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But if the same group were to go into a Hazard Zone, they'd find larger spawns, and reap the benefit of the group XP bonus.
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Hazard and Trial zones have a SL minimum that won't let SKs in. I convince my friend to join me and my other friends in the game, we can SK him so he can play with us, but only if we hunt in city zones where the spawns are too small for us.
If your intent is to get bigger groups to hunt in the Hazard and Trial Zones, allow SKs into them.
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Amen Brother!
Bel
Anything that would improve the game, I'm all for. There is a huge caveat. If there are people that want to race through the game in so they can see everything in whatever time they allot, and that causes the majority of players to get bored with the game and leave it, then that is not an improvement of the game by at least one difficult to argue standard, namely that "cease to exist due to lack of subscribers" cannot be considered an improvement.
There is a difference between something that benefits the players as individuals, and something that benefits the game as a whole. Perhaps it is evil to say this, but if the treadmill keeps people here, then it is a Good Thing, even if it is a bad thing. If taking the treadmill away causes people to get what they want too quickly, and that causes them to move on, it is a Bad Thing even if it is a good thing.
Bottom line, I want more interesting things to do, and I believe that everyone else would tend to stay to see it, so I have no argument with adding content. I believe that people should not have to do too much of what they do not want to do, so if the two xp tracks are missions and street sweeping, adding just enough xp to guarantee that just as you run out of the last mission, the next story arc is just about to open for you is also fine by me.
But any change to the game predicated on the singular assumption that "what I want shouldn't hurt you, so bugger off" is to me fatally flawed. Ultimately, suggesting that is like saying that being drunk in the park shouldn't bother other people who should just mind their own business any way, so they shouldn't complain while you vomit in the bushes, nor should they lodge any opposition to your proposal to the city council to legalize bush-vomitting.
I should also point out that you ought to be playing the game because you enjoy playing the game. You enjoy the current mechanics, you enjoy the multiplayer experience, you enjoy playing with friends. If the entire game is just a means to an end for you, namely getting every power, badge, souvenir, and access to every zone so you can take pictures, well, the game simply will never be designed for you. And neither will any other MMOG - such a design is self-destructing on its face.
I used to know people who made the same complaint about school, seriously. They were only there for the diploma/degree, because they "needed it." But boy, was it hard work just to get it. Maybe if school didn't force you to take all those "unnecessary" classes, or shortened them to a month each, lets say.
My point is you go to school to take classes, ostensibly to get an education. You subscribe to CoH to play the game, not to earn xp. If you are playing it to earn xp, you have yourself already converted it from a game to a job, all by yourself. The only question is how hard of a job it is.
Sorry if this seems harsh, its not intended to be. I can appreciate those people who really believe that certain changes to the game would benefit some, and hurt none. I just don't agree that accelerating the xp progression more than just enough to make mission-leveling credible is not harmful to the game. I know exactly one person that quit because they got tired of the grind. I know of more that intend to because of hitting 50, and that is sad.
Anecdotal, I know, so an argument it is not. Just a feeling, which is what I have now. Someone called it BS, and asked if anyone would play this game if you were stuck in Atlas at level 2.
If my friends were stuck in there with me? Yes.
I guess I'm just weird that way.
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There are an awful, awful lot of good posts on this thread.
Just want to say how much I appreciate the effort being put into making groups desirable States. Issues I see right now are;
1. Villian Hit Points are so low they rarely last long enough in any kind of battle which includes a high damage output hero of any archtype, coupled with area effect attack types the number of opponents you face in any fight is inconsequential, the reason the balance exists at levels 1-22 is the lack of players with six slotted powers and single origin damage enhancements which exponentially exacerbate the problem.
2. It is very easy to get defense to cap thus reducing the chance to be hit to slim to not at all right now, combined with accuracy debuffs or a 30 second defense inspiration the rare hit that lands can usually be regenerated by any hero thus removing much of the risks inherent for any archtype. Who needs a healer, if you dont get hit, who needs minions held if they wont be hitting you enough by the time they are dead, and also who needs a high resistance agro and hit point sponge same reason.
3. Lack of intelligent villian AI, when one Hellion from Hellion group A runs away and thru Hellion group B why doesnt Hellion group B come help beat down the heros, currently heros have easy control over the size of every fight they pick knowing that Villians have no social agro outside thier own spawn group. Also some villians that do much better damage at range or at close range seem to use thier weakest form of attack regularly, The 5th Coloum, Rikti, Nemisis, come to mind.
My suggestions would be;
Increase all villian hit points on a scale to match pace with the enhancements that are readily available at that level, Dual Origin damage enhancers double the damage output a level 1-12 hero is capable of so start scaling there and double that scale at level 22 when single origin damage enhancement and multiple powers that are six slotted are available. Another possible fix to deal with how the damage being multiplied exponentially would be to change the enhancements from 8.25/16.5/33.33 to 5/10/20 just like resistance and defense and range enhancements currently are, this would impact high damage archtypes and powers more than low damage archtypes and powers such as controllers/defenders/tankers, its an issue of exponential damage per attack, this way mob hitpoints being increased would not make them unsoloable to the low damage archtypes or powers.
Higher Hit points villians still have the issue of not being able to hit heros enough to equal risk however. for this I would suggest creating in effect a statistical cap on Villians based on rank. To illustrate;
Minion/Underling - no caps, to maintain the feeling of powerful heros against these lesser villians, and to give players that prefer to solo easier targets for thier experience hunting.
Lieutenants - 25% chance to hit/avoid attack capped in an Accuracy vs. Defense comparison, that cap is subject to being reduced by accuracy debuffs and defense debuffs as well though, So combining high defense plus accuracy debuffs or defense debuffs on a target could still bring the villians effective accuracy and defense to minion levels. Special effects powers (Holds, Immobilize, Sleep, Taunt, Fear, Slow, Confuse, Disorient etc...) last 25% less time.
Bosses - 50% Accuracy versus Defense cap, Debuffs capped at 50% so the base chance to hit or avoid a hit would always be at least 1 in 4. Bosses for the most part are the closest thing to a hero in power and should reflect that, not quite as powerful as a hero, but sufficiently powerful to pose some risk. Special effects would be capped at 50% duration/effect for (Holds, Sleep, Immobilze, Taunt, Fear, Slow etc....)
Monsters/ArchVillians - Accuracy versus Defense capped at 75%, with debuffs being capped at 25% reduction at most making these rare Villians a must have a group bunch to fight as they will avoid over half the attacks directed at them and hit over half the time they attack, making buffs, healing, debuffs etc.. critical aids in these battles. Special effects would have 75% less duration/effect.
The percentage numbers obviously are subjective but the gist is to hard cap villian ranks for accuracy vs. defense, debuff effect, and special effects duration/effect. This will make the practice of herding much more dangerous unless the person herding is somehow able to herd crowds of minions and underlings only. The AE attacker that depended on thier high defense or Invicibility Tanker/Scrapper that doesnt need hit points would need to be more selective of the crowd size they engage, or use more endurance costly attacks on Lieutenants now as well to avoid the increased likelyhood of being hit. This change would have minimal impact on low level heros since lower level heros dont have enough powers 6 enhancement slotted or powerful enough enhancements to attain the cap anyhow, but the impact would be felt as one got higher and higher level.
Lastly code in a more intelligent social agro for villians, so that if a villian from the same group moves within a certain radius of a villian from the same group that villian gains agro against the hero(s) as well and comes to thier aid. The Hellion that runs away on the street may bring 1 or more groups of Hellions to attack the Hero on the street or even indoors. Villians should be intelligent enough to use thier most effective attack form, if the Nacht Grenadier does twice the damage at a distace he should prefer that method of attack over punching. Villians should also inherently put a certain distance between a hero and themselves if they prefer to use ranged attacks this effect of spreading out will make mass herding with AE powers slightly less effective means of mass killing crowds of 20-40. Powers that Taunt could enrage a villian to the point he desires to be at melee range. Adding a built in inherent melee range Provoke effect to Tanker only toggles would help in this catagory as well, Invincibility already does this but why not add the same effect to Blazing Aura and the Ice and Earth tanker PBAE toggle equivilents. Personally I think that would be much more preferable to the coding nightmare of adding PBAE taunt effect to tanker attacks you suggested earlier since the effect already exists in invicibility and you would only need to create its equivilent in the other 3 sets. The need to keep enemies from running for help, or spreading out would make controller holds more needed as well. Fear could decrease accuracy and make the targets seeks to be out of melee range from the object of thier fear.
More Hit Points, Better Defense vs Accuracy and debuff scaling, and more intelligent Villians. Thanks for the forum.
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There are an awful, awful lot of good posts on this thread.
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There are an awful, awful lot of long posts on this thread 
Statesman, im not sure if this has been bough up already but there is one major flaw in group xp that I personally hate. That is, the highest level person in group usually gets horriable xp. When doing the brickstown TF. I gained half my level when I was 31/32, when I was 34/35, I gained little over a bar.....thats about 3 times less xp if you are the highest lvl in group as opposed to people 3-4 levels below you. How is that fair to the high levels that preety much carry the groups anyways? Unless the amount of xp you must gain doubles every level, you cant possibly tell me that xp in groups is scaling fairly to everyone.
This is one of the prime reasons that offset me about grouping, I usually dont group unless I AM one of the lower level guys, even cons give crap xp.
So can you please consider re-doing the group xp equation so it calculates everyone that is in group and distributes xp accordingly? I really think that fixing the xp given to higher level players in groups will go a long way into fixing the game and will also encourage people to SK too instead of leeching.
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Just so that I'm clear - the larger the group, the larger the spawn. The problem is not the "purple patch" - the problem is that players are approaching MOB spawns that are simply too small for their group.
Oh - low level trials - Sewers (upper). Faultline.
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States, I think that people are alluding to the fact that "more" doesn't necessarily = harder in a way. I mean sure...you're more likely to die to 10 reds coming toward your group than 3 reds....however, the stratedgy of the reds isn't changing...it's just throwing more at you at once.
Like in the reactor respec mission....if one purple boss and a bunch of reds/orange came for my group of 4 I'd be able to handle it....the challenge in the reactor is just that there are MORE of the same mobs coming at you. So, now I have 10 purple tank Freaks to hold...which requires 20 single casts of my hold....or one AE cast and 10 single casts (assuming NO misses) on all the mobs. This is impossible to do, btw 
It just becomes: Kill MORE mobs over and over with more people in group. (Don't get me wrong, I love the respec mission...but a variety of mobs would be cool with better strats as you get more in group.) It becomes: "Ok, ONE purple freak tanker can one hit me.....and I have 9 more comingn for me." Sometimes there's alot of running around involved to get away. More mobs, the more running, heh. I can't possibly hold them all back. (Btw: their culmulative range damage...oh GOD does that suck heh.)
I mean: A buildup + aim + nova energy blaster can devistate (if not take out) a group of 3 reds just as easy as 10 reds. A well slotted Ice Controller can freeze a group of 3 reds just as fast as a group of 10 (with his "Glacier", assuming they aren't all bosses.) It just comes down to "how many you miss."
I wish that special mobs would spawn after getting more than a certain number of people in a group that would add to the challenge. Sorta like the boss knows a bunch of heroes are coming and he sends in "harder" mobs. Sorta like how the Crey have the "Paragon Protectors." Those things are ROUGH....if you made the normal Crey spawn in the missions, and then in missions with more than 4 people in group: start having Paragon Protectors spawn in the mission. Instead of throwing more mobs at the players.
I hope I made it clear....make some variety to it
Served Cold 34 Ice/Storm (35 on test.)
Level 53: Arrows/Devices/Munitions Blaster
....and hopeless Science-Natzi.
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Minion/Underling - no caps,
Lieutenants - 25% chance to hit/avoid attack capped
Bosses - 50% Accuracy versus Defense cap,
Monsters/ArchVillians - Accuracy versus Defense capped at 75%,
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You don't have Super Reflexes, obviously. We already get the short end on that crap.
But i'm with you in the sense that bosses should be "more like heros" and the AI should be improved.
Mutant of the city, that last part is a neat idea. Certain mobs that only spawn to groups of certain sizes.
WereVampire
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MOST amazing Brute engineer goes to: Ultrawatt. His SS/Fire farm build is SMASH!
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Then that group can go into a zone with smaller spawns, but higher levels mobs. So a group of 8 level 30 guys could go into a hazard zone with spawns for a group of 3 to 5 - but with levels +1, +2,+3 to the group...Heck, a single +4 should be a challenge to several heroes. But it's not. That's the problem.
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To the other poster's point, a group of anything more than 2 going after whites or yellows is in for a long tedious grind. Unless something changes with XP, making enemies harder will encourage soloing even more. A team will end up facing a few difficult mobs that are high enough to give xp but won't be worth the trouble in terms of time/xp.
If more things become "not worth it", you will find people will zero in on smaller and smaller segments of the content. Take Nemesis as an example. It wasn't that people couldn't beat CoT or Carnies, it was just less efficient. Dealing with things like illusionists vs warhulks for similar or more XP is a no brainer. If the mob is harder, make the reward greater, otherwise this cycle will continue until all mobs are basically the same (addition of status effects, more hp, etc). I hope this is not the direction of CoH.
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Currently the xp gained for defeating 1 mob decreases as you add people to the team. This is supposed to be offset by the added team members allowing the team to fight tougher mobs and more of them. Great theory, but it doesn't work.
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You've hit the nail on the head! The more people who gang up on a SINGLE mob are obviously decrease their risk against that mob.
In City of Heroes, it's the sheer size of the spawn that counts...If you've got a bigger group, then go find a bigger spawn. Simple as that. But if a group of 4 heroes defeats 3 minions (which are designed for only a single hero), then they aren't getting much XP. Those 4 heroes should take their act to a Hazard zone, where the spawn sizes are appropriate for their team.
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Statesman,
I'm level 41, and the highest of my usual group. We have 38's in the mix, so can't go to the crash site. We have several SG members who aren't hard core who are still in the 20s. So even when my 38ish friends catch up, Hazard zones won't be an option. Nearly every weekend we end up with a full group of 8, and usually at least 2 or 3 low level SKs. I would LOVE to take this large group to a hazard zone to find challenging fights, but the level restriction prevents it. We end up street sweepign in PI, which I've been bored of since 39.
Sometimes I can get challenging missions, but we can't rely on that.
If you're solution to poor group XP is Hazard Zones, entry restrictions need to be loosened. Crash site should be 35, imho. Also, please consider allowing SKs access to hazard zones based on current fighting level.
Odd I thought high level play was built with the assumption that we could take on higher level and more numerous foes already. In the games help file a boss is supposed to be a foe which can defeat a single hero with ease. This is true at level two, but by level 32 most should be able to take on at least one boss of equal level along with minions. Looking at perigrin island I notice small isles with two monsters on them. Reading over the games help file I find that a single monster should require a team of eight heroes to defeat. Level 40+ missions start to include AVs which are supposed to take six heroes to defeat. I can't help but think that the bar was meant to be raised as you leveled.
Statesman, I'll add my voice to the players who are asking for sidekicks to be able to enter hazard and trial zones based on their effective instead of actual level. This is my number one grouping complaint. My friends and I will be playing in a group of 6 or more at least once a week, but it is basically guaranteed that two or three of us will be sidekicked because they cannot play as often.
Sidekicking is a GREAT feature for this game. Aside from the whole comic book aspect, the ability to sidekick is the most appealing game mechanic in this entire game (and that is saying something because we love most of the mechanics). It makes this the first game we can play together without needing to artifically limit ourselves by having "group-only" characters.
But the current restrictions in the game pretty much guarantees our group of 6 or 7 will rarely visit any hazard zones, and we will rarely do task forces, and we will miss out on most of the main group-friendly content in this game because we will never all be the same levels.
Please, please, PLEASE change the level restrictions on hazard zones and, if possible, task forces so that it is based on the effective level instead of the actual level.
I've been reading Statesman's responses in this thread, and I must say it sends a chill down my spine. I'm pretty sure what he is saying is that they want to make it HARDER for a group to take on even con mobs, and nearly impossible for them to take on Red Con mobs. He never, ever ever indicates that he thinks XP should go up.
So, it seems the plan is to make it such that you must group to take on white con mobs and get even LESS xp than you get today. Thus the future of this game seems to be forced grouping with terrible XP. Soloing will be possible, but your XP will be next to nothing. Missions will become impossible as the even con mobs and bosses won't be doable by a solo player at all.
It seems our best hope right now is that the competition gets their games released sooner rather than later, and save us the pain.
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So, it seems the plan is to make it such that you must group to take on white con mobs and get even LESS xp than you get today. Thus the future of this game seems to be forced grouping with terrible XP. Soloing will be possible, but your XP will be next to nothing. Missions will become impossible as the even con mobs and bosses won't be doable by a solo player at all.
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That's not what I got at all. He seemed to be pretty clear that a player should be able to solo three even con minions. The difficulty of many enemies 30+ is simply too easy, and taking out 3 of them is very easy for a solo player. The plan is to boost the difficulty of those 30+ enemies, but still keeping the balance of approximately three minions to one player.
The possibility of increasing enemy XP was only tied to the conjectural idea of increasing 30+ enemy hit points, which is not necessarily the way they'll go.
The developers are bound to make one group upset. If they make things more challenging, and more fun to the people who want challenging opponents, then the people who want to level fast will face a slower grind. Making the enemies cough up more XP would help, but by that token so would lowering level XP requirements.
Frankly I get the impression that Statesman and company are more interested in making things more fun content wise than fast leveling wise. I'm all for fun superheroing content myself.
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In other words if you are not an AT or build with resistance to status effects you are not allowed to solo at high lvl?
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And yet, when I pop not 1 but *2* disciplines I get held AND endurance drained to zero by an orange Carnie boss in less than a second.
No exaggeration, less than a SECOND.
Yeah, those inspirations sure are helping, aren't they?
That's what the Inspirations are for! To help the solo player!
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I'd like to take this moment to applaud PainGod's Sig.
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I love teaming with kinetics, but I agree. Heh, I've actually seen, or rather not seen, what happens when 2 kinetics unleash fulcrum shift at the same time I'm setting off nova. CoH becomes Powerpoint, the dreaded 100fx dialog becomes your friend, and you start checking for immobile (d/c) teammates. Yet another facet of the game that requires you to go find a group to experience 
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heh, I actually didn't get to experience the might that is FS until I was around 39 and in Abandoned Sewers, when a controller with it just about froze me every single time she set that puppy off. It's bad enough that all my auras can make my card go wonky at time (when it happens, I just turn everything off and then re-toggle and its fine for a time) but good god...lol...FS gives me EQ flashbacks 
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In other words if you are not an AT or build with resistance to status effects you are not allowed to solo at high lvl?
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And yet, when I pop not 1 but *2* disciplines I get held AND endurance drained to zero by an orange Carnie boss in less than a second.
No exaggeration, less than a SECOND.
Yeah, those inspirations sure are helping, aren't they?
That's what the Inspirations are for! To help the solo player!
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I doubt inspirations are meant to help for the carnies. I have Integration and the Ring Mistresses (especially one mission boss I had for an instanced door/train mission) just bypass it and suck you dry...and of course every "defeated" minion/lt/boss from the Carnies steals some when they go down. That's because End Drain/Psychic is their main power (storyline is the masks link everyone to the AV psychically I believe). Psychic is extremely difficult to resist (I think only Stone Armor gives any real resistance...anyone know of any others?) and since they are the only villian group that is based on psychic, it seems right that it's even harder to resist them since they're so good at it. I've never had my Integration go down, but the secondary effect of end drain off each defeat, Bosses, and the nasty lil juggler ring things, will drain me everytime. I don't get stunned, or any other status effect, my integration takes care of that, but end drain isn't covered by Integration or the inspirations. After all, their end drain isn't a status effect like Disorient, SLeep, knockback etc...that inspiration would cover, but it's a sideeffect that isn't covered...just like with Clockwork or those bedarned Sappers from the Malta group. Their Sap sticks are supposed to be end drain & hold, but the inspirations & integration for instance would give you a chance to resist the hold, but there is no resist on the end drain. Sorry..rambling. 
Well if Statesman wants people to farm in mass numbers of mobs for it to be challengeing all I have to ask is: What is the usefullness of PA in a large group?
PA spawns two to four guys who randomly agro things for 45 seconds or I could take a class that can Disorient everyone in the area of effect at the same level or earlier actually. What is the role of the illusion controller at later levels when Everyone has their more powerfull holds.
How can PA even begin to compare to other holds/disorients when you are fighting 24 minions at a time. The fix to PA has taken PAs teeth out as far as large groups go useing your reasoning of more mobs = more xp.
The more things there are for PA to "Agro" to controll the less usefull it is. Also its random. All I have to say about the get more mob approach to balance xp. Illusion seems to suffer the larger the group gets.
Your right Statesman, there is no "penality" in the math used nobody can argue with you there, I mean you see the code every day and there is no benefit to lie straight up to the community.
However, this is a big however, logistics become the problem, 5+ people become difficult to organize and move just using chat.
So the preceived penality is real but its not in the math.
I've done several groups where 2 four player 'teams' are on one formal team.
For example my sceneario
3 blasters 1 tank on a four man team.
6 blasters 2 tanks on an 8 man team.
No mention of support units because they arent
needed fighting even cons
Fighting a line of even cons 16 mobs.
After about 3 blasters a spawn dosent fall any faster. It becomes a matter of just waiting on your aoe's dot to finnish ticking.
If you have a line of 16 spawns all even con, a 4 player team will clear it just as fast as an 8 player because players do not cordinate thier attacks.
3 fire balls to an even level spawn will drop the spawn hands down, blaze and flares are used on any standing bosses/lts.
The 4th and 5th and 6th fire balls thrown by the 8 man team attacks are just wasted, the dot from the fire balls just dosent move as fast as the player. These minions are already dead even if people are shooting at them because the dot hasnt exhausted yet.
Now instead of being able to just move to the next group, all players in the 8 man team must wait on thier powers to recharge
Now if you took that same team Broken down into two groups,
Two four man teams start at opposite ends of the line. No fire balls are wasted. The group kills the line in half the time and receives the xp bonous.
The consensious in my SG that we teach all members is that +1 and +2 cons in teams of 3-4 are the best hunting xp in terms of time/risk/reward. Although its is terribly boring, +1 and +2 cons are clean and efficient. Avoid bosses because their resistance + hp + special abilities dont make them worth your time, while Paragon Protectors are using mog, Fake nemesis are using thier bubble, the list goes on, you could be killing another 6 minons worth more xp than that one kill.
Here's my suggestion to To make an 8 man team deserible, you need to open up the level spread higher, 6+ at least. Because pick up groups dont make the effort to organize them selves. Everbody is all like charge and kill while if they took 3min to orgainze themselves they would be 100% more effective
However, as I'm pretty sure your thinking, well they should take the effort to orgaize themselves.
That is true as well but how you wish to deal with that arugement is your job not mine unless I'm
getting paid to do it.
My only gripe with the purple patch is that it limits what I can hunt meaning that I have to find a path of spawns that level.
Other actual penalties to groups,
A 19, 20 21,21 are grouped together, penality, too high for boom town, too low for DA, and there is very little to hunt in talos or ip that cater to that lvl range.
B1FF, we all know who im talking about, that one guy that has total of 1 cells in his entire brain that work.
My fire energy tank can take on 8-9 spawns of equal cons 15+ spawns if they are are only fire/leathal/smashing damage. Then when thoes spawns all provoked into a corner I light them up, thus killing faster than I could in any group.
I don't understand many of the solutions proposed here. Not understanding other people's ideas is a shockingly frequent occurrence for me, so I'll survive, but I really would like to know how these solutions fix the problem since I'm interested in teaming and the dynamics of large teams. So please bear with me while I restate what I think are the problems and the potential solutions. If I've misunderstood the problem or the proposed solutions, please let me know how.
The problem: teams are less viable in terms of xp/time the bigger they get. This is because of two factors. First, 4 man teams can kill mobs at the xp cap as well as 8 man teams. This xp cap was introduced shortly after the purple patch was. Second, because an 8 person team purportedly cannot find spawns any larger than 4 person teams can, although Statesman seems to dispute this and points to Trial Zones as a place where this happens. Has anybody tested and confirmed that, in Trial Zones, 4 man teams spawn groups that are no larger than 8 man teams do?
Proposed solution 1: Reduce blaster AOE damage. It seems to me that this will reduce the very high xp/time rate that AOE blasters enjoy. Because of this, I feel that many AOE blasters will respec to become single-target pros, and they will be reduced to the soloing speed of scrappers, who still solo pretty fast in my experience.
Impact on teams of proposed solution 1: Teams with AOE blasters become less viable due to less xp/time. Teams without them see no change in xp/time.
Drawbacks of proposed solution 1: Only solves a very small part of the problem. A significant proportion of the very many AOE blasters in the game will be outraged.
Proposed solution 2: Remove the "purple patch," which makes enemies who are more than 4 or 5 levels greater exponentially more difficult. Teams will once more be able to defeat enemies who are 8 - 10 levels higher. However, since the xp benefit cap is reportedly fixed at mobs that are +5, this will not increase team xp gain.
Impact on teams of proposed solution 2: Teams will be able to have more fun, challenging fights, but xp/time will not increase.
Drawbacks of proposed solution 2: Does not make groups more viable.
Proposed solution 3: Remove the "purple patch" AND the xp cap. I haven't seen this one articulated in so many words, but I gather that it's what some people want. The problem here seems to be one of balance; it is possible to twink a system without caps fairly easily and power level without much difficulty at all. Some argue that this should be fine because it lets everybody play the way they want, but Lady_Arcana made a very compelling argument that this sort of thing damages the game. Perhaps an easier way to see the drawback of this is to imagine what would happen if everybody could just set their level at character creation - obviously the game's subscription rate would suffer badly.
Impact on teams of proposed solution 3: Teams become more viable in terms of xp/time. However, it remains the case that larger teams are less viable than smaller teams, even if only because of Ariel1's astute notion of "team friction."
Drawbacks of proposed solution 3: Presents balance concerns that the dev team obviously considers problematic.
Proposed solution 4: Rather than raise all heroes' maximum effectiveness so that an 8 man team is no longer overkill, lower all characters' average effectiveness so that the increased power of an 8 man team is actually valuable. This is an approach which reduces overkill in all areas of the game (solo and team) so that the higher end of grouping (8 man teams) no longer bumps into the low end of the purple patch before it gets to the knee of the xp/time curve. It essentially is a way of attenuating hero power across the board so that the power of a group remains within the limits dictated by balance (as enforced by the purple patch) no matter how big or small the group is.
Impact on teams of proposed solution 4: All heroes become less viable in terms of villains defeated/time. Depending on whether xp rewards are tweaked, xp/time may be reduced as well. Teams become more valuable and more viable because villains can be killed in numbers and at rates that are not possible solo or with very small groups.
Drawbacks of proposed solution 4: There will probably be a general sense of dismay that heroes have become less powerful compared to mobs. DOs will no longer seem like a power magnifier compared to Training enhancements, and likewise comparing SOs over DOs; instead they will be seen as a necessary lifeline to struggling heroes. The "cusp levels" just before DOs and SOs become available in stores are likely to become more difficult. As average hero power diminishes, the already meager ability of certain ATs to solo may diminish too much.
Solution 4 seems most speculative (principally because Statesman can't give details), but also potentially the most effective. If done very well, it will solve the problem and result in a minimum of complaints. If done well it will solve the problem and generate some complaints. If done poorly it may not solve the problem. Much will ride on the implementation details. But it seems encouraging to me that Statesman has acknowledged the problem and intends to fix it.
edit: bah, just ignore this, was responding to an earlier post that's already been answered.
If that's the Case then I can brag that my Controller was soloing even cons in a Trial Zone at 19, Bwahhahaahaaa! And You shoulda seen what Blasters were soloing in there, OMG 
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I just completed the Envoy of Shadows story arc (level 35 - 40) last night.
There is NO WAY any AT can solo the Envoy (ArchVillian).
We had 2 Fire blasters, an energy blaster, a fire/kinetics controller and an empath defender and we still had a major battle to take this thing down. Fire imps were useless as they were slaughtered as fast as they could be put out (and this is pre-nerf). This COT Behemoth has 11,000 hit points + dark shroud + regeneration. If anyone thinks they can solo this, I'd love to hear how.
After 40 there are many more missions with ArchVillians in them. So if you want to do all of your story arcs, starting in your late 30s through level 50, you will need to put together a team.
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saying there is no way is an assumption on your part on this one. An assumption that you are incorrect about. Envoy is quite soloable by a few ATs. I can think of one off hand, until the fix with episode 2
Cheers,
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I "assume" from your post that you know the Envoy can be solo'd because you solo'd him with your illusion controller.
Just curious...was the Envoy even con to you at the time?
Also can you share some of the few other ATs you know can solo an even con Envoy?
Thanks
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Sorry, haven't checked the board all day after I posted that. Had I known Statesman was going to be in a posting frenzy I would have posted a reply sooner so it wouldn't be on page 89.
Yes, Envoy was the same level as me, so purple. Storm secondary probably makes a big difference, but I know a fire/rad who did the same. Some others have already mentioned doing the same in this thread. I think the pa nerf will make soloing him impossible now, since PA damage was pretty vital for it. I hate nerfs in general but anyone who doesn't think PA was overpowered is dreaming or playing with them wrong.
Cheers,
Statesman has said:
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Just so that I'm clear - the larger the group, the larger the spawn. The problem is not the "purple patch" - the problem is that players are approaching MOB spawns that are simply too small for their group.
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and:
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... Your groups cannot kill 55 as fast as a decent soloer can kill 12.
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Actually, they can. IF the group goes to the zones with the spawns of the appropriate size...
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I interpret these as 'it's the players fault, they should go hunt bigger spawns' (later clarified as in Trial Zones)
then:
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Why would any group take on more members than 5 when at that point you can fight every mob in the zone, hazard zone, or trial zone?
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More villains should be harder. The "herding" as you described it is a problem. I've already said this - the high level players can take on reds or purples with little to no risk. That needs to be addressed.
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Then that group can go into a zone with smaller spawns, but higher levels mobs. So a group of 8 level 30 guys could go into a hazard zone with spawns for a group of 3 to 5 - but with levels +1, +2,+3 to the group...Heck, a single +4 should be a challenge to several heroes. But it's not. That's the problem.
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coupled with:
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You're absolutely correct. The problem is, once again, that the high level players (38) can battle against foes that are much, much higher level than they are. A small group of said heroes can find a spawn appropriate for them...whereas what's tough enough for a full group of 8 level 38's? It's much, much tougher for that large group to find something that's a challenge - and can give them great XP - than it is for the the small group.
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So rather than agreeing the purple patches have limited the level of mobs that can be fought, thereby making groups restricted to +4/5 the max lvl in the group and consequently making 8 man groups pointless, it seems Statesman is proposing that Heroes should be fighting up to 3 even con minions solo and will be adjusting mob difficulty to make this so. +4 mobs should be un-soloable, rather like the original purple patch.
One example he gave was a group of 8 heroes should be fighting mobs that spawn for 3-5 players which are +1-3 lvls over them. Of course as you rarely get an 8 man team of equal levels, you'll have to find spawns that are always +1 to the highest lvl in the group, otherwise the spawns will be +4 or higher to anyone non-sk'ed to the highest level, remembering that members who are 2 levels below the highest memeber can't be SK'ed.
My feeling on these tight level restrictions will mean grouping become even less desirable unless everyone is the same level. Will the xp cap be reduced further to stop power-levelling lower levels in the group, seeing as someone 5 levels below the target mob should be getting much more xp than they could dream soloing 3 white minions?
At the end Statesman asked 'what's tough enough for a full group of 8 level 38's?' while a smaller group can find a challenge - I refer you back to my interpretation of the first 2 quotes. There needs to be bigger spawns for them and/or the purple patch modified so they can hunt higher level mobs, seeing as going for anything more than +4 is pointless at present. If you won't change the purple patch at least look at upping the spawns in some higher level zones, rather than relying on Trial zones. Maybe give the Trial zones a big xp boost as a reward for hunting there. Of couse, this will mean more xp/hour which is what a cynical person would suggest you're trying to lower.