Why must Exemplar-ing suck?
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2004-10-02 18:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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If a white minion gives 100 experience normally, it will give 75 influence as well:
Exemplared, with debt: 100 debt removed
Exemplared, w/o debt: 100 influence
Normal, with debt: 50 experience, 50 debt, 75 influence
Normal, w/o debt: 100 experience, 75 influence
If a white boss gives 400 experience, it will give 1600 influence as well:
Exemplared, with debt: 400 debt removed
Exemplared, w/o debt: 400 influence
Normal, with debt: 200 experience, 200 debt, 1600 influence
Normal, w/o debt: 400 experience, 1600 influence
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numerically, this is the best explanation of exemplar xp i have seen. bravo.
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In all cases it is much better to chug through your debt w/o Exemplaring. You will:
1. Make progress and can actually level.
2. You will gain the same exp/debt removal, but gain more influence.
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...but i must comment on this. #1 is only half right. only by not being exemplar'd can you level. HOWEVER, you do make progress while being ex'ed, as long as
A) you have debt, and
B) you are not dying while Ex'ed.
Allow me to elaborate. you just hit level 34, and you do some stupid stuff while hunting. lets say you die 8 times in a row and now have 4 bubbles of debt. you WILL have to work through those four bubbles to level. period. therefor working them off while ex'ed is, in essence, advancing. DO note, however, that dieing while exemplaring quite literally pushes back your progress. Once you have worked all your debt off, however, your progress immediately stops cold. Dying at this point does not mean you begin progressing again, it just means you undid some of your fine work to this point.
point 2, on the other hand, is fully true. due to not receiving SO's every other drop, I do not get as much inf when I ex down. i assume no one else does either, though i could be wrong.
The system does offer some benefits less tangible than straight xp that should be considered.
1) You get to play, educate, and make friends with lowbies. This means more intelligent players in the game, improving the community as a while. It ALSO means when time comes to Ex down to do a TF, you'll know some people who won't neccisarily get you killed.
2) lets you work on badges that would otherwise just be a grind. doing some lowbie missions helps get you a hellion or bone daddie badge. It also takes you past exploration badges that you might not have found just wandering on your own (example: I got the healing node badge because i went with my asperant to meet her contact, vitaly cherenko, who i never would have bothered to go back and see. I got the secret admirer badge in the same way, travelling through lower level areas of steel canyon.)
and...
3) it helps relations with your regular sidekick if you do some of their mission on occasion.
don't get me wrong, I know that the rewards for Ex'ing down aren't the greatest, but it IS interesting, and DOES have its uses. Personally, I tend to play fairly fast and loose most of the time. This gets me regularly killed. But thats ok, cause there is always Ex'ing. I see this as a chance to go and chill with some lowbie friends who i would not see as much of otherwise, and that's ok by me.
It's late and I don't want to go back and check the dev digest, but haven't they said the primary purpose of exemplaring was simply to let you play with your lower-level friends? I don't recall them ever intending it as a substitute for "normal" play, but many people in this thread seem to think the devs failed in implementation of something they never intended to implement in the first place.
I like it because it gets me out of debt much quicker, and puts me back where I was before I got RSK'd. I can also do this with practically NO RISK to myself.
In a fight that is getting particularly bad? Click RSK off and nothing can touch you - plus you might save some lives in the process.
Nearly all of you are missing the entire point of exemplaring completely.
The point of exemplaring is not to provide any type of incentive to exemplar...
The point of exemplaring is to enable you to group with your friends once you outlevel them for whatever reason, and play the game at THIER pace while not exposing them to the higher-end content prematurely...
Example:<ul type="square">[*] My friends and i buy CoH and start playing together.[*] I am a powergamer and hit level one-billion in 2 weeks.[*] My friends suck, and only hit level 5 after 2 weeks.[/list]BEFORE EXEMPLARING
My friends and i want to group together:<ul type="square">[*] I Sidekick my friends, and for the next two weeks we have a great time fighting level one-billion mobs, while they advance to level 10.[*] For the next year, i sidekick my friends whenver they play, and the only content they see are the end-game level one-billion mobs.[*] Game gets boring for them, they quit.[*] I am alone and die with my 20 cats.[/list]AFTER EXEMPLARING
My friends and i want to group together:<ul type="square">[*] I get exemplared by my friends, and fight in thier missions.[*] I am able to offer my experiance in completing these missions before[*] Thier exposure to game elements progresses in a normal fashion, and they do not get too exposed to only one type of fight for too long (result of extended side-kicking)[*] Supposedly, i wont care that i am doing these lower-level missions all over again because i am having fun with my friends, and as a result, we all end up playing longer and having fun longer because my friends wont suffer burnout faster.[/list]
What would happen in the long run if all these "INCENTIVES" to exemplar are included would be:
<ul type="square">[*] 90% of high-end gamers would exemplar ONLY to level faster than normal, or gain much more influence than normal (for whatever reason)[*] Exploitation of exemplaring leading to massively increased influence generation server-wide (influence isnt worthless, it gates high-end SOs for the most part untill level 30-35)[*] Exploitation of exemplaring strictly to bypass the debt-system completely (again, debt is a content-gater designed to slow progression. Without this, everyone would be level on-billion in a week, then complain that there isnt any high-end content because they burned through it too fast)[*] Exploitation of exemplaring by using it to farm low-level enhancements. (sound worthless? thats what the entire low-level experiance will end up being if the normal enhancement progression were to be nullified by high-end people tossing out the zillions of unneeded enhancements to thier low-level partners)[*] Exploitation of Inspirations - High-levels dropping off thier 50% Inspirations to thier entire low-level party knowing that they will just load up on more during the course of thier fight. (assuming Inspiration-Levels are tied to their 'true-level' and not thier exemplared level)[/list]
these are reasons i can think of off the top of my head.
The true purpose of exemplaring IS NOT to provide any short-cuts whatsoever to any part of the Experiance/Levelling/Debt/Influence/Inspiration/Enhancement system.
It is to increase that ability of friends to group and play the game together regardless of the level differences, and to mitigate the overall exposure of high-end game content to the majority of players that dont blow through 10 levels a weekend...
If you get a full level of debt (9 bulbs), and then exemplar, you will make progress indirectly. When the debt is gone, you will need like 1 exp to level.
This whole clearing of debt is fine, the thing is it only works if you got debt to clear!!!!
Not all people die constantly from sucky gameplay, but actually manage to die only a few times over long periods of time.
Giving influence instead, hmmmm tbh. we all know how bad lvl 30+ people need influence so yea great idea.
The only thing it's good for is getting your TF badges (when thats fixed) and mission badges you didn't get early on.
Ohh and offcourse to hang with your lower lvl. buddies and have fun.
As for making it worth it xp/debt removal/influence... no its not worth it. Unless your one of those players with constant debt that can't do a gameplay session without dying a few times.
Is there anyword as to when/if we are going to be able to just do level setting and do those mission we missed. RSK solves none of the issues that the new badge content introduced.
Mainly if you are going to introduce a lot of midgame content there's no clean and systematic way of getting at it as a high level character without making yet another damn alt.
Sharing the newbie experience with lower level characters is just not that fun they don't know how to play the game at an expert level. Nor are you going to teach them how to play effectively in an evening session. And access to the "content of intrest" is sporatic at best.
There's a reason higher levels preffer to group with higher level characters they know how to do the right things and display the right behaviors.
And if you want a comic book precident there's good source material for that too because superheroes are as powerful or as weak as needed depending on the whims of the writer.
There is ONE good thing about exemplering.....
the joys of being level 34, and begging level 8's in perez to let you AFK at the gate to work off debt.... =)
Power undebbtors!
~Draco
If you don't like Exemplaring, it's not required, so you don't have to do it.
IMHO, I think the real complaint for many, whether or not they admit it, is that they're not able to take their character back to a lower level with their current level powerset fully intact and farm lower level, lower risk mobs for full XP to level themselves from.
I mean, if you had a choice of going against level 40 mobs, or level 10 mobs, with your full powerset fully enhanced getting full XP, what would you choose?
My only beef with exemplering, and it's big enough that it prevents me from exemplering at all, is the mob running away thing especially since I'm a scrapper. I'm more a nuisance than a help to the lowbies I'm trying to help since one hit and I make them scatter. Very fatal flaw.
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There is ONE good thing about exemplering.....
the joys of being level 34, and begging level 8's in perez to let you AFK at the gate to work off debt.... =)
Power undebbtors!
~Draco
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HA! Never thought of that. You've just invented "Reverse Power Leveling" or "Power Debt Reducing". Are we going to start seeing broadcasting now, "Hey level 42 blaster here, could some low-level here please PDR me?" 
Dwimble
I don't belive Exemplar is that bad, it has its purpose. It isn't there to get experiance, it is to hang out woth a friends lower chaarcter (and allow them tos till get xp) You get some debt paied off. If you don't have debt and don't need Influence, then don't exemplar.
I think it is a good way to hang out with your friends who just started the game. They don't want to be side kicked yet, cause they are new tot he game and want to see the low lvl badies. After a while of playing, if they have had enough of the low lvl badies, then sure make them your side kick and show them the realy bad badies so they want to lvl to get ot them.
It has its purpose, it is just up to you if you use it or not. Persoanly i wouldn't mind at least 1 xp per kill, but i would like to see that even going solo. I would like to see at least 1 xp and influence being dished out, even if they are 10 lvls down, they may not be THAT experianceing, but every battle teaches you soemtihng new... even easy ones.
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My only beef with exemplering, and it's big enough that it prevents me from exemplering at all, is the mob running away thing especially since I'm a scrapper. I'm more a nuisance than a help to the lowbies I'm trying to help since one hit and I make them scatter. Very fatal flaw.
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yeah, this tends to be a little not cool. mind you, i think the concept was kinda nifty. wee lil weak hellions see big bad lvl34 Fallen Praetor coming to GET them, sure they scatter. it makes sense. unfortunately it is crap for gameplay, which is why they are fixing it. I think it had something to do with the "runner" code being linked to security level, which doesn't go down when you are EXed, though I'm not sure about that.
Yeah, that's why agro should be based on COMBAT LEVEL not security level. There is the reverse problem with regular SKing, which can be equally annoying. Ever been a 10th level hero SKed to a 35th level hero running through Perez? EVERYTHING attacks and chases you even though they can only hit you 5% of the time for wimp damage. *sigh* Few things more annoying than 20 clocks all shooting at you even if they can't hurt you.
Dwimble
Honestly, people complain about Exemplar, yet before CU2, these were some of (not these current folk, mind you) the same people complaining that SideKicking anyone under Level 20 was pointless, because they couldn't survive in the higher level zones, and so it was Side-Kick Power Levelling (to some extent this is still the case. when i'm sidekicked with my Level 43 Friend, and he's taking on things that are purple to me... i'm not exactly much help.)
Now they've created a way that he can stop with his Level 43 Character, and come help me clear a few missions... and then go right back to playing at Level 43, no big deal. and people complain that "Oh, the risk doesn't justify the reward"... sure it's a lot of risk. but for some of us, the risk *is* the reward. Playing with your friends *is* the reward. actually being challenged to survive in the game again *is* the reward.
At Level 32, my Spines/Invuln Scrapper wanders around all but the deep-south area of Brickstown without fear. I can take on mobs up to +5 my level. I've got some screenshots of me with over 50 +4's (Bosses and LT's included.).
Or, I can SK down to a lower level friend, and *really* feel challenged.
to me, the Risk is the Reward. You work debt off so fast in EX that dying isn't a big issue. and most importantly, and this is the kicker:
Why would you let yourself die when you're Exemplared?
That's just.. well. Poor Playing. Hello? /unexemplar. Click the button. Anything, and *pop* you're back to normal. you're not going to die. whatever you're fighting is obviously lower than you. you're going to squish it with your finger. then you just re-ex. *very few things* in the game Pre 35 can just "One shot you" in a team. and when they do, on occasion, again, your debt workoff is so fast, it's *really* not that bad.
But i've never died while EX'd. i just don't get that.
Edit: I was looking back at some of the posts I missed, and an argument was that "You can't make XP as fast because you're not gaining a single point of XP , EX'd"
This is True, However, you have to factor in a few key things:
Let's say I've died a few times today with my 32 Blaster. I've got say.. 100K Debt.
If i kill a group of yellows, let's say I get 200xp total for each. let's imagine i'm constantly finding groups of 10. so each one is 100 xp and 100 debt. for a total of 1K Exp and 1K Debt. I need 300K to level. I will have to kill 100 groups of mobs, to earn 100K of influence, and clear my debt. or 100 X 10 = 1000 Mobs. At a timed rate (according to hero planner) of about 2K/Minute, i could average out around an hour of playing, and clear my debt, assuming I don't die again, which obviously was what got me the 100K debt in the first place.
I will have literally in that hour, gained only 100K Exp.
If I RSK to someone, I have a "backup" Death Prevention Plan to UN-Ex at any time. Meaning it's unlikely I'll die again.
I get the same 200XP as Debt Reduction (i don't know about you, but that's what I get.) I can kill the same-con groups of 10. However, because I have a friend with me, because I am killing things much lower level, and because we can kill them faster, I am getting around 4K/minute reduction... and at 200XP/pop, i only need to kill *50* groups of mobs, or 500 mobs instead of 1 thousand. and i can kill that half the mobs in half the time now, because i have a friend with me helping me kill. So now, it only takes me 20 minutes or so (give or take) to work off the debt (in the only real debt-reduction experiment i tried, it was much faster. in truth more like 15K/minute.) and now, with the other 40 minutes, i can work debt free, un-ex'd, in the same space, and now making 200xp/pop instead of 100, i can make 160K XP in the same time. Wait. that means i worked off my debt in half the time, which gave me twice the time to gain xp...which means i gained nearly DOUBLE the xp.
Yup. Exemplar sure sucks. No fear of death, because you can Un-Exemplar at will.. you work off your debt twice as fast, leaving you on par with gaining exp normally (at worst, because you could work off your debt in theoretically the same amount of time you're actually working it off. the math averages out very close to the same.) and at best, you could make up to double your xp, once you're done working off the debt. Hmm.
Why don't you just convince the Devs to make you Level 55, that way, you'll never have a reason to actually PLAY the game? -To The "Oh No I've Been Nerfed" Folks.
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There is ONE good thing about exemplering.....
the joys of being level 34, and begging level 8's in perez to let you AFK at the gate to work off debt.... =)
Power undebbtors!
~Draco
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HA! Never thought of that. You've just invented "Reverse Power Leveling" or "Power Debt Reducing". Are we going to start seeing broadcasting now, "Hey level 42 blaster here, could some low-level here please PDR me?"
Dwimble
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It doesn't work that way... Exemplaring doesn't have the same issue as Sidekicking, when you get too far away you don't automatically return to your level, but it uses the same radius for debt clearing.. if you aren't close to the person you are exemplar to, you get nothing.
Works the same way for all those "Defeat XX" mobs badges, you don't get credit for the kill unless you are close to the person who defeats it. That I can prove because a group of friends and I had not played since badges came out, then we all did the Synapse TF.. on one mission, one guy needed to afk, so we did the mission with him standing inside (to get exp) but waiting at the entrance. Near the end, we all got the Gearsmasher badge (for defeating clockwork gears that spawn after you defeat a clock boss) at the same time, except him because he hadn't gotten credit for all the gears we'd gotten in the one mission he stayed at the door afk.
Exemplar is like the chat system, a social tool. Dont like it....dont use it
The problem is that the tool has so many other possable uses, do TF's you missed, do story arcs you missed, and similar stuff like that. It could be expanded a lot, but as it is now just think of it like the chat box...nice to have there to interact with others but no benefit to your hero.
I just Dont like th choice i have to make. I have to make the choice weather or not i want to have fun and play with my friends or Have fun and gain the next levle. Becuase I cant do both, your puting me in a postion where i have to say no beucase I would Like to progress my hero.
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I just Dont like th choice i have to make. I have to make the choice weather or not i want to have fun and play with my friends or Have fun and gain the next levle. Becuase I cant do both, your puting me in a postion where i have to say no beucase I would Like to progress my hero.
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At least you *have* a choice. Before update 2, there was no exemplaring. Are you honestly saying the Devs have given you too many options?
Exemplaring absolutely *rocks*. It's my favourite feature of the whole patch. It's challenging, useful and helps me get rid of debt faster.
When exemplared down to a lower level, I'm significantly better at staying alive than I was when I really was of that level. I have more slots (albeit powered down) and a much bigger inspiration tray. Moreover, I've learned how to play better since then.
Also, at level 10, I didn't have a button to press and gain 20 extra experience levels if things got hairy.
I'll say this, though. Dying while exemplared must truly suck. If I'm ever daft enough to let it happen, I'll let you know what it feels like...
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If you have no debt, the real level XP is turned into Influence.
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Yesternight i did exemplar a friend, i got only 20 - 40 influence per kill. My character was lvl 26 and the enemies where white while exemplar. I am not sure but i am feeling the influense is being calculated on my exemplar (combat) level and not my xp level.
An issue I think few devs if any have bothered mentioning is the current setup of the badge award system for doing missions in relation to being forced to exemplar and back tracking those missions you may have missed.
The seemingly random award of badges may be set up for specific missions in reality, but many players don't know what all those missions are. That means that if they might have a friend who missed out and wants to help, there's a good chance they'll complete the mission before realizing there's a badge involved.
I feel in the aspect of finding missing badges, exemplaring fails in its function.
My friends and I love exemplaring. Last night, my 38 Tanker buddy, who had 38000 debt last night joined my scrapper on a level 25 outdoor mission with a TON of mobs. We got rid of all his debt in that 1 mission. He was losing debt at a rate of 200 xp per mob, which went really fast as both of us were working hard to clear large groups of mobs. There was almost no danger of us getting defeated. I'd have to see some hard numbers to be sure, but I don't think a level 38 soloing could get rid of 38K debt in 1 mission, taking around 45 minutes to complete. Looking at the big picture, getting rid of debt status faster will allow my buddy to accumulate full xp on his missions, which will ultimately allow him to level faster. I agree the downside of working off his debt t as an Exemplar means no INF or ENH drops, but seeing how fast the debt drops (and admit it, who LIKES Being in debt for so long) I think the pros outway the cons. AND, we got too hang out together, which is at least fun for us.
-Special K
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I'd have to see some hard numbers to be sure, but I don't think a level 38 soloing could get rid of 38K debt in 1 mission, taking around 45 minutes to complete.
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Well, here's the deal.
Whatever the numbers add up to, it's *easier* to bash a mob while exemplared than it is while you're at your full level. If I have the choice of, say, going up against a white Nemesis for 50 xp and 50 debt paid off, fighting at my current level, or going up against a white Skull for 100 debt paid off, fighting as an exemplar, I'll pick the Skull every time.
Why is it easier? Because you have all your slots, and though they're powered down, they are still more than your L10 self had. And there's also that little matter of the bigger Inspiration tray.
If I have debt these days, I'd much rather get rid of it by exemplaring, because getting rid of it by adventuring at my current level is just a waste of hard-earned XP.
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Some upcoming fixes:
1. You will be able to do old TFs by exemplaring.
2. Bad will not run away from exemplars.
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Awsome news, thanks poz.
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I agree that exemplars need to retain their full powerset.
If they don't, that's just plain retarded, because they don't get experience either.
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Ahhh but they already *DO* retain their full Powerset.
You just don't have any specific powers you picked up BEYOND the level you're exemplared to
Also, you are still at an advantage even if you're exemplared to say a lvl 12. All your attacks are slotted nicely, altho your SOs may behave like Trainings. In other words, you keep your slots. So if you attacks all have 6 slots, they still have 6 slots at lvl 12, altho your SOs may behave like Trainings.
Plus, ever tried working off 20K debt being exemplared? took me all of 15 or 20 mins, that's it. Debt flies off you when exemplared.
There's also a 2nd use for exemplaring, well for me anyway. I team with my regular duo friend all the time we're on. When she uses her alts and gets a new power and wants to check it out, we go to a relatively high-level place (ie, RED ZONES). Since I'm on my main, she exemplars me so she gets xps while testing her new power out on mobs.
If at any time it seems like she's in trouble, I un-exemplar - instantly turning the mobs from reds to greys - and blast the heck out of them
It works the other way too.. ie I exemplar her if I am on a lowbie alt and asks her to accompany me to test out a new power if she's on with her main.