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Good lord, there is no hope.
Atlas Park is a CITY ZONE. You even said that in your post.
Now reread what I posted, I am comparing a hazard zone (perez et al.) vs what you have called a hazard zone (faultline). There is no difference between a hazard zone and a trial zone other then symantics.
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He's telling you that the three zone types, of which he gave you examples, have increasingly large spawn sizes.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I am comparing a hazard zone (perez et al.) vs what you have called a hazard zone (faultline). There is no difference between a hazard zone and a trial zone other then symantics.
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My bad entirely - you're right - so go to Perez Park. Count the spawns. Go to Faultline. Count the spawns. Compare. Faultline will have 1) larger spawns and/or 2) tougher spawns (i.e. more bosses and lts.)
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So then what is Peregrine supposed to be???? There are groups of 8+ Rikti on the beaches. Same goes for Nemesis and Possessed scientists.
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Peregrine was an experiment of a "mixed" zone. A hazard/city zone. We're changing it into a more typical city zone now.
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Peregrine was an experiment of a "mixed" zone. A hazard/city zone. We're changing it into a more typical city zone now.
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Yes!!!!! Thank you!!!!
Well, I'm a long ways from getting there, but I tend to avoid hazard zones like the plague and wasn't looking forward to the large spawns.
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Good lord, there is no hope.
Atlas Park is a CITY ZONE. You even said that in your post.
Now reread what I posted, I am comparing a hazard zone (perez et al.) vs what you have called a hazard zone (faultline). There is no difference between a hazard zone and a trial zone other then symantics.
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He's telling you that the three zone types, of which he gave you examples, have increasingly large spawn sizes.
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I know what he is telling me. I also know it isn't true. You don't get larger spawns in a hazard zone then you get in a trial zone, or vice versa. A trial/hazard zone have much larger spawns then a city zone. We all know that.
Edit: I just saw Statesman next post. I don't see a difference between the zones, spawn size or difficulty wise. Except for Vahz in faultline, those are frikken nasty.
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When you need to get 4050 even-con minions just to level, at the very least you want to grind through those mobs quickly and efficiently. Its tedious enough now with the sheer numbers you have to kill, I don't think people want every fight to be 'challenging' (read: even more tedious and unfun due to status effects.)
[/ QUOTE ]This just needed to be repeated.
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My bad entirely - you're right - so go to Perez Park. Count the spawns. Go to Faultline. Count the spawns. Compare. Faultline will have 1) larger spawns and/or 2) tougher spawns (i.e. more bosses and lts.)
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From memory, I could swear I recall ...
In Perez, you can find a group of Hellions with 1 Boss, 1 LT's, and 7 or 8 minions. You can also find spawns of 2 bosses or a Boss and 2 Lt's.
In Boomtown, you can find a group of 5th Column with 3 LT's and 7 or 8 minions. Spawns always seem to have at least 1 Lt, and a good number of minions.
In the Faultline, you can find a group of Vahzilok with 1 boss, 2 LT's, and 7 or 8 minions. Spawns sometimes have 2 bosses and a handful of minions with a LT, or a mix between.
In Terra Volta, you can find a group of Skyraiders with 7 Lts who kick the everliving crap out of you. You can also find mixed groups engaged with each other that may have a couple LT's and a slew of minions.
In Dark Astoria, you can find groups of Banished with 1 Boss, 2 or 3 LT's, and 6 to 8 Minions.
When I get home tonight, I'll double-check if someone wants me to... this is just from trying to visualize the groups I've fought.
I just assumed all these were "Hazard Zones" ... I thought a "Trial Zone" was a mission you entered to begin one of the Trials (Like respec)...
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My opinion is that Statesman is going to try to make a trio of level 35 (or any level) white minions just as challenging to a level 35 character as a trio of level 5 white minions was to a level 5 character.
If you had no trouble wiping out three level 5 minions at level 5, then you may also have no trouble taking out three even con minions in the future. If you struggled with them, you might find yourself struggling again.
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Well, at level 5 I only had 4 powers: 2 blasts, 1 slower and 1 heal.. At 34 I have 3 blasts, 1 heal, 1 immobilizer, 1 hold, 1 slow, 1 pet and 2x the endurance, 1 stealth, 1 debuffer, 1 intangible...
I don't think it's fair to have a character with that build and have him barely chug along.
You are correct PainGod. And that is how I see them as well. Any type of spawn (boss,lt,minion composition) that you find in a trial zone is also found in a hazard zone.
It's all well and good to say a hero should be ~= to 3 even minions, until you consider that this means his is likely to have trouble with one red-low purple minion.
Surely it would be more sensible to have a hero = 7-10 even minions and perhaps 2-4 reds (actually turns about about this way in the low-mid 20s I find).
This way a player can still feel heroic battling even minions, and an 8 person group can just hunt 20-30 reds rather than 20-30 evens. The problem at the moment is that a small group can hunt 20-30 reds, not that a small group can hunt large number of even minions.
The basic problem with the idea is that lots of people like to solo, and it just doesn't feel heroic hunting 3 villans, especially not when it's 3 villans with difficulty. What feels heroic is killing things with relative ease, the difficulty comes not in the strength of the opponent, but in the number.
If a single hero has to struggle to kill 3 minions, he feels weak, if he kills 10 in the same amount of time, for the same amount of exp, with the same amount of risk, he feels heroic.
I hope you guys are also looking into quick kill strategies, soloing will allmost always be the best exping strategy cause it provides you with the most influence/enhancers and thx to quick kill strategies, you can also just quickly kill mobs with AoEs and move on, not bother spending time on cleaning up. Causes trains and gives soloers an extreme xp advantage. So, yes, there are indirect penalties for grouping beyond that the highest level person in group is basically PLing everyone, there are also penalties for not able to quick kill *** affectively and ofcourse its less convinent to be tied to a group rather than soloing whenever you like.
Herding is not the only way to gain xp fast, infact herding reaquires certian situations, quick kills dosent really, as long as yer in a zone with high numbers of mob groups, you can quick kills and get comparable xp.
I know it is a typo in your post, but I still laughed out loud when I read "quick kill ***". I really don't know why, I just found it extremely funny.
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Well, at level 5 I only had 4 powers: 2 blasts, 1 slower and 1 heal.. At 34 I have 3 blasts, 1 heal, 1 immobilizer, 1 hold, 1 slow, 1 pet and 2x the endurance, 1 stealth, 1 debuffer, 1 intangible...
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And minions have more powers too.
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I don't think it's fair to have a character with that build and have him barely chug along.
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I agree. That's where increased XP per enemy comes in. Again, how much of an increase is the question, since that will determine how slowly or quickly people chug along.
FYI: I don't know -exactly- how it works, but entire city zones SCALE MOB SIZES
Go to test when its -empty-
Walk around Talos.
Notice all the mob sizes are 1-4 mobs? Very few lts/bosses?
I did this before U2 was on the test server, there was me and one other person in Talos. Everywhere I went, mob sizes were tiny. On Virtue at the same time, mob sizes were -all- easily 2-3 times as big.
Now go to your main server and wander around Talos.
Compare.
Of course, with U2 freshly on Test, you may have to wait a long time to be able to test this for yourself.
I'm sure a red name could point this out and give better clues as to how it works.
Nevermind that Statesman already hinted at it. 
Statesman, I am disappointed in you. Quite disappointed. You tell us that large player groups should move out of the city zones and move to the Hazard and Trial zones. Many posters including myself have pointed out that we can't, because of SKs. You have completely ignored us. Yet you have made several posts as soon as someone posted that the groups are no larger in Trial zones. You know how it appears? Like on the one issue the players are demonstrably right, and your "vision" can't be defended. So you don't post. However, as soon as someone takes issue with something where you think you can shoot them down, you jump right in. You have a great rep with the players, but your attitude in this thread isn't exactly giving it a polish.
Reading through the thread (about 1/3 of the way through now), and want to make a counterpoint that is likely to be a minority view since the opposite viewpoint has been stated many times (and my viewpoint not once (yet)).
I like being sent back to newb type zones by my contacts.
I'd be annoyed if it happened with every mission, but at the rate I've been getting them in the mid 20s (about 10 or 15% of the time), it's totally cool with me. I like being reminded of my character's past, and I love the idea that (for example) there's a huge underground 5th Column base in King's Row - a zone filled with hundreds of zealous but inexperienced heroes who have no idea what's really going on right under their noses.
Sure, it has nothing to do with actual detective skills or anything - it's just another contact giving me another mission, just like those low level characters are doing - but I nevertheless get a sense of accomplishment.
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Reading through the thread (about 1/3 of the way through now), and want to make a counterpoint that is likely to be a minority view since the opposite viewpoint has been stated many times (and my viewpoint not once (yet)).
I like being sent back to newb type zones by my contacts.
I'd be annoyed if it happened with every mission, but at the rate I've been getting them in the mid 20s (about 10 or 15% of the time), it's totally cool with me. I like being reminded of my character's past, and I love the idea that (for example) there's a huge underground 5th Column base in King's Row - a zone filled with hundreds of zealous but inexperienced heroes who have no idea what's really going on right under their noses.
Sure, it has nothing to do with actual detective skills or anything - it's just another contact giving me another mission, just like those low level characters are doing - but I nevertheless get a sense of accomplishment.
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I just logged off after doing three missions in King's Row, Steel Canyon and Skyway City....at level 33. I get more than 50% of my missions in zones where everything is grey. I hardly ever get missions in Founder's Falls, where three of my contacts are or Brickstown where the rest are.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
States to be honest I applaud your experiment though.
howeve, I'm not sure such a small place is the right setting for a "mixed zone."
Seems to me, THe Hollows already is set up to fit that bill and maybe you should consider that as a new center to try out the mixed zone? Hell, as soon as you go in through AP you have buildings and such... could be similar to a frontier town in the old west- similar to cities with a hell of lot more risk.
just a thought
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Peregrine was an experiment of a "mixed" zone. A hazard/city zone. We're changing it into a more typical city zone now.
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Then please remove the lvl limit on hazard zones at the same time so normal groups (who _always_ have SKs in them) can enter them.
Right now hazard zones cuts us off from grouping with our low lvl friends and therefore we dont go there.
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You are correct PainGod. And that is how I see them as well. Any type of spawn (boss,lt,minion composition) that you find in a trial zone is also found in a hazard zone.
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This is demonstrably not true.
Or... where are the spawns in Dark Astoria of nothing but 8 Storm Shaman?
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Peregrine was an experiment of a "mixed" zone. A hazard/city zone. We're changing it into a more typical city zone now.
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Hope you still leave some fun aspects of PI in place, like the insane ambushs, they've been adding some color to that place. I kinda liked PI, except that there been way too much BoringToDeathNemesis and not enough other groups properly balanced throughout the 40-50 level range (44-46 villains quite hard to find).
Still, with all I did read about the new zones, I fear the mass of the players will still pile up in PI, as there BoringToDeathNemesis are so easy to grind on, why taking challenges with the little xp difference there is between taking out nasty Foes and easy ones.
Which brings me to a question to Statesman. Why is the XP per villain that much fixed to its level? There are some differences, I know, but as long you can take out 10 Nemesis in the time you need for 4 Maltas, a lot of people won't hunt nasty villain groups. This issue starts with the DE coming into the game, when alot of people say 'No, I don't want to fight DE, they always drop my toggles'. It would be easier to pursuade them doing these villains if the xp would differ somewhat more between villain factions.
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FYI: I don't know -exactly- how it works, but entire city zones SCALE MOB SIZES
Go to test when its -empty-
Walk around Talos.
Notice all the mob sizes are 1-4 mobs? Very few lts/bosses?
I did this before U2 was on the test server, there was me and one other person in Talos. Everywhere I went, mob sizes were tiny. On Virtue at the same time, mob sizes were -all- easily 2-3 times as big.
Now go to your main server and wander around Talos.
Compare.
Of course, with U2 freshly on Test, you may have to wait a long time to be able to test this for yourself.
I'm sure a red name could point this out and give better clues as to how it works.
Nevermind that Statesman already hinted at it.
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I noticed this back when I was just getting into Steel Canyon. When I played in the afternoons, all the 5th column spawns were 3+, with at least one being a Lt. Early in the morning, it was common to find 1 Lt, or 2 minions. Same went for Outcasts, for that matter. At the time, I was quite happy about that, because it meant I could street-hunt without getting in over my head.
After finishing soloing two of the three Terra Volta hunting missions that we get at L23-24, I can tell you there are a lot more mobs there. The Freaks were easy, they would separate from the packs, but I got more debt than ever before trying to solo kill Sky Raiders. And I finally gave up on Lost, my Rooted/Knockback combo just kept getting me killed.
I am SO sick of hunting missions, I got a few non-hunting missions after L20 but after that it was just hunting mission after hunting mission. That's not content.
Scorus
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You can call them what you like, but they are no different then what we have agreed is a hazard zone. The spawn sizes are no different for a single person then for an 8 person team. I checked that today just to be sure I hadn't missed anything.
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Nope. Go to Atlas Park. Count the number of foes in a spawn. Go to Faultline. Count the number of spawns. Atlas Park - city zone. Faultline - Trial Zone.
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I think you missed the point. If you're in DA, faultline, Boomtown, or any hazard zone, etc... A mob of Sky Raiders is in a group of 9 - 10. generally it's 10 with varying formations. This doesn't increase if I'm solo or in a group of 8. In AP "city zones", I noticed that sometimes the mobs are larger based on team sizes. Generally smaller if I'm solo and the only hero in the area. Sometimes it's difficult to tell in city zones becuase you don't know he created the spwan first with all the heros running around.
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Statesman's tricky task is to re-balance the XP gain so that people who are wiping out groups of oranges now won't be screaming for his head on a platter. Increasing same-level challenge will come with increased XP, but the question is whether it will be enough. I don't know, I don't wipe out groups of oranges like you do. And neither of us are quite at the 30+ target level.
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That is the tricky part. I really hope these changes work. It'd be nice to bring my defenders out of storage.