First thanks for replaying to us. (Ack sounds like I am going to scream at you or something. I just want you to know that you here is very appreceated.) So now my post.
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The goal (eventually) is to make the +1,0,-1 level spread as fun at 30th level as it was at 10th level.
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And this is a great goal, I want to see this happen. But right now the current trend is in introducing status effects. At level 10 there where very few mobs with status effects, the occasional Edilon or Lost Blaster. By 40 it seems the only challenge is chain stunning or holding mobs and well that is not what many people consider to be a fun challenge.
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Ah - this is somewhat unrelated. The game is too easy at higher levels. Larger groups need to hunt higher level spawns in order to find challenge, and therefore fun.
The missions at levels 30+ contain foes -1,0,+1 to the level of the mission holder (or at least the level he was when he received the mission). Those foes are trivially easy for players at those levels. Thus, they go to street sweeping - because the fun is at fighting foes +5 levels - and consequently they receive A LOT of experience points.
The goal (eventually) is to make the +1,0,-1 level spread as fun at 30th level as it was at 10th level.
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Ah, but my question is, is the game TRULY too easy for the majority of players post 30? Or, is it just too easy for the very vocal 1% min/maxers that post on these forums? Will significantly increasing the difficulty end up making it too hard for most people?
This is not a troll or flame; I'm really curious about that. I don't have any high-level characters because I am an alt-junkie and doomed to forever have characters in the lower half of the game. But, when the day comes that I have 20 characters simultaneously reaching 35th level, I'd hate to find that the high end game had been taken over by all the players that can p0wnzers j00! 
Dwimble
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Couple that with the enormous penalty for grouping beyond the 4rth person and you just don't see large teams anymore.
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Penalty for more than 4 people? Certainly not XP wise; players get an XP bonus for having larger and larger groups. What are you referring to?
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Currently, there are no spawns anywhere that are worth tackling with a 5+ person team. Unless you are herding, which looks to me like an exploit, even 4 people is a bit too many.
That caps XP for large groups. Unless you split into two 4-person teams, your XP is only slightly larger in a 4-person team than in an 8-person team.
As a practical matter, XP is best if you have a 4 person team, and split into 2 groups of 2 in a non-hazard zone. My pre-nerf illusionist actually does best soloing in a group - forming a team and taking off on his own. Same w/ most post-32 blasters.
Hopefully, this changes come the revolution.
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I suspect that Statesman will tell you "We know that the game is too easy at higher levels, and we're working on that," as he has said in other threads. To extrapolate from his statements there, when average mob difficulty goes up, you won't see 4 man teams fighting the largest groups available any more.
I suspect the "increase mob difficulty" project is intended to address the following problems, in no particular order:
1. The insane xp/time rate of solo AOE blasters.
2. The relative ease of encounters from levels 25-40.
3. The relative uselessness of a full 8 hero team over a 4 man team (or whatever size team can effectively mow through trial zones).
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Devs originally stated long ago that they'd rather increase enemy HP than reduce damage. What is probably ultimately going to happen, based on the first step of increasing minion HP is this:
1. Devs increase minion HP
2. People complain that Tanks/Defenders/Controllers cannot solo anymore
3. Devs increase Damage for Tanks/Defenders/Controllers.
4. People complain that Blasters and Scrappers aren't as special/needed anymore
5. Devs increase Damage for Blaster and Scrapper but ONLY NON-AE powers.
6. People complain that LT, Boss, Monster and Arch Villains are too easy with the Damage Boost
7. Devs increase HP for all enemies but Minions
End result = AE Damage is going to be reduced in relation to enemy HP. It's going to take a while, but I really think the Devs are going to do this. Instead of just doing the ONE thing that needs to be adjusted and reduce AE Damage, they're going to go the long, round-about method and increase EVERYTHING BUT AE Damage in order for them to keep their word.
Either that or they should just suck it up and increase all enemy Hit Points and also increase all Non-AE power damage by the same percentage and get it over with in one shot.
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1. Devs increase minion HP
2. People complain that Tanks/Defenders/Controllers cannot solo anymore
3. Devs increase Damage for Tanks/Defenders/Controllers.
4. People complain that Blasters and Scrappers aren't as special/needed anymore
5. Devs increase Damage for Blaster and Scrapper but ONLY NON-AE powers.
6. People complain that LT, Boss, Monster and Arch Villains are too easy with the Damage Boost
7. Devs increase HP for all enemies but Minions
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Drop step (4) and (6) and (7) cease to be an issue.
Under construction
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Ah - and as for the argument that mission XP "sucks." Yes, you do reap less XP/minute if you simply travel from your contact immediately to your mission door (which tends to be player behavior). However, if you fight some spawns on the way - and finish the mission with the new XP rewards - I think you'll find that missions are much, much more competitive XP wise.
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Only time I have a problem with this statement is when at level 18 I am sent to Steel Canyone to get CoTs who are all very grey to me at 18. I got this mission 3 times at that level. There is no exp smacking small fries and no exp on the way there (at best one mob in a group will be green).
Normally I like the default X mobs missions because they let YOU determine the difficulty of the missions. If you go to a zone or a part of the zone where mobs are orange and red you get better fight and a lot more exp than someone who just fights greys and greens because they know where they are. There ARE times however when they game forces you to hunt greys in zones where everything is grey or hold onto the mission until you can get into a zone with exp mobs (i.e. until you meet hazard zone requirements). Those missions are worthless but when you are getting down on missions and contact only gives you one choice you have to do them to get to the next one which hopefully will suck less.
Speaking of which the game desperately needs more level 18-19 hunting areas. Solo there is only Skyway by Faultline, no where else has a decent supply of white-red mobs. With a group you can go deep into a hazard zone and find decent mobs, assuming you can find a group that wants to go deep into a hazard zone. This is complicated by the fact that contacts start drying up at 18 a bad combination.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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Currently, there are no spawns anywhere that are worth tackling with a 5+ person team. Unless you are herding, which looks to me like an exploit, even 4 people is a bit too many.
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The Trial Zones. These are designed for teams sizes 6 to 8 or so. Those spawns are HHHUUUGGGGEEEE - and challenging (at the low and mid levels). But many people don't take the challenge.
Again, I'm not sure what "penalty" is being allueded to.
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A well prepared group of 5-8 mows through introductory purples just as easily as it mows through even cons. Anything bigger than that is a brick wall due to the purple patch scaling upwards too sharply.
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Ah - this is somewhat unrelated. The game is too easy at higher levels. Larger groups need to hunt higher level spawns in order to find challenge, and therefore fun.
The missions at levels 30+ contain foes -1,0,+1 to the level of the mission holder (or at least the level he was when he received the mission). Those foes are trivially easy for players at those levels. Thus, they go to street sweeping - because the fun is at fighting foes +5 levels - and consequently they receive A LOT of experience points.
The goal (eventually) is to make the +1,0,-1 level spread as fun at 30th level as it was at 10th level.
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This would be a very rewarding change indeed. However if mobs are going to become X more difficult they should also give X more xp. I have always thought that mobs for the most part got pathetically easy at higher levels to compensate for the insane xp gradient that a player becomes faced with.
More challenge and more xp for the mobs we fight will be very welcome at higher levels. In essence players, at least in my SG, prefer to have a challenge over xp. (Hence jumping at the chance to go on AV missions with large groups post 40.)
However if the mobs become just as challenging as they were Pre-SOs to players then xp really needs to be adjusted to make players still feel like they are accomplishing something.
As it is now, some players still spend a week getting from one level to the next post 30. Making mobs more difficult without an xp increase would be another nail in the coffin for them.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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And this is a great goal, I want to see this happen. But right now the current trend is in introducing status effects. At level 10 there where very few mobs with status effects, the occasional Edilon or Lost Blaster. By 40 it seems the only challenge is chain stunning or holding mobs and well that is not what many people consider to be a fun challenge.
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No - the Status effects are not meant to be the way that things get "harder" in the overall sense. The current changes to Rikti and Nemesis bring them into line with the difficulty of other groups (Malta, Carnival). So now all groups are of equal difficulty (that's the goal!).
Now the Inspirations and powers that protect oneself from stunning, etc. are very, very needed. And that's a good thing. Tackle the high level groups without preparation and a hero is in deep trouble - quickly.
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Zones are different than missions because they are broken down into 3 categories: city, hazard & trial. City zones spawn mobs designed for 1 to 3 heroes, hazard zones spawn things for 3 to 5 heroes, and trail zones spawns mobs designed for 5 to 8 heroes.
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Statesmen, you seem to place a lot of faith in Hazard Zones to help large groups. There's three big problems under current play.
First, almost all have a sweet spot that allow you to either solo or due far more effectively than you can do in any larger group. I get better XP duoing the front of Crey's Folly w/ another 34 than I do in a 4 person group in the back, unless I'm not sidekicked - in which case I might as well be powerleveling.
Second, it's virtually impossible to get a group in a hazard zone. I spam requests for hazard zone teams without getting a single response. Unless you have a pre-formed group, you just can't do it.
Third, Hazard Zone mobs vary wildly in difficulty. Faultline just isn't worth it, which means there's a whole level range w/o a hazard zone. TV is either easy (Sky raiders and Freaks) or too annoying to bother with (Lost or Devoured.
Hopefully, this changes come the revolution.
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Ah - this is somewhat unrelated. The game is too easy at higher levels. Larger groups need to hunt higher level spawns in order to find challenge, and therefore fun.
The missions at levels 30+ contain foes -1,0,+1 to the level of the mission holder (or at least the level he was when he received the mission). Those foes are trivially easy for players at those levels. Thus, they go to street sweeping - because the fun is at fighting foes +5 levels - and consequently they receive A LOT of experience points.
The goal (eventually) is to make the +1,0,-1 level spread as fun at 30th level as it was at 10th level.
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Ah, but my question is, is the game TRULY too easy for the majority of players post 30? Or, is it just too easy for the very vocal 1% min/maxers that post on these forums? Will significantly increasing the difficulty end up making it too hard for most people?
This is not a troll or flame; I'm really curious about that. I don't have any high-level characters because I am an alt-junkie and doomed to forever have characters in the lower half of the game. But, when the day comes that I have 20 characters simultaneously reaching 35th level, I'd hate to find that the high end game had been taken over by all the players that can p0wnzers j00!
Dwimble
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SOs really change the face of the game. The mobs themselves for the most part do really become that easy for the average player(with SOs). However the xp gradient goes up so sharply that they need to be to make any progress.
Making them just as fun as they were at level 10 will be great if its truly just as fun. Level 10 to 11 doesn't take that long to accomplish regardless of the AT. Level 30-31 can seem like an eternity can seem like an eternity depending on the AT.
Sailor eX
'Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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A well prepared group of 5-8 mows through introductory purples just as easily as it mows through even cons. Anything bigger than that is a brick wall due to the purple patch scaling upwards too sharply.
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Ah - this is somewhat unrelated. The game is too easy at higher levels. Larger groups need to hunt higher level spawns in order to find challenge, and therefore fun.
The missions at levels 30+ contain foes -1,0,+1 to the level of the mission holder (or at least the level he was when he received the mission). Those foes are trivially easy for players at those levels. Thus, they go to street sweeping - because the fun is at fighting foes +5 levels - and consequently they receive A LOT of experience points.
The goal (eventually) is to make the +1,0,-1 level spread as fun at 30th level as it was at 10th level.
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Sounds promising.
EDIT: It would also make AoE less of a soloing tool if large high level groups are too dangerous to handle. This will go a long way to balance things.
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Currently, there are no spawns anywhere that are worth tackling with a 5+ person team. Unless you are herding, which looks to me like an exploit, even 4 people is a bit too many.
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The Trial Zones. These are designed for teams sizes 6 to 8 or so. Those spawns are HHHUUUGGGGEEEE - and challenging (at the low and mid levels). But many people don't take the challenge.
Again, I'm not sure what "penalty" is being allueded to.
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They might be challenging, but to the strict min/maxer they are not worth it because of one thing: Bosses.
Bosses give about 2-4 times the exp of minions but take 5-6 times longer to kill. Trial zones have bosses in almost every spawn in my experience. They also aren't any more challenging in a group because you have them locked down or under control.
Should you cater to the min/maxer? Sure, because the evidence shows that everyone tries to maximize their play to SOME extent.
This is also why contacts should stop giving high level characters missions in extremely low level zones. If you want us to fight along the way, there has to be something besides grays to fight along the way.
Because as you've said before, we should act like heroes at all time. And beating up the weak, even if they are naughty is not heroic and doesn't feel like it. (The no exp thing sucks too. 
)
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I just completed the Envoy of Shadows story arc (level 35 - 40) last night.
There is NO WAY any AT can solo the Envoy (ArchVillian).
We had 2 Fire blasters, an energy blaster, a fire/kinetics controller and an empath defender and we still had a major battle to take this thing down. Fire imps were useless as they were slaughtered as fast as they could be put out (and this is pre-nerf). This COT Behemoth has 11,000 hit points + dark shroud + regeneration. If anyone thinks they can solo this, I'd love to hear how.
After 40 there are many more missions with ArchVillians in them. So if you want to do all of your story arcs, starting in your late 30s through level 50, you will need to put together a team.
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Actually, I think it is possible...after all I almost did it. While the Envoy does regen alot, I was able to keep bringing him down further and further. It was an extremely long fight at 41 with my DM/scrapper and the only reason why I failed was because just when I had him down to the dregs and knew he had maybe one or two heals left that I could fight him down through, I forgot about my end for one moment and went too far. Bam. Toggles down. While I did escape easily enough, I didn't want to redo that entire fight solo again, for by the time I was ready, he was fully healed up.
So, yes...The Envoy of Shadows is soloable...just not by me, I'll admit 
but almost
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Now the Inspirations and powers that protect oneself from stunning, etc. are very, very needed. And that's a good thing. Tackle the high level groups without preparation and a hero is in deep trouble - quickly.
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This means that alpha strikes become ever more critical. If an enemy doesn't live long enough to attack you there is no need to concern yourself with what nasty status effects it might have.
Also...could you add more Monster classes?
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Currently, there are no spawns anywhere that are worth tackling with a 5+ person team. Unless you are herding, which looks to me like an exploit, even 4 people is a bit too many.
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The Trial Zones. These are designed for teams sizes 6 to 8 or so. Those spawns are HHHUUUGGGGEEEE - and challenging (at the low and mid levels). But many people don't take the challenge.
Again, I'm not sure what "penalty" is being allueded to.
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First, what Trial Zones? The sewer trial is for 38+ (mobs are 42's and mostly bosses). Is there some trial zone that I missed before that?
Secondly, now your just being obtuse. What "penalty" has been described in 4 or 5 posts now.
Here are the cliff notes. The xp gained per mob defeated goes down as you add players. At 4 players, you have capped the difficulty of mobs you can face (+4 your level) and have found the largest concentration of mobs you can face. THE XP LOST DUE TO ADDITIONAL PLAYERS CAN NO LONGER BE MADE UP BY FIGHTING HIGHER LEVEL MOBS OR MORE MOBS BECAUSE OF THE PURPLE PATCH
You know damn well what the penalty is, you are responsible for it. Even though I disagree with the vast majority of your 'Vision' for CoH, I never thought you were unable to see past it. If you cannot grasp the difference between what you see on paper in front of you versus how it actually plays out in the game, CoH is doomed to your 'Vision'.
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Ah - and as for the argument that mission XP "sucks." Yes, you do reap less XP/minute if you simply travel from your contact immediately to your mission door (which tends to be player behavior). However, if you fight some spawns on the way - and finish the mission with the new XP rewards - I think you'll find that missions are much, much more competitive XP wise.
Oh - and one other thing. The vast, vast majority of players at any given time are on missions. XP or not - it's the most popular part of the game.
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Actually, the reason why I don't do missions anymore (or rather rarely do them, because I do like the change) is because on the street I can do my lvl +4 and in the mission there are a set number of my level (or if I'm very lucky +1). Don't get me wrong, I love missions, I have 20+ arcs done but there isn't much in regards to risk vs rewards in missions now unless I'm doing someone ELSES mission and they're higher level than I am.
And yes, it is the most popular part of the game and I agree with it, but the exp still sucks :P I like being able to leave the ksing/leeching/noobinfested(not to be confused with newbie infested. Ignorance & downright stupidity are two different things) streets and just get away from it all and have fun in missions.
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No - the Status effects are not meant to be the way that things get "harder" in the overall sense. The current changes to Rikti and Nemesis bring them into line with the difficulty of other groups (Malta, Carnival). So now all groups are of equal difficulty (that's the goal!).
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This is only my opinion but......if people truely had "FUN" fighting all those other mobs the Crash Site would be packed.You would hear broadcasts for team members to "stack" the Carnies and Malta missions.That isn't the case IMO.People gian in lvl's and get new powers to have them be useful in fights,not have them knocked off and be useless.
Just because it is in the game doesn't mean it is "fun"
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Currently, there are no spawns anywhere that are worth tackling with a 5+ person team. Unless you are herding, which looks to me like an exploit, even 4 people is a bit too many.
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The Trial Zones. These are designed for teams sizes 6 to 8 or so. Those spawns are HHHUUUGGGGEEEE - and challenging (at the low and mid levels). But many people don't take the challenge.
Again, I'm not sure what "penalty" is being allueded to.
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Everybody talks about wanting to do Trial zones, but I can't get anyone to go. The problem is, you can do just as well not wagon-training to a Trial Zone and using a smaller team. Have you thought about making it easier to get to them?
The "group penalty" comes from the suckiness of pick-up teams. I love teams.
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But here's my team experience last night in Brick (ignore it if you want:
Put on Team Seek. Broadcast. No response. No good fits for me to choose. Start soloing.
Get invited to a team - 2 level 29's, 2 level 14's. I kill blues for them for a while, then quit and move on.
Do missions, go to Talos and Dark Astoria. No one's looking to team. Invite a couple people to Sidekick, but they're not interested.
Go back to Brick, try to get a team to go to Crey's. No response.
Find a Defender hanging around Crey's, invite him to team. He's not helping me much, but I like having him around. This is fun. No one else is looking in Crey's.
Join up w/ some higher-level friends of the defender and get SK'd. Get less XP than I did duoing with him earlier. But I like the guys.
Finally find a SG mate and rocket around Bricks. We team, but solo in around the same area.
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By my estimate, I lost out on at least 15 minutes looking through Find Team lists, broadcasting, sitting around wating for people, and so on. I wasted another 15 minutes on a pointless team that wasn't fun.
That's a penalty.
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Currently, there are no spawns anywhere that are worth tackling with a 5+ person team. Unless you are herding, which looks to me like an exploit, even 4 people is a bit too many.
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The Trial Zones. These are designed for teams sizes 6 to 8 or so. Those spawns are HHHUUUGGGGEEEE - and challenging (at the low and mid levels). But many people don't take the challenge.
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I'm confused. What low-mid level trial zones would those be? I haven't played on test, but there's a new low level trial, yes? What else besides the sewer and Hamidon, neither of which are approachable level-wise for my characters IIRC.
[url="http://tinyurl.com/4ylgy"]The Wanderers[/url] of Virtue
We farm fun!
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The most base level of balance is that 3 minions=1 hero.
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Do you actually play your game from time to time? I keep hearing you say that you do, but if your toons are good for 3 minions, than I can only guess you are playing a controller.
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So here's a matchup of level 20 heroes and level 20 minions.
1 hero - 3 minions. Hero receives 120 xp.
4 heroes - 12 minions. Each hero receives 192 xp.
8 heroes - 24 minions. Each hero receives 210 xp.
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I'm sure you are correct. I'm equally sure you completely missed the point. If 1 hero takes out 12 minions, by your own math, that is 480 xp just for him. To get the same 480 xp each, your group of 8 has to kill 55 minions in the same time period. Your groups cannot kill 55 as fast as a decent soloer can kill 12. That is why the XP in large groups stinks. It's merely bad in medium sized groups but actively terrible in groups of 8. This data extrapolates to become even worse, much worse, if you add in the ability to hit higher level opponents, lieutenants, and bosses.
A decent soloer, and I mean decent, not a power build, can kill 12 minions in less than a minute. Take your group of eight and see if they can even travel between enough groups within a minute to hit their 55, much less combat them. Moreover, if they have to travel to a mission location before they hit them, it gets much worse.
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Zones are different than missions because they are broken down into 3 categories: city, hazard & trial. City zones spawn mobs designed for 1 to 3 heroes, hazard zones spawn things for 3 to 5 heroes, and trail zones spawns mobs designed for 5 to 8 heroes.
So, in street sweeping, we've noticed that large groups (say 5 or more) going around city zones - and then complaining that group XP isn't good. When, quite frankly, these groups are street sweeping in areas that don't have anything to challenge a group that size. Risk = reward. And because there's less risk, they don't get as much XP. But if the same group were to go into a Hazard Zone, they'd find larger spawns, and reap the benefit of the group XP bonus.
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If the same group were to go into a hazard zone, they would find an endless supply of XP debt. This is some very simple math right here. If you give half your XP to pay debt, it isn't good XP. Have you somehow failed to notice that Eden and places like it are empty? Have you stopped to ask why? Ask yourself that question. Why? Why is it empty when the XP is so much better for large groups?
Or, better yet ... try ... it ... yourself. If you cannot figure it out at that point, then there is no remaining reason to talk to you. Do a /whoall in there to get your first hint.
I hear these things over and over and over and over both on the boards and in the game:
"Soloing is boring, so I only solo to get rid of my XP debt from grouping."
"Yeah, I'm fire/fire tank so I solo all the time. My SG members join me sometimes when they need to get out of maximum XP debt."
My main, incidentally, is also a fire/fire tank. I have helped your grouping archetypes clear millions in XP debt.
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Note - missions scale to the team size. There is sometimes a delay in when the mob sizes scale up to a new size team....
Ah - and as for the argument that mission XP "sucks." Yes, you do reap less XP/minute if you simply travel from your contact immediately to your mission door (which tends to be player behavior). However, if you fight some spawns on the way - and finish the mission with the new XP rewards - I think you'll find that missions are much, much more competitive XP wise.
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How can you be this uninformed? I'm astounded. But I'll humor you. Small words.
You DELIBERATELY increased the rate of missions being handed out cross zone. If I am level 40, hitting the level <10 mobs in kings row, steel canyon, perez park, skyway city, do not give me any XP.
Just as importantly, if I am in a big group, we do not travel together. We meet at mission sites. Different travel powers. Different starting points. Selling and buying. There are a thousand reasons for this.
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Oh - and one other thing. The vast, vast majority of players at any given time are on missions. XP or not - it's the most popular part of the game.
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Which means the vast, vast majority of players at any given time are getting crappy XP which detracts from their enjoyment of the game. They would like it better if the part of the game they enjoyed also rewarded them well enough to make everyone happy.
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Here are the cliff notes. The xp gained per mob defeated goes down as you add players. At 4 players, you have capped the difficulty of mobs you can face (+4 your level) and have found the largest concentration of mobs you can face. THE XP LOST DUE TO ADDITIONAL PLAYERS CAN NO LONGER BE MADE UP BY FIGHTING HIGHER LEVEL MOBS OR MORE MOBS BECAUSE OF THE PURPLE PATCH
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Just so that I'm clear - the larger the group, the larger the spawn. The problem is not the "purple patch" - the problem is that players are approaching MOB spawns that are simply too small for their group.
Oh - low level trials - Sewers (upper). Faultline.
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The game is too easy at higher levels. Larger groups need to hunt higher level spawns in order to find challenge, and therefore fun.
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This is how the game worked prior to the purple patch. When you added more members to your group you went after harder spawns. After the purple patch your cap is set to +4 from the highest member. If your killing +4 in decent time with 3 people then adding another person only serves to net you less xp per person since you cannot increase the difficulty anymore past +4 to compansate for the added person and another divider to the xp. The solution to this for the players has been to do 2 or 3 groups within the group but I think that ruins the aspect of having a group.
So to recap if your already fighting the max level mobs and doing it in good time adding another person only serves to decrease or penalize the xp you were getting before you added that person. The max mob vs time for the amount of players can be reached at 3 or 4 people. After that it's leech time unless you break the group into two since the new member is not adding to the level of spawn you can attack or making the process any faster (especially in the case of support AT's).
Actually, Sailor Ex, the xp is capped at +5 your level. But your point still stands, if the xp is capped why on earth does it matter if you can kill stuff higher then that?