I think would help teleport, on that note, is the ability to scale the distance you are teleporting in and out. This alone would make the power far more useful. I have a character with teleport + hover (to combat the lag and to be able to fight mid-air), and if I could choose to just teleport 30 yards up into the air, I frequently would. As is, I have to do a massive triangle (straight up, diagonally down, diagonally down) in order to get to the position i would like to be in for combat.
When it comes to flight, I think it's ok to have the base speed as is - flight's not supposed to be as fast as superspeed, and i can live with that - but why have the cap speed so low? I would love to be able to soar through the skies at top speed, and would arguably "waste" five enhancement slots from the ideal build just so my character could do so.
One other thought -- maybe make the speed from SS stack with fly? Maybe that's too overpowering - but I know the first thing that came to my mind when I saw a flier was "Hey, I wonder if he can speed like Superman?".
Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter.
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Anyways, Fly is by far the crappiest travel power in the game and one of the game's biggest disappointments.
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no matter how you dice it Geko. . . this dude is right.
Super Heros for many many folks means flying and it is simply a fact that, although you can argue its balance and pros/cons blah blah blah, its the least fun.
The biggest let down by far.
I think that fly should have its maximum speed increase - if the devs are worried about it being better than SS just make the maximum speed less than SS's max speed.
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Teleport is definitely the weakest travel power. The micro is intensive. It's endurance-hungry. It's lag-susceptible. The pool still tops out with the worthless Teleport Group instead of the Teleport to Waypoint power most sensible heroes (but no devs, apparently) would rather have. By the time you reach the 30s and 40s, the Teleport speed advantage is negligible or absent. It's a tolerable evil if you want to have Recall available, and it does allow Shard travel, and it does allow Immobilized movement (much less meaningful in the age of Unyielding). However, just as Fly could use about another SO's worth of speed, Teleport needs a bit of fine-tuning. The "flexing" activation animation should be removed so that travel is immediate, and the forced hover should be cancel-able by directional movement. Then Teleport would be worthy of its endurance cost.
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Are you joking? Teleport is the fastest travel power hands down. I respeced out of my SS which was at the speed cap to pick up Teleport and I now go at minimum twice as fast as before (granted I do have 6 range slots in TP). That's not to say TP doesn't have its downsides. My biggest problem is that my range is 220 yds in the air but I can't target the ground unless it is 100 yds or closer to me. Also I would like to see the hover time increased and you break out of it if you hit any movement keys.
BTW any 39+ SR scrappers out there want to live on the wild side? Run perma-elude and tp in the shadow shard. I guarantee you'll be in for the ride of your life, especially if you don't have any CAB's on you.
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I've played heroes with all four of the major travel powers, extensively, singly and in combinations (not claiming to be special, just qualifying).
SS+SJ is probably best overall. It's an awesome combo of horizontal-vertical motion, mid-air control, and sheer speed.
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I agree with that and everything else you said. I do think the SS+SJ combo is the most versatile for me and all but 2 of my characters has both. One has only SJ and the other has only Fly.
I do, however, have SS+SJ+Fly on my main, Rooftop Raider. Something great about being able to rely on all of those, depending on situation.
Also one thing I failed to mention is I recall a Dev (Statesman?) saying that the(a) reason for keeping flight slow is that it requires too much to animate everything a flier see's at a high speed. Birds eye view requires a lot of graphic rendering.
However, superjumpers with SS render would seem to prove that wrong, since they spend most of their time at high altitudes at high speeds, even without SS.
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Anyways, Fly is by far the crappiest travel power in the game and one of the game's biggest disappointments.
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no matter how you dice it Geko. . . this dude is right.
Super Heros for many many folks means flying and it is simply a fact that, although you can argue its balance and pros/cons blah blah blah, its the least fun.
The biggest let down by far.
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Id have to argue the point and say Superstrength outranks Fly as far as disappointment goes and both should have been "no brainers" when it came to delivering the goods on two of the most iconic, historically longed for abilities in human history.
Flying should be an invigorating thrill ride, a Dukes of Hazzard YEEHAW power, not a "oh I can go get a drink, toss the clothes in the dryer, change my kids diaper a while I fly across Independence Port" ski lift trip. I'm beginning to see why Statesman has survived so many skirmishes and wars, HES THE LAST ONE TO ARRIVE.
Remember when the first Superman movie came out ? The billboards said "You will believe a man can fly" ..not "You wont believe how safe he is up there" I agree with many others that it doesnt have to be as fast as Superspeed but with heavy slotting it should be faster than it is today. This isnt a game unbalancing decision, its about "feel" "tone" "expectations"
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You wont believe how safe he is
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I'm beginning to see why Statesman has survived so many skirmishes and wars, HES THE LAST ONE TO ARRIVE.
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Just wanted to say thank you. This was one of the funniest lines I have read in a long time here.
hahahahah
This is like the longest tennis match ever!
Tell you what, just pick what you want. You're a rockstar superhero and nobody tells you what to do!