Why must Exemplar-ing suck?
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2004-10-02 18:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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because none of the exp from anything will ever go towards your next level. Ever. Debt or not.
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none of the XP you earn normally that pays off debt will go to your next level either.So what exactly is your point?
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I'm talking while exemplar'd.
And replying to the quoted poster, which is falsely stating 'being in debt while exemplar'd means you ADVANCE like normal' so he gets defeated while exemplar'd on purpose, which is very wrong and pointless, all you do is pay off debt, you don't advance.
Hello,
i think working off debt while exemplared works like this:
(
xp; 
debt)
Starting situation
Half worked off debt in "normal" mode
Half worked off debt while exemplared
The point is: you never advance while exemplared, you only work off debt.
Great illustration, Fire...
Getting defeated on purpose while exemplared is just, if you'll pardon me, dumb.
Once the debt is payed off, you'll get influence instead!
I have nothing to add to the discussion except to demand that, from here on out, people must make bar charts using smileys.
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But the thing is, it's not. I know that on paper exemplaring looks rather useless since you're not earning xp, but *in practice* I have found over and over again that in a given period of time - say, four hours - I can clear my debt and then un-exemplar and start earning real XP and end the four hours with MORE TOTAL XP than if I'd stayed at my level and ground out the 50/50 split.
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Clearly you havn't actually tried the system. The darkened "debt" portion of the experience bar goes backwards, not forward like it would normally. You get NO experience while exemplared. Furthermore, despite that you work of debt at 100%, you still only work off about as much as you would fighting stuff at your level. I've done it several times. Just an example, I fight a white con mob unexemplared and I rake in 100 exp, work off 100 debt and gain 3000 influence and a single origin enh that I can sell for even more influence. Then I exemplar, fight a white con mob I work off 100 debt. That's it, no exp, no influence, no enh's. Um, excuse me, shouldn't I be working off 200 debt? What's wrong here? Hell, not sure, but I dont think you even get inspirations for kills while exemplar'd, as a result making the risk even higher.
Speaking of risk, the chances of you dying vs a white con mob while exemplared is the same, maybe even more since you're stripped of your powers, yet you get MORE debt at your unexemplar'd level. You get no reward. So why does Statesman keep saying "Risk = Reward" when this system obviously goes against what he says. I really dont understand the reason behind it. And then you're going to say "well you get to play with your friends lower than you, that's the reward!' Guess what? That's not enough. I dont think your progression should ever completely STOP as long as you're fighting stuff that challenges you. With this system, it does. It comes to a screeching halt.
IMHO, this should be reconsidered in someway. Either much greater reduced exp gain. At least so you're still progressing while doing it, instead of coming to a complete halt. Or much greater improved debt removal and/or influence gain. Or keeping your power (at a scaled power of course), so you're not so much at risk.
It was a good idea on paper, but it doesn't quite work as well.
hey if I'm wrong whatev, I'm wrong. I'm man enough to admit fault, for all these post that read like they're getting a temper over this.
At 36 my bar moves so slow my eyes may be deceiving me. I'm stating an opinion based on theory. Take the venom elsewhere, these are only words and this is only a game.
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hey if I'm wrong whatev, I'm wrong. I'm man enough to admit fault, for all these post that read like they're getting a temper over this.
At 36 my bar moves so slow my eyes may be deceiving me. I'm stating an opinion based on theory. Take the venom elsewhere, these are only words and this is only a game.
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hover your mouse over the bar or open your ID, it'll be a more accurate representation
The problem with Exemplaring is that it does not provide any benefit over normal experience earnings, in fact, it only adds restrictions.
So long as you have debt, then Exemplaring is almost equally effective as normal experience gathering. You will gain the same amount of "exp" per kill, only it will be applied in different ways. With normal exp gathering, you actually make progress and can level. With exemplaring, you can never level. If you do not have debt, then Exemplaring is much less efficient than normal experience gathering. You will gain influence instead, but normal exp'ing not only gives the same amount of influence, but also gives experience.
If a white minion gives 100 experience normally, it will give 75 influence as well:
Exemplared, with debt: 100 debt removed
Exemplared, w/o debt: 100 influence
Normal, with debt: 50 experience, 50 debt, 75 influence
Normal, w/o debt: 100 experience, 75 influence
If a white boss gives 400 experience, it will give 1600 influence as well:
Exemplared, with debt: 400 debt removed
Exemplared, w/o debt: 400 influence
Normal, with debt: 200 experience, 200 debt, 1600 influence
Normal, w/o debt: 400 experience, 1600 influence
In all cases it is much better to chug through your debt w/o Exemplaring. You will:
1. Make progress and can actually level.
2. You will gain the same exp/debt removal, but gain more influence.
If you exemplar, at best, you're only losing influence. At worst you are not only slowing your rate of advancement (because you can never make progress) but you are also reducing your influence gaining because of all the lost opportunities to get it while you are in debt.
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But the thing is, it's not. I know that on paper exemplaring looks rather useless since you're not earning xp, but *in practice* I have found over and over again that in a given period of time - say, four hours - I can clear my debt and then un-exemplar and start earning real XP and end the four hours with MORE TOTAL XP than if I'd stayed at my level and ground out the 50/50 split.
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Clearly you havn't actually tried the system. The darkened "debt" portion of the experience bar goes backwards, not forward like it would normally. You get NO experience while exemplared. Furthermore, despite that you work of debt at 100%, you still only work off about as much as you would fighting stuff at your level. I've done it several times. Just an example, I fight a white con mob unexemplared and I rake in 100 exp, work off 100 debt and gain 3000 influence and a single origin enh that I can sell for even more influence. Then I exemplar, fight a white con mob I work off 100 debt. That's it, no exp, no influence, no enh's. Um, excuse me, shouldn't I be working off 200 debt? What's wrong here? Hell, not sure, but I dont think you even get inspirations for kills while exemplar'd, as a result making the risk even higher.
Speaking of risk, the chances of you dying vs a white con mob while exemplared is the same, maybe even more since you're stripped of your powers, yet you get MORE debt at your unexemplar'd level. You get no reward. So why does Statesman keep saying "Risk = Reward" when this system obviously goes against what he says. I really dont understand the reason behind it. And then you're going to say "well you get to play with your friends lower than you, that's the reward!' Guess what? That's not enough. I dont think your progression should ever completely STOP as long as you're fighting stuff that challenges you. With this system, it does. It comes to a screeching halt.
IMHO, this should be reconsidered in someway. Either much greater reduced exp gain. At least so you're still progressing while doing it, instead of coming to a complete halt. Or much greater improved debt removal and/or influence gain. Or keeping your power (at a scaled power of course), so you're not so much at risk.
It was a good idea on paper, but it doesn't quite work as well.
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Non-ex:
You kill an enemy, this enemy takes aprox 30 seconds to kill, you earn 100 exp and work off 100 debt, and make 150 influence.
Ex:
You kill an enemy, this enemy takes 15 seconds to kill, you work off 200 debt, earn 13 influence.
If out of debt, you kill an enemy that takes 15 seconds, and you earn 213 influence(as an example).
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But, my point is that, if you're exemplaring down to 20 from 40, and have no access to powers post 20(in other words your SL has been decreased in effect), why should you get debt as if you were level 40?
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1. You will be able to do old TFs by exemplaring.
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I hope this will include Trials. Especially for the ones that have really tight level ranges.
I worked off a FULL bar of level 38 debt in about 40 minutes. I like this system. You may hate it, then good for you. Thats all I need to say about it.
I'm sorry, but while exemplaring you have almost no risk. At any time you can pop out and nova blast that annoying hellion. Your team will get no experience for the encounter, but if a couple hundred hps from nowhere and ludicrous power doesn't save you, then nothing will.
A different example for why the numbers don't favor exemplaring:
I'm a level 30. I get 100 XP for killing a white-con minion.
If I exemplar to 10, I still get 100 XP for killing a white-con minion.
I currently have 5000 debt. I am 5000 XP from leveling.
Option 1: I stay 30, getting 50 XP and 50 debt for a kill. It takes me 100 minions to clear my debt, in which time I've also earned 5000 XP towards leveling.
Option 2: I exemplar. It now takes only 50 minions to clear my debt. Then I un-Ex, and it takes another 50 minions to get me 5000 XP towards leveling.
Bottom line: I don't end up any closer to leveling if I exemplar. Yet, I give up powers, can't work on my own missions, and risk L30 debt if I die again (which is likely if my power is reduced). Not worth it.
What I'm not sure about is how the math works out if I have debt extending to after my next level. Is it better to work off that next-level debt now? or to work it off after I level?
The XP/debt thing is a wash as RomSpaceKnight and others have pointed out.
I'm pretty sure the only 'advantage' to the Exemplaring system is getting to play with your lower level friends.
In a while (when it goes live) you'll also be able to go back and pick up TFs you missed.
Any negatives in the system (loss of powers, no enhancements, etc) are there to keep it from being abused.
All the Devs were looking for is a way to let higher levels play with lowers.
Why are people looking for more advantages then this?
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A different example for why the numbers don't favor exemplaring:
I'm a level 30. I get 100 XP for killing a white-con minion.
If I exemplar to 10, I still get 100 XP for killing a white-con minion.
I currently have 5000 debt. I am 5000 XP from leveling.
Option 1: I stay 30, getting 50 XP and 50 debt for a kill. It takes me 100 minions to clear my debt, in which time I've also earned 5000 XP towards leveling.
Option 2: I exemplar. It now takes only 50 minions to clear my debt. Then I un-Ex, and it takes another 50 minions to get me 5000 XP towards leveling.
Bottom line: I don't end up any closer to leveling if I exemplar. Yet, I give up powers, can't work on my own missions, and risk L30 debt if I die again (which is likely if my power is reduced). Not worth it.
What I'm not sure about is how the math works out if I have debt extending to after my next level. Is it better to work off that next-level debt now? or to work it off after I level?
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Enemis at lower levels die faster....
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My friends will advance just as fast, or faster if they're Sidekicked to me.
How is that selfish?
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Maybe they want to do their story arcs and/or get their couple of mission badges also while gettiung XP?
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Also, if you have 2 low-level friends, you can only sk one. However, they can reverse sk you and all 3 are at or near the same level.
Wow! At least someone gets the picture. Personally, I love the Exemplar system. Sure, it'd be nice if it had more benefits for the exemplar, but the point of the system is to let you play on an even field with younger friends who need help with *their* storyarcs, TFs, and such. For that, it works wonderfully, and it is for that reason I use and like the system. Folks are absolutely correct - it sucks for personal gain on a numerical level. That would be because the system isn't designed for that purpose. If all you care about is personal gain, don't use it! Pretty much a no-brainer to me. If you want to enjoy the game with a few friends who don't want to skip over their own storyarcs and TF opportunities, it is a perfect tool.
News flash, folks! Not everything about the game is about gaining exp/inf/levels. Some people player multi-player games for the chance to...well...play with other players. Exemplaring is merely a tool to help make this possible, and one that is sorely lacking in most other games. Kudos to CoH for making it work, even if it isn't the most beneficial in terms of material gain.
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I'm pretty sure the only 'advantage' to the Exemplaring system is getting to play with your lower level friends.
In a while (when it goes live) you'll also be able to go back and pick up TFs you missed.
Any negatives in the system (loss of powers, no enhancements, etc) are there to keep it from being abused.
All the Devs were looking for is a way to let higher levels play with lowers.
Why are people looking for more advantages then this?
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2. You do not get any enhancements while you are an exemplar.
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Problem: Enhancements are a large portion of a character's total Influence gain. The lack of enhancements makes exemplar significantly less effective for gaining influence. Was this taken into account?
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Some clarifications:
1. You get XP debt reduced at 2x your real level's debt removal rate, not your exemplar level's debt removal rate. If you have no debt, the real level XP is turned into Influence.
2. You do not get any enhancements while you are an exemplar.
Some upcoming fixes:
1. You will be able to do old TFs by exemplaring.
2. Bad will not run away from exemplars.
The code for these has been written and is on its way through QA and into a patch. Stay tuned.
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I'm not understanding the exp to debt work off conversion...
I'm level 22. When I fight an even con minion, I get 50 exp. If I have debt, I get 25 exp and 25 goes to debt. When I exemplared down to level 3 to play with a friend, fighting even con minions, I got 15 debt worked off. I thought I was supposed to get 50?
What's up?
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I'm not understanding the exp to debt work off conversion...
I'm level 22. When I fight an even con minion, I get 50 exp. If I have debt, I get 25 exp and 25 goes to debt. When I exemplared down to level 3 to play with a friend, fighting even con minions, I got 15 debt worked off. I thought I was supposed to get 50?
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Are you sure you are battling even con minions with the same number of teammates? Remember if you have a teammate, experience is shared with a team bonus factor.
When I heard about this feature, I was really excited about it.
"Now anyone could virtually play with ANYONE!"
Then I found out that you get no xp, whoopee...
The 100% debt payoff is nice, but inf gain afterwards? It racks up so much anyway in the high levels...and you're not making any progress at all... 
In a perfect world, we would all have unlimited time and the desire to lose our cool powers and hunt with lowbies again, and not care about XP or getting more cool powers.
In reality, we have limited time to play, we like our cool powers, and much as though we like hunting with lowbie friends we still want to gain access to more cool powers.
That's why we play, remember?
Cool powers + Cool capes + Cool effects + new content + hunt with friends = desire to play.
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Like it or not, people want XP... and if you are going to strip them off their hard-earned cool powers and new content you'd better give them a very good incentive to give it all up.
The exemplar thing is meant to allow you to go down to a lower level so you can do theyre missions, as well as sidekicking them so they can do yours.
Thats great, except I like to progress while I play. If 50% of the time were doing his missions, then I'm suddenly progessing half as fast. At level 38, I have influence coming out of my ears, I dont need the bonus. And get this, I like to actually STAY OUT OF DEBT. I rarely have debt anymore unless its after a trial gone horribly wrong. And seeing as I certainly don't need the inf, It kinda makes the system a big waste of time. It might be fine for a single mission to help out, but for continously doing a low friends missions? I'll never get anywhere.
Id much rather see this whole system ditched, and the user suggested flashback system introduced
ie you talk to an NPC in atlas or somewhere, and it drops your level down to what you specify until you talk to them again. But your xp/inf/debt repay all stays the same as if you were fighting stuff relative to your level, much like sidekicking. Would also seriously drop the exploits, as your stuck in that level till you see the NPC again.
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Some clarifications:
1. You get XP debt reduced at 2x your real level's debt removal rate, not your exemplar level's debt removal rate. If you have no debt, the real level XP is turned into Influence.
2. You do not get any enhancements while you are an exemplar.
Some upcoming fixes:
1. You will be able to do old TFs by exemplaring.
2. Bad will not run away from exemplars.
The code for these has been written and is on its way through QA and into a patch. Stay tuned.
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Poz, the part that you don't get enhancements or *some* of the value for enhancements you would normally get really crimps one of the "supposed" good things about Exemplaring, which is earning Influence when you need it.
It's actually a bit faster to not exemplar and earn XP too.
Still here, even after all this time!
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because none of the exp from anything will ever go towards your next level. Ever. Debt or not.
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none of the XP you earn normally that pays off debt will go to your next level either.So what exactly is your point?