Flight.. The 5th slowest travel power..
By
AngryMonkey,
Posted on: 2005-01-11 23:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I think that the lack of a big accuracy debuff, the stealth component, the inferior end usage and the fact it's paired with hasten would make superspeed better than fly even if they were equally fast.
Really Geko, if only you would remove the accuracy debuff from fly I would keep it, but since it's strictly relegated to travelling around, and it's slow and costy as a travel power, I finally decided to remove and took superspeed.
The accuracy debuff is what kills fly for me.
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2) Concept - Teleporter: Requiring commitment to three power pools. Minimum powers include Recall, TP (4 slots), and Swift. You are just too slow keeping up with the party unless you take Swift (and let's face it, everyone takes Fitness). To make this power less chaotic (ever tire to TP onto a roof you are standing at the base of?) you need to take Hover. Falling just starts way to soon for you to reorient, point and click. We all have war stories of not getting a TP locked before hitting the ground taking half your HPs only to land in the middle of a group of DE. Not to mention the end cost for crossing IP. Who wants to fall in the water because you are out of end? That's 3 power pools with TP getting most your slots and probably some thrown to Hover (would go 4-6).
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I run one-slotted TP with no Hover and it gets me everywhere I want to go, and fast, too. If you have slotted out your Stamina, the end requirements for TP are a non-issue.
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I think that the lack of a big accuracy debuff, the stealth component, the inferior end usage and the fact it's paired with hasten would make superspeed better than fly even if they were equally fast.
Really Geko, if only you would remove the accuracy debuff from fly I would keep it, but since it's strictly relegated to travelling around, and it's slow and costy as a travel power, I finally decided to remove and took superspeed.
The accuracy debuff is what kills fly for me.
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I think that reallly gets to the essence of the problem. Fly really is terrible for combat (due to the end usage and the accuracy debuff) and isn't all that great for travel either (it's sloooow).
Even if you fixed the SPEED of fly, that doesn't make SS inferior... SS is still probably the most combat-functional travel power. People would pick Fly for fast, 3D movement and speed for fast horizontal movement and combat.
The problem with fly is that it has a few small problems that add up.
Fly is slow. Fly is the slowest of the 4 travel powers in pure speed. Someone has to be slowest. Being able to move in a straight line does make some difference, but vertical obstacles are rarely much of an impediment.
Fly is costly. Fly is the second most costly power after teleport. The equivalent of a single origin endurance reducer makes fly break even endurance-wise, but you can't run any other toggles. Also Stamina alone makes unslotted fly break even if no other toggles are used.
Fly is not combat friendly. The accuracy penalty on fly is HUGE. I tend to go overboard on accuracy for my characters and I still can't hit regularly while using flight. Even if fly had no accuracy penalty, the endurance drain of both flying and using the toggle ensures I couldn't stay in flight to fight.
Yeah, fly really should be as fast as Superspeed. The only reason I'd choose one over another really depends on the characters background. For example my Knight Thorn character would never fly, hes a dark brooding, vigilante type whos honed his fighting skills and body to a diamond like an unstoppable fighting monk. He can superjump but flight just wouldn't seem right. My Electric Blaster Elektra Watts though would never use superjump because she can travel by way of electrical currents and therefore superspeed would be the natural, logical choice. Captain Mexico, my Fire Blaster uses Flight for traveling because it goes with his cape and his whole background as well.-Hes like a Superman for Mexico. That goes into another thing I think sucks and that being lack of options at level 20 besides being able to choose a cape. Some heros do not need capes, Cryptic should give us an alternative at level 20. Knight Thorn or Elektra Watts won't be getting one, they should get more costume options or some aura options or maybe 2 more slots or an extra power choice.
I have a better solution for capes... to get off topic for a moment. Don't give anything at 20. Allow capes at level 1, for crying out loud. Telling someone they have to earn a cape is like making them earn spiked gloves. It's a part of the costume!
I basically powerleveled to level 20, just so I'd have a cape. I felt silly without one. (Just like another of my alts would look silly WITH one)
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Fly really is terrible for combat (due to the end usage and the accuracy debuff) and isn't all that great for travel either (it's sloooow).
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I was curious about this. Do people fight with Fly running? I usually switch to Hover while attacking and then switch back to Fly only to change where I'm Hovering.
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I'd just like to point out, I'm not saying the boards are 100% of the player base. They are not even 5%... more like 1%. But this is what is called a Random Sample...
From an online polling company...
"A random sample is the result of a process whereby a selection of participants is made from a larger population and each subject is chosen entirely by chance. "
It's a fairly accurate way of interpreting the larger population's opinion. And it's pretty clear what that opinion is on these boards...
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But this is not a random sampling. The people on this board are the ones that actively decided to go on the boards. What's random about that? Usually, these are the more 'hard core' type of player especially looking at the arguments here.
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I'd just like to point out, I'm not saying the boards are 100% of the player base. They are not even 5%... more like 1%. But this is what is called a Random Sample...
From an online polling company...
"A random sample is the result of a process whereby a selection of participants is made from a larger population and each subject is chosen entirely by chance. "
It's a fairly accurate way of interpreting the larger population's opinion. And it's pretty clear what that opinion is on these boards...
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But this is not a random sampling. The people on this board are the ones that actively decided to go on the boards. What's random about that? Usually, these are the more 'hard core' type of player especially looking at the arguments here.
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Your point being? That the people on these boards don't represent the player base?
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Yeah, fly really should be as fast as Superspeed.
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*looks for the word "speed" in Fly*
*doesn't see it*
*looks for the word "speed" in Superspeed*
Aha!
It's not Speed Fly, it's Fly. What we really need is a better 4th Flight power that rockets you around at SS speeds, but limits maneuverability (like Cannonball). Who uses Group Fly, anyway?
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If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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Because everyone takes Hasten.
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What he said.
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If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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To make things clearer regarding the differences between the two powers, lets view the two travel powers in "drawbacks" (even disregarding the fact that hasten is far, far better than any other travel pre-req), assuming that combining the benefits of the two would be the ultimate (and an unbalanced) travelpower (effectively superspeed with full vertical movement):
Flight:
1) Requires 4 SOs to reach the base speed, and only has 60% of the max speed.
2) Costs nearly 4 times the endurance (-2 EPS as opposed to -.53)
3) Acc penalty
4) No stealth
Superspeed
1) No vertical movement.
See the problem here? Now, the stealth component of Super Speed is there to offset the inherent danger of the lack of vertical movement, but it doesn't offset the lack of vertical movement in itself. So, Flight should have one more significant drawback aside from the lack of stealth.
So, Geko, please drop two of the flight drawbacks. Preferably the -Acc and the lower speed base and cap. I say to leave the endurance cost because if Flight didn't have either the endurance cost or the -Acc, hover would be worthless, and with the -Acc, Air Superiority's usefulness as a pre-req is diminished.
The end result would be:
Flight
1) no stealth
2) nearly 4 times the endurance cost
Superspeed
1) no vertical movement
Edit:
This leaves Super Jump as a nice halfway point between the two, as it gains limited vertical movement in exchange for the stealth and some speed.
Teleport needs to fit into this as well, but I don't know very much about it, so I will leave that to someone else.
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Here's my 2 Inf...
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Sounds like this player has invested in 4 powers - 3 of which he choose, and most of which he has probably slotted more than 6, and he still cannot fly. How much more of an investment did he make compared to your 1 power? How much did he have to give up compared to you and he still cannot go vertical.
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Actually, he really gave up nothing, except maybe a couple slots. Each power mentioned has plenty of use and, except Swift, gives benefits in other areas as well. Even Swift is one of the prerequisite for Stamina so that's not even a wasted power slot. Odds are, the Flyer had Swift too in order to get Stamina. The non-flying character maybe spent 2-3 more slots than the flier but he STILL gets more functionality out of his slots than the flier does anyway.
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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"Ultimately safer"?!? I don't think so. There's only TWO ways that Flight is safer than Superspeed and that only accounts for about 5-10% of actual usage of the powers at best. First, it's _simpler_ to fly far enough away from enemies to be out of agro range. Superspeed is still really easy to avoid agro as well though, you just can't go on "autopilot" with it. Second, ambushes are more easily avoided, unless there's fliers in the ambush which, I'll admit, is pretty rare.
Superspeed has that stealth component and that alone makes it much safer than Fly 90+% of the time, unless you always spend 15-30 seconds flying straight up to get high enough to be out of agro range. With Superspeed, you just need to be about 5-10 feet away from enemies, with Flight, you need to be 30-40 feet above them or however far unstealthed agro range is.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not talking theory here. Yes, I will admit, in theory, Flight is MUCH safer than Superspeed. Technically, it has to be. But when you actually apply the game mechanics of the two powers, you get a MUCH different picture. In actual game application, Superspeed comes out to be a VASTLY superior power. Faster travel. Stealth side effect. Lower Endurance usage. No accuracy penalty.
Here's my idea to fix the problem. Remove the Accuracy penalty from Fly, or at least reduce it to 10 or 15%. Slightly lower the Endurance cost of Fly by about 10%. Let Swift and Superspeed stack with Fly with the same max speed as Superspeed currently has. Apply a larger Accuracy penalty for using BOTH Superspeed AND Fly at the same time.
That would solve a LOT of complaints right there in a nutshell on a few different complaints. People who want to Fly faster can Spend FOUR Power choices and a number of slots to get Fly and Superspeed. That alone is enough of a sacrifice to make it reasonable. It will also cost a LOT of endurance to have both Travel Powers on at the same time. Superfast fliers won't be doing strafing runs since their Acc will be even more in the pits (even though strafing runs aren't very effective anyway).
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Fly really is terrible for combat (due to the end usage and the accuracy debuff) and isn't all that great for travel either (it's sloooow).
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I was curious about this. Do people fight with Fly running? I usually switch to Hover while attacking and then switch back to Fly only to change where I'm Hovering.
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They don't if they're smart. That's kind of the problem to me. Teleport aside (since it isn't a toggle and has its own problems), SS and SJ are both useful in combat, as are their prerequisite powers, which can be used at the same time.
Fly isn't just "not useful." It's a downright disadvantage in combat... it has a huge endurance drain and a severe accuracy penalty.
My fear: people here are saying "please fix Fly, it isn't as good as the other good travel powers." I'm afraid Geko is going to hear, instead "Please nerf SJ/SS... they're better than fly."
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I'd just like to point out, I'm not saying the boards are 100% of the player base. They are not even 5%... more like 1%. But this is what is called a Random Sample...
From an online polling company...
"A random sample is the result of a process whereby a selection of participants is made from a larger population and each subject is chosen entirely by chance. "
It's a fairly accurate way of interpreting the larger population's opinion. And it's pretty clear what that opinion is on these boards...
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But this is not a random sampling. The people on this board are the ones that actively decided to go on the boards. What's random about that? Usually, these are the more 'hard core' type of player especially looking at the arguments here.
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Your point being? That the people on these boards don't represent the player base?
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Read the part again about 'chosen entirely by chance' in your original message. There is no 'chance' about the people that come to these boards. I really don't see how you can think there is. It's the vocal people that come here with strong opinions. If every player was like the ones on these boards, they would all be reading and posting on these boards.
Another point on that "safety" issue. The difference is very clearly represented in the way these powers are used in game. Take the Cavern of Transcendence....
If you're having trouble clearing the cavern, what do you do? Have a superspeeder go find the stones, and if he's got Recall Friend, have him TP them to the stones. This tactic is also used in "kill boss" missions by a lot of folks.
You don't fly to avoid aggro, you don't jump to avoid aggro. I suppose to a certain extent you can TP. But the fact is, superspeed is the safest travel power indoors, which is where you're typically in the most danger...
Outdoors, well, it's still pretty darn safe, but I imagine flight has it beat for its more or less nullification of enemy contact.
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Okay, so a friend of mine has no official travel power. He has Swift, Sprint, Quickness, and Elude (spelling). I have no idea how he has them slotted but he is faster than my 42 flyer and I have 6 slots full of max SO speeds (yes i know it caps out at 4. consider the other 2 saftey systems incase one fails...)
now i've always been content with flights speed. sure i would like it to be faster, but i didn't have anything against it.
but this just makes it so worthless now. someone without a travel power can move faster than me and i am as fast as i can go.. i'm not demanding something be done, i just want to bring it up. i want to make sure the devs know that we can be slower than someone without a travel power..
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Ask your friend to race you across Faultine, Eden, or Boomtown. Or to the back of the cemetery in Dark Astoria. See who wins.
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Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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I'd just like to point out, I'm not saying the boards are 100% of the player base. They are not even 5%... more like 1%. But this is what is called a Random Sample...
From an online polling company...
"A random sample is the result of a process whereby a selection of participants is made from a larger population and each subject is chosen entirely by chance. "
It's a fairly accurate way of interpreting the larger population's opinion. And it's pretty clear what that opinion is on these boards...
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But this is not a random sampling. The people on this board are the ones that actively decided to go on the boards. What's random about that? Usually, these are the more 'hard core' type of player especially looking at the arguments here.
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Your point being? That the people on these boards don't represent the player base?
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Read the part again about 'chosen entirely by chance' in your original message. There is no 'chance' about the people that come to these boards. I really don't see how you can think there is. It's the vocal people that come here with strong opinions. If every player was like the ones on these boards, they would all be reading and posting on these boards.
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Ok, let me ask again. What's your point? I'll agree, we're not random. So..........er..... what's your point, other than to nitpick the word random? Does this have any impact on what I said that the board posters are a good sampling of the player base?
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Sounds like this player has invested in 4 powers - 3 of which he choose, and most of which he has probably slotted more than 6, and he still cannot fly. How much more of an investment did he make compared to your 1 power? How much did he have to give up compared to you and he still cannot go vertical.
No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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This is utterly utterly wrong.
First Combat Jump and hurdle unslotted are faster than a moderatly? slotted flight.
Also hurdle is part of the all important fitness line so is bsically a must take anyway. Regardless that is two powers with NO slots over riding Fly with slots, Oh wait Fly IS two powers cause you have to get hover first.
Second.
<ul type="square"> [*] Super speed is WAY safer than flight. So much so that to say otherwise just boggles my mind.
Who is their right mind is going to take what is already the slowest travel power, fly straight up till they can not fly any higher then cross the zone till they get directly over where they are going and fly/plummet to earth? Even then what is to stop the flyer getting shreded by the guys outside his mission door? Is there some pervasive dellusion that bad guys don't shoot up?
When you are flying you ae bascially running right by the bad guys with a slightly less chance to aggro cause your up higher(greater distance to target due to elevation?) or maybe that is cause you are moving.
[*] Super speed has stealth. The super speed stealth is so good that you can run right beside baddies and there is a very very good chance they will not notice. I remeber once with super speed I was typing and smashed into a wall just out side of punching range of a group of trolls, I though for sure I was dead but by the time they noticed me I had finish my typing took control and zoomed off. Lets try to see someone do that with flight.
[*] Runnig Away
When you are flying and fall under attack, a moderatly frequent occurance, you move so slowly, the bad guys range is so long, and with the client/server "lag" issue means that you can still get hit far away from the baddies. How many times have we watched as a blaster desperately tried to gain alltiude to avoid death only to plummet to the earth dead after several seconds of fleeing?[*]Line Of Sight
When you leave behind the bad guys with super speed most likely walls, buildings, etc. will obstruct the LOS of the baddies to your hero, long before you get out of attack range. Again with flight you most often stay in LOS the whole distance.[*] Breaking Aggro
Aggro durabuility seems to be related to distance between the hero and the bad guy. Until the bad goes so far from his spawn point or the distance between villian and hero reachs whatever the critical distance is the bad guys will continue to follow. End result even when a super speeder gains aggro they loose it in the next instant. Not so with flight a flyer can spend forever and a day trying to shake of aggro, especially funny when you can't go up for fear of entering villian LOS. Also this has had the interesting side effect that magmamen aggro is VERY hard to shake with flight, basically there is only up.[*] Villian AI Attacks
As long as a villian has a resonable chance to catch up and smite the target in melee most villians will attempt to close the distance, no matter how illogical this action maybe. With flight as soon as you get enough clearance many Villians realise they have no chance to pursue and immediatly switch to guns. [*] Stun/Mezz/Sleep/etc.
Lastly my personal favorite, the one thing I reserve hatred for beyond all other things, the one thing mostly likely to end my playing of CoH.... STUN. (When you read that words imagine saying it coming from deep in the chest and curdling in the mouth with a clenched jaw and sneering breath.)
In general circumstances stun sucks its everywhere in the later game and totally turns flight off. Which of course means you plummet to the ground can no longer flee and since you were flying you are still right beside the enemies. Boy that sure is fun.
Any delusions of the "fun" of flight can be washed away swiftly at night in peregrine Island. Unless you take great pains to fly way up (skyscraper level) and avoid the "danger streets" you will get stun/slept/held by something at sometime. The carnies, rikit and malta in particual have an insane aggro range and an exellent set of stun powers. There is NOTHING so infuriating as getting frozen(for damage) by a malta boss while "zipping" though PI at rooftop level, plummeting to the earth (for more damage) and then waiting for all the malta troops to zig zag through the city to get to you while you can do nothing but watch in helpless awe as they run down the street, and since you are now on the ground they switch to melee so it drags it out even longer then finally you break free right before they get to you, but WAIT oh no you FLY so once you toggle it back try to flee you can't gain any distance and they stun grenade you(for even more damage but you have healed by now)!!!
Then if you are reeeealy lucky they just obliterate you if you unlucky they switch on their tasers and poke at you for a bit till the boss(who moves pretty slow) get with in what ever range he feels like shooting you at, sometimes long, sometimes short always a surprise and puts you out of your misery. Oh and this process is ten times more fun if your a defender and can't curb the urge to heal yourself and just give up.
Is psycology this is called learned helplessness and is a very very very bad thing.[/list]Thirdly
Every other power in the flight set ranges from "of dubious value" to out right sucks. Air superioity is pretty good but realistically a silly choice. Hover is a slow, awkward to use doubley so indoors, provides +def but you can not keep it running like all the others and is vulnerable to stun with the falling fun that entails, so in other words the best power in the flight set but one of the crappier powers in the power pools. Oh and finally the gem of group flight.... I think some controllers have a use for it, and I know alot of defenders that get it and later learn to regret it.
Fouthly
Just remebered this.
Flight take four slots to get to full speed and still munchs heavy end. Oh yeah and -Acc so no fighting with it on
Super speed is optiional slotting, do it if you want to go faster. Also it is low end munch and has no -Acc and interefers with no power that provides +def.
Now lets look at super speed.
Flurry, a very cool looking power but I belive statisically proven to be not very good. Haste(need anymore be said? You could play without this power and have fun but why bother?) Super speed super zippy travel power with virtually no end cost, no -ACC, and STEALTH that is usable always, better if the bad guys break stealth your travel powers is going so you can already be zipping away when the shooting starts. Finally whirlwind, um it sucked then people realised it was very good, and now I think it got nerfed and there for sucks? but then that could be stupid people saying stupid things, really I have no idea.
I played a character from 6-50 with flight.
A character from 6-37 with CJ and hurdle
A character from 14-30 with super speed
A character from 14-30 with teleport
A character from 14-16 with super jump 
Flight sucks on an absolutle degree as detailed above.
Teleport is probably the fastest and safest travel power but it also an utter pain in the but to use and ulitmatly not really worth the effort.
Super Jump, can't comment only made it level 16 with that character, mostly due to the fact that super speed is a why not power.
Super Speed seriously why not? You want to have haste, since you spent the power pool slot why not just take super speed? It gives you stealth and you never have to turn it off. Thats bascially win, win, win, win. Sure no verticalls is a drag but since your getting the fitness pool get hurdle and your good to go.
In conclusion:
I am baffled by the end of gekos statement. Why would anyone choose super speed? How about why would anyojne choose flight.
I tell you why someone whould choose flight, ignorance of the game, roleplaying, and super heros are suppose to fly. Three piss poor reasons to waste a power pool slot on, but hey if you got the space no worries then.
Seriously I though you guys can datamine your game.
Run this query.
a) how many people have flight (not counting KHELDS)
b) how many people have super speed
c) how many people with super speed have flight (these are the people with the spare slots for whimsy)
I can tell you right now the results. Super speed everywhere, teleport no where, flight rarely there, super jump there.
FLIGHT BAD!!!
SUPER SPEED GOOD!!!
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Fly really is terrible for combat (due to the end usage and the accuracy debuff) and isn't all that great for travel either (it's sloooow).
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I was curious about this. Do people fight with Fly running? I usually switch to Hover while attacking and then switch back to Fly only to change where I'm Hovering.
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I used to fight with hover but that was rare. Now that I respec my blaster I chose Air superiority because another attack power can't hurt. 
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I'd just like to point out, I'm not saying the boards are 100% of the player base. They are not even 5%... more like 1%. But this is what is called a Random Sample...
From an online polling company...
"A random sample is the result of a process whereby a selection of participants is made from a larger population and each subject is chosen entirely by chance. "
It's a fairly accurate way of interpreting the larger population's opinion. And it's pretty clear what that opinion is on these boards...
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But this is not a random sampling. The people on this board are the ones that actively decided to go on the boards. What's random about that? Usually, these are the more 'hard core' type of player especially looking at the arguments here.
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Your point being? That the people on these boards don't represent the player base?
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Read the part again about 'chosen entirely by chance' in your original message. There is no 'chance' about the people that come to these boards. I really don't see how you can think there is. It's the vocal people that come here with strong opinions. If every player was like the ones on these boards, they would all be reading and posting on these boards.
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Ok, let me ask again. What's your point? I'll agree, we're not random. So..........er..... what's your point, other than to nitpick the word random? Does this have any impact on what I said that the board posters are a good sampling of the player base?
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So....er.....what was your point of trying to say it was random in the first place then? I thought it was misleading to say the least when your data provided did not back up your conclusion. So, you truly believe that the opinion of the people on this board represent the population of CoH as whole even though you are now saying this is not the random sampling you first claimed it was? How do you come about this conclusion? My point is that you should not assume that what is popular opinion on these boards is popular opinion within the game itself.
Why do you think the devs make changes and then seem unresponsive when the boards are on fire with the flames cast by board members? I guarantee they look at these opinions and will look to see if it is true but they data mine, which DOES reflect the population as a whole.
For the flight example: Obviously enough people must be still using it or they would change it to try and balance it out with the other travel powers more. If it was as fast as super speed, how many of the player base in the game would really take any other travel power? Most would not even care/notice that it had an ACC penalty. I'm betting, and this is my opinon, we would have City of Fliers in no time.
Hehe, as opposed to City of Superspeeders? Look around you next time you're in game... It's already here.
(Oops. Double post.)
If the lack of z-axis mobility is supposed to have any meaning whatsoever, then the Devs need to stop altering geometry to allow people without SS to access things. This has already happened for a number of badges. And what other purpose does the gravity geysers have other than to give people without flight in The Shard access to the same places fliers can go to? Can anyone name the important places a flier can get to that a SSer cannot? I believe the sum total is a badge or two. This is the entirely of the z-axis penalty. This is why SS is superior, and will continue to be - it is unlikely the Devs are going to intentionally shut out a significant portion of the user base despite the added utility this might create for teleport and group fly powers.
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there isn't a travel power that offers protection from snipers.
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I have yet to be sniped while using Teleport. I only exist every hundred or so yards, and then only for a couple of seconds. Skipping all that intervening space seems to help a lot with snipers.