Why must Exemplar-ing suck?
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2004-10-02 18:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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In reality, we have limited time to play, we like our cool powers, and much as though we like hunting with lowbie friends we still want to gain access to more cool powers.
That's why we play, remember?
Cool powers + Cool capes + Cool effects + new content + hunt with friends = desire to play.
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Like it or not, people want XP... and if you are going to strip them off their hard-earned cool powers and new content you'd better give them a very good incentive to give it all up.
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Hey. HEY!!! The "very good incentive" is to game with players you want to, reguardless of level. If you don't like it, DON'T DO IT. There is NO gun to anyone's head forcing anyone to use it.
Now STHU and game.
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1) Are you sure that you are getting the benefits of your slots while exemplaring? Mind you, my time doing this was short, but the amount of damage I was putting out being exemplared down to 18 seemed to be as if I did not have anything in the slots, not just 'cut down' to dual origin-level.
2) You get 0 influence or enhancements (even training ones at the level you are going down to) until you are out of debt, then you get influence, never enhancements. Whether this is double the xp you would gain, or not, I do not know. Even if it is double - Is 400xp and therefore 800 influence in the end more than 200 xp, 200 debt reduction, 650 influence, and a training enhancement per 3 mobs that sells at minimum for 1000 influence equal? That's very, very debatable and the point people are trying to make in this discussion.
My point is if influence is gained along with the debt reduction, then exemplaring becomes worth the time to do. Yes, I do realize the idea is to help low characters through their missions, but there has to be incentive to do it, otherwise it is more advantageous for both parties to sidekick and skip the low missions altogether, because both gain enhancements, the sidekick's powers are still modified by their slot allocation, and both gain influence.
With this change, I would feel better about risking getting whacked and taking 13k more in debt, since I have less versatility and alpha strike power than I do against an equivalent level of mob non-exemplared.
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I'm not 100% posative that you get the benefit of your enhancements however i was hunting with a level 30 and i exemplared him down to my level of 21. So we both had the same powersets and were at the same level. I had a bunch of damage DOs in my powers and he had even more SOs. When exemplared he was still doing CONSIDERABLY more damage then i was with the exact same powers. I didnt ask how many slots he had because it didnt seem to be relevent, if it DID cut down his slots to my level we would be about even and it wasnt even close.
I dont think influence is relevent to this issue, The benefit is that if you have debt, you are effectively 'advancing' at the same rate by getting 100% debt reduction (despite the fact that you are not actually advancing). This is the sole benefit of RSK aside from the fact that you can hunt with an whole group thats lower then you. Once you can do TF as well, the system is pretty much complete for what they intended it to do. It is NOT an alternate way to hunt like regular SK is. Its a specialty feature used to A) Work off debt and B) hunt at a lower level for whatever reason. All penalties suffered for doing RSK are inherent in the concept of RSK.
It works much like the concept of sidekicking, you get an increase in power but it doesnt give you the powers/slots/skill that would otherwise come with that level.
SK = increased risk for increased reward
RSK = decreased risk for a decreased reward
Im talking about best case scenario here, if your in more risk when rsk then you are when normally hunting, your doing something wrong. Its a situational feature, as intended.
If you just want influence, go hunt regularly
I tried Exemplaring for the first time last night. It was odd to go back to being lvl 2, but that didn't bother me a whole lot. What bothered me was the fact that EVERY mob we fought ran. I would leap in, use one of my extremely slowly recharging attacks, and they'd all scatter. I like the idea, but fix this bug.
Read about half the thread so far, watching it go round and round and round ...
Anyway, just thought I'd throw in. Tried exemplaring with pals, it sucked, won't do it again unless there's absolutely no other way to team. An SG member tried it, he had the same experience. RSK bad, SK good.
For me, the "you are better than any other level 10 out there" argument falls sorta flat when you add in the learning curve. Only by playing for a few hours am I going to be able to recondition my reflexes to a character with half her powers gone. Ahh! I've been hit! I'll Fly away! Oh wait, Fly is greyed out. Dead. Good thing debt melts away so fast when Exemplaring! Oh wait, it doesn't actually get paid off that fast. Then I have to readjust all over again when I return to my "real" level. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it is just another frustration with RSKing.
Seems to me like the cons of RSKing far outweigh the pros as things stand now. Sure, some people like it. Great. Just seems like the RSK target demographic is a "niche" market and it would be so easy to make 90% of people like RSKing rather than 5%.
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RSK should allow 2 things.
1) Completion of old missions (TFs, Trials, and Normals).
2) A way to work off debt and gain influence.
Nothing else.
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Exactly.
I stand corrected, someone actually understands the entire point of exemplaring.
What about the oh-so-vaunted #3?
3) Playing with lower level friends.
It's the devs that decided what Exemplar-ing should be, not us. All we asked for is #3, but we assumed that there would be a similar benefit to Exemplaring as there is to Sidekicking.
It just ain't so.
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Personally I am done doing exemplaring until they fix the mob run bug. I can't stand getting to a mission and having everything run. You know, like somebody forgot to tell the mob that you aren't lvl 42 anymore?
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EXACTLY!
Here's the rub...
Reducing my power set is just silly.
I was passing through steel the other day and someone was yelling that they had trouble with a biss and needed help. I figure, sure, I was just on my way to do a mission and could spare a few minutes to help a soul in need.
So I join up and exemplar down 20 levels to the level of the group forming.
So we go in and we fight.
1) I cannot count on a key power in my lineup (Instant Healing) nor can I count on my resiliance to keep me unstunned.
2)Mobs run from me like crazy and the party quite literally spends 5 to 8 minutes watching mobs run out of range and come back to be hit once and run away again.
3) Last time I checked, when Captain America or Batman stopped off to help Bucky or Robin in a pinch, they did not suddenly turn into super wusses incapable of beating up an 8th grader
Now, I do not expect to be superman or anything when I exemplar down, but I DID expect to retain my powers, if not at their peak efficency, and I DID DID DID DID expect to be able to hit an orange.
In the end they were better off without me and choosing a scrapper who A) was in tune what what powers they had at that level and not suprised at their sudden change and B) did not nake mobs run non-stop
Unlike some, I do not carry a ton of debt around. So I gained no exp.
I gaine dinfluence at teh rate a level 15 or whatever it was gained exp. YAY I got as much from the entire mission as killing ONE (1) mob my level. That'll surely bring me back for more.
YAY! It was such a proud day for me.
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What about the oh-so-vaunted #3?
3) Playing with lower level friends.
It's the devs that decided what Exemplar-ing should be, not us. All we asked for is #3, but we assumed that there would be a similar benefit to Exemplaring as there is to Sidekicking.
It just ain't so.
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Does this LOOK like a Burger King to you? You don't get everything YOUR way.
You assumed you'd get everything handed to you on a silver platter. You assumed that if you whined about something enough, you'd get something that would be all benefit, with no downside.
It doesn't work that way. The devs never said it would. They never promised it. If you don't like it, don't use it. But for crying out loud you whiney maggots need to STHU about it.
It's a dead parrot!
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What about the oh-so-vaunted #3?
3) Playing with lower level friends.
It's the devs that decided what Exemplar-ing should be, not us. All we asked for is #3, but we assumed that there would be a similar benefit to Exemplaring as there is to Sidekicking.
It just ain't so.
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Does this LOOK like a Burger King to you? You don't get everything YOUR way.
You assumed you'd get everything handed to you on a silver platter. You assumed that if you whined about something enough, you'd get something that would be all benefit, with no downside.
It doesn't work that way. The devs never said it would. They never promised it. If you don't like it, don't use it. But for crying out loud you whiney maggots need to STHU about it.
It's a dead parrot!
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*cough*Troll!*cough*
Right, so anyways, a bit of constructive complaining. Exemplaring seriously needs to be reevaluated. I don't think it's even working the way it's supposed to work, and that's pretty crappy as it is. The reason I say this is because:
1> You do not get 100% debt payback. It's more like 90%, and the other 10% is lost somewhere in subspace.In my experiences, Duoing as both SK and RSK, the totals on even level minions never come close. Generally, I'll get like 80xp split 40/40 without RSKing on my level 27 character. And when I RSK? 57 debt repay.
2> What about my Influence? Not only am I getting less total experience when I RSK, but What I would normally be earning in Influence also disappears. We should either be recieving The debt repayment PLUS the influence, or the influence should go TOWARD debt repayment. This isn't even to mention the so-called reward that you get after you get out of debt. 100% Influence? Well, basically the XP is converted to Influence. But the Influence you normally earn doesnt seem to be added to the total. So basically, you get your normal influence ammount.
3> 2 steps back, 2 steps forward. 2 steps back, 2 steps forward. For a group of developers that are always stressing Risk vs Reward, there sure is alot of Risk for absolutely no actual reward. It's odd that you can Repay debt, but not actually earn XP....and meanwhile....you can add to your debt as well. So Start at 5k debt, earn back 3k more, die, get 2k debt, and guess what? Your back at 4k debt. Never ending loop of uselessness. Wonder what Gaffer would say about this. He had mentioned his dislike of anything that discouraged you from doing something. This certainly discourages you from using the system.
4> Guys? Enhancements aren't slotted the same way at level 14 as they are at level 40. Targetting Drone, Hasten, and Stamina all dramatically effect the way you slot your powers. Therefor, the so called advantage that players get for having extra slots that they wouldn't normally have? That is nullified by the fact that you have the wrong enhancements slotted for the situation. 6 enhancements slotted as damage is all well and good. But if I lost stamina, then I am suddenly low on Endurance, because I can't replace those damage enhancements with endurance reductions.
Overall, I like the system. I can deal with the loss of powers and what not. But there are some serious logic flaws that need to be addresed before the system meets it's goals properly. The ONLY thing the system is good for is playing with low level friends. And soon to make up missed Missions and whatnot. But it could be a viable tool for getting out of debt and/or making influence, if it worked properly. As it is, it gimps any kind of progress you would've regularly made at your normal level.
I think a more rigorous explanation of terms might clarify the point I'm making:
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Let there be a level L character with X experience points, requiring N to next level.
We define progress P to be the delta-X between t1 and t2, where P = X(t2) - X(t1) and t2 > t1
We define rate R to be the R divided by t2 - t1, where R = P / t2 - t2 = X(t2) - X(t1) / t2 - t1 and t2 > t1
The character levels when X >= N
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Thus, if I exemplar and pay off 10 billion debt, according to the definition above, I have not may any progress per se, because X(t2) - X(t1) is still exactly zero.
My rate is also exactly zero, because 0 divided by anything is still zero.
However, my potential rate in the future may be higher, but that is not the definition of progress in any sense of the above. All the time spent exemplaring actually has made no change in either variables P or R which is all that matters for leveling.
All this talk of if debt helps or not while EX'ed is making my head hurt.
I don't think the option of RSK is intended or needs to have a equal reward for equal risk. It is simply a voluntary means of allowing you to lower your level to play with friends, doing their missions (not yours with them SK'ed) or allow access to past TF's (coming soon) and badges. So even if you got absolutley nothing from RSK, no debt decrease, no influence, people would still do it. Just like being able to switch between costumes really has no tangible reward or risk other than thinking you're so cool because you now have your secret identity "look" but it has no impact on the game whatsoever.
If you are simply looking for personal gain (yours or your friends) then RSK just may not be an option.
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I think a more rigorous explanation of terms might clarify the point I'm making:
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Let there be a level L character with X experience points, requiring N to next level.
We define progress P to be the delta-X between t1 and t2, where P = X(t2) - X(t1) and t2 > t1
We define rate R to be the R divided by t2 - t1, where R = P / t2 - t2 = X(t2) - X(t1) / t2 - t1 and t2 > t1
The character levels when X >= N
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Thus, if I exemplar and pay off 10 billion debt, according to the definition above, I have not may any progress per se, because X(t2) - X(t1) is still exactly zero.
My rate is also exactly zero, because 0 divided by anything is still zero.
However, my potential rate in the future may be higher, but that is not the definition of progress in any sense of the above. All the time spent exemplaring actually has made no change in either variables P or R which is all that matters for leveling.
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EXCEPT!
If you have X experience, Y debt, and the next level is N, you are N-X + min(Y,N-X) away from level. And any time spent reducing Y to 0 is progress.
The only question is: at what level Li, for i=1 to 50, do you kill a white minion (or your preferred mix of color and M/L/B) most quickly? That is your optimum level. Get exemplared down or sidekicked up as needed.
You just quoted a post from over 2 years ago concerning a system that has changed since then.
Just pointing that out.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
27 months plus a week.
Thats one heck of a necropost there.
Grats and IBTL
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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You just quoted a post from over 2 years ago concerning a system that has changed since then.
Just pointing that out.
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Really? What changed about exemplaring between then and now? No XP, Debt at 2x til zero, then Inf. That all I ever remember since Exing became a thing.
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You just quoted a post from over 2 years ago concerning a system that has changed since then.
Just pointing that out.
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He did it on purpose, if you look at his other thread about necroposting. Hence why I reported his thread, and expect this to get locked soon. +1
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You just quoted a post from over 2 years ago concerning a system that has changed since then.
Just pointing that out.
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He did it on purpose, if you look at his other thread about necroposting. Hence why I reported his thread, and expect this to get locked soon. +1
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Narc.
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He did it on purpose, if you look at his other thread about necroposting. Hence why I reported his thread, and expect this to get locked soon. +1
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Oh, I know. Hence my unenthusiastic reply to his post.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
teh +1
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You just quoted a post from over 2 years ago concerning a system that has changed since then.
Just pointing that out.
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NO, really, Smashmouth. What changed about exemplaring between then and now?
IBTL+1
When there is no room left in hell... the dead threads shall walk the earth.
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edit: Furthermore, theres actually less risk then hunting normally. Sure you get debt as normal but you also get xp as normal. The game is supposed to get harder with advanced levels so your hunting at an easier level, and also while it lowers your powerset to what you had at that level(not a penalty, thats what you would have had anyway) it doesnt take away slots. It reduces them in power but its still the equivelent of having 6 SOs at whatever level you would have been even if you couldnt use SOs or didnt have that many slots at that point.
Exemplaring is fine how it is
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1) Are you sure that you are getting the benefits of your slots while exemplaring? Mind you, my time doing this was short, but the amount of damage I was putting out being exemplared down to 18 seemed to be as if I did not have anything in the slots, not just 'cut down' to dual origin-level.
2) You get 0 influence or enhancements (even training ones at the level you are going down to) until you are out of debt, then you get influence, never enhancements. Whether this is double the xp you would gain, or not, I do not know. Even if it is double - Is 400xp and therefore 800 influence in the end more than 200 xp, 200 debt reduction, 650 influence, and a training enhancement per 3 mobs that sells at minimum for 1000 influence equal? That's very, very debatable and the point people are trying to make in this discussion.
My point is if influence is gained along with the debt reduction, then exemplaring becomes worth the time to do. Yes, I do realize the idea is to help low characters through their missions, but there has to be incentive to do it, otherwise it is more advantageous for both parties to sidekick and skip the low missions altogether, because both gain enhancements, the sidekick's powers are still modified by their slot allocation, and both gain influence.
With this change, I would feel better about risking getting whacked and taking 13k more in debt, since I have less versatility and alpha strike power than I do against an equivalent level of mob non-exemplared.