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*sigh* I don't mean to be rude, but Statesman, it just keeps sounding like you want us to play the game your way. Not the ways we want to. Granted, some of the gameplay is rather dull and repetative, but it's the way some people want to play. Bizarre as it may sound.
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And heaven forbid anyone opens their mind to some other options besides "OMFROXXOR!!11! PURPL3 pahct is the SUXXOR1!!"
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Statesman, I really would like to hear your opinion on damgage versus support.
Damage stacks. That is, solo classes like scrappers and blasters combined can bring quick kills to a group that rakes in the exp.
Yet these classes, blasters and scrappers, also solo better than any class (save for fire tankers and fire controllers).
So these guys stack together better than any of the classes, but they also solo the best.
Why shouldn't emp defenders be the best groupers? If I could say anything in one sentence it would be that. So much is dependent upon damage in this game, well, its just outta whack. We're the only class who has a half our stuff other only.
I'm not saying defenders are useless, no. We have our role. But do you honestly think leveling a defender is the same as leveling a scrapper? I mean, come on.
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My Earth controller, arguably the worst damage dealing set out there, is at the same level as my scrapper with 70 less play hours. So I would say the leveling is faster, much faster.
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Well if he means the trial zones as a whole, and not just the trials themselves, then I'm confused again. (That seems to be happening a lot this evening). I was flying around TV, and the spawns I saw looked no different in size than Perez or Boomtown. Was I just looking in the worng spots? (I didn't scour the place or anything, just took a quick buzz around).
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Actually in Tera Volta on live I see groups of 10 freaks fighting 10 Sky Raiders, that is a group of 20 mobs. It's also not uncommon to see groups of 15 Sky Raider Lts. In Boomtown the largest group I've seen is 12.
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the problem I have is, even soloing entire groups of mobs at level 34 is still painfully slow. I've a toon in dark age I leveled from 1 to 50 without powerleveling, and I have to say I already feel like I'm in the 45ish region when I'm only 34. Most games by this point you can still crank out a level a night if you're diligent, I feel like I'm already to the point of working my *** off just for half a level, and everything I've heard from the devs points to making that even slower, and the only thing I've heard about making any xp come in faster is better mission rewards. I just don't beleive that they will be large enough though, especially when you consider just how painfully cramped most of the missions out there are and how few mobs spawn if you want to solo.
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So if leveling becomes easier, what will you when you reach 50. What will most people do?
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Heck, a single +4 should be a challenge to several heroes. But it's not. That's the problem.
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I agree, that is the problem. In-game, we talk about the scaling problem a lot. It isn't much more difficult to kill +4 minions than to kill +3.
My cocern is that if the plan is to make +4's more difficult, how is XP going to scale? Right now, you need to kill mass +4's just to get to level 40 before City of Villians comes out.
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Another word make the game easier than what it is.
Before you answer, tell me what you would do to make fighting more challenging.
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I think I did. Downgrade damage resistance so you cannot survive fighting really big groups just soaking it up and reduce AE damage so you cannot defeat big groups alone with AE damage.
The result would be that if you solo then no matter what your AT/build is then you are forced to fight small group of enemies and probably max lvl+1 or +2. If you want to fight tougher things you have to make groups.
At the same time status effects is making the game unplayable for solo'ers with AT/builds that dont have resistance to them.
But if you change the difficult of simply defeating mobs then you dont need to make _the_ difficulty of defeating them being their ability to put a status effect on you (which is what the devs are doing right now 
).
In that case downgrade status effects but make the basic combat more difficult. Its a win-win solution since it will promote both grouping and solo'ing where the difference will be the reward (better XP and action in groups, more relaxed cosy playingn solo).
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Put your group of eight together. It doesn't really matter what you put in the group with one exception. I'll get to the exception.
I will outrun them and not by a little. At level 38 we clocked it. I earned XP at a rate of 190,000 per hour solo. Go to whatever zone you like. Good luck. How about Crey's Follies? Is that hazard enough? Freaks. Carnival area by the Rikti crash site.
Then I will assemble a group of 4 and we will outrun them again.
Then I will assemble a group of 2 and we will outrun the four.
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You're absolutely correct. The problem is, once again, that the high level players (38) can battle against foes that are much, much higher level than they are. A small group of said heroes can find a spawn appropriate for them...whereas what's tough enough for a full group of 8 level 38's? It's much, much tougher for that large group to find something that's a challenge - and can give them great XP - than it is for the the small group.
That issue is next up - right after the Expansion goes live.
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In that case downgrade status effects but make the basic combat more difficult. Its a win-win solution since it will promote both grouping and soloing where the difference will be the reward (better XP and action in groups, more relaxed cosy playingn solo).
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That doesn't solve the multitude of sol o'er who dont like force grouping to level fast? they want to level fast too and dont want to group to get it.
BTW, I'm fine with the way game is now. I just want everyone to fully think out their answers
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Heck, a single +4 should be a challenge to several heroes. But it's not. That's the problem.
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I agree, that is the problem. In-game, we talk about the scaling problem a lot. It isn't much more difficult to kill +4 minions than to kill +3.
My cocern is that if the plan is to make +4's more difficult, how is XP going to scale? Right now, you need to kill mass +4's just to get to level 40 before City of Villians comes out.
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I'm curious as to how they intend to fix this without compressing the level spread in groups too far, like the initial version of the purple patch did. I'm wondering if we might be in for not only increased hp, as has been rumored, but increased damage as well.
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But if the same group were to go into a Hazard Zone, they'd find larger spawns, and reap the benefit of the group XP bonus.
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Hazard and Trial zones have a SL minimum that won't let SKs in. I convince my friend to join me and my other friends in the game, we can SK him so he can play with us, but only if we hunt in city zones where the spawns are too small for us.
If your intent is to get bigger groups to hunt in the Hazard and Trial Zones, allow SKs into them.
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That doesn't solve the multitude of sol o'er who dont like force grouping to level fast? they want to level fast too and dont want to group to get it.
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Uhm yes . . but isnt that the real problem? That is _is_ possible for some builds within some ATs to be able to completely out-XP any group of non elite builds?
IMO the perfect game is where you can solo in peace and quiet if you want to, in other word a laid back nice game experience solo. Or if you want to go for the power rush you get into increasingly big groups for more and more exitement / action and reward?
Putting more and more stun effects into the powers of mobs promotes neither of these goals.
PS: I am getting tired of hearing about how uber all blasters are. Some blaster builds dont have any kind of debuff/status effects or major AE damage and cant solo more than 3 yellows even at lvl 40+.
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That issue is next up - right after the Expansion goes live.
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I know its fine line between "god mode easy" and "yeah I feel like a super hero but its still a challenge". I dont envy your task, and the great nerfs bats that must be swung will crush many. Prepare for some major hate on the boards.
Time to roll a Mind/FF controller, they can only go up from here!
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Quote:
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*sigh* I don't mean to be rude, but Statesman, it just keeps sounding like you want us to play the game your way. Not the ways we want to. Granted, some of the gameplay is rather dull and repetative, but it's the way some people want to play. Bizarre as it may sound.
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And heaven forbid anyone opens their mind to some other options besides "OMFROXXOR!!11! PURPL3 pahct is the SUXXOR1!!"
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Heaven forbid Statesman opens his mind.
Well, the communication from Statesman is "This is how I see the game and your looking at things the wrong way."
Players "Uhm, but this is why we are right. Why are we wrong?"
Statesman "This is how I see the game should be and you are wrong and we are working to fullfill my vision."
To be honest I am surprised this post got so many posts by statesman. I wonder if he feels offended by all the posts here or if he really thinks he is right and wants to try and make us understand why he is right.
Whoops sorry Statesman. You do care! Thanks for the response and my apologies!
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You're absolutely correct. The problem is, once again, that the high level players (38) can battle against foes that are much, much higher level than they are. A small group of said heroes can find a spawn appropriate for them...whereas what's tough enough for a full group of 8 level 38's? It's much, much tougher for that large group to find something that's a challenge - and can give them great XP - than it is for the the small group.
That issue is next up - right after the Expansion goes live.
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However, if you fight some spawns on the way - and finish the mission with the new XP rewards - I think you'll find that missions are much, much more competitive XP wise.
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One thing I missed earlier.
Are missions going to occur in the same zone as the contact? Otherwise, it's pretty unlikely you'll be able to hunt your way to the mission.
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Time to roll a Mind/FF controller, they can only go up from here!
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LOL just wait until the "FF is Uber I can't group without one" posts you're going to see if +4's really, really are hard.
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Secondly, now your just being obtuse. What "penalty" has been described in 4 or 5 posts now.
Here are the cliff notes. The xp gained per mob defeated goes down as you add players. At 4 players, you have capped the difficulty of mobs you can face (+4 your level) and have found the largest concentration of mobs you can face. THE XP LOST DUE TO ADDITIONAL PLAYERS CAN NO LONGER BE MADE UP BY FIGHTING HIGHER LEVEL MOBS OR MORE MOBS BECAUSE OF THE PURPLE PATCH
You know damn well what the penalty is, you are responsible for it. Even though I disagree with the vast majority of your 'Vision' for CoH, I never thought you were unable to see past it. If you cannot grasp the difference between what you see on paper in front of you versus how it actually plays out in the game, CoH is doomed to your 'Vision'.
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Well, first of all the limit is really more +5 if you are in a large group rather than +4. You can still earn more xp at +5 than +4 (although you probably are capitated somewhat) and you can probably take down +5. Its slow in small groups which is why people don't do it, but large groups might be able to speed it up enough to be worth it.
Which is the other point. The factor you are ignoring is time. Unless every single hero can one-shot every single mob, more heros can speed up xp if the larger group can take the spawn down quicker. I've actually seen the fifth man improve xp rate, and sometimes reduce the xp rate. Unless you are an xp-maxer, and are in an extremely optimized group, it is difficult to tell whether the incremental addition of another player will make a team of 4 better or worse, from a purely xp/hour perspective.
But I can say with absolute certainty that there is no "4 man pivot point" in team xp, period. It is much more blurry than that, except again, in extremely optimized conditions.
Add me to your group of 4, though, and xp/hour definitely takes a hit. Even with all the novas, I tend to be chatty on team channel 
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Well, States, if you chucked the purple patch, it'd work itself out.
Groups of 8 would go find level +7 and level +8 spawns and go back to challenging, rewarding, good risk=reward mobs.
Soloing would remain viable, but it wouldnt be the ONLY option.
Tough, but fun and challenging content would not be limited, then to the respec trial. Oh, and you could group outside the +2 to -2 spread, also, and open the game up to ones friends without needing to sidekick everyone and their mother.
In short, the purple patch sucks, its artficial, and it isnt fun. If your vision is more important than the games fun factor, I think we might need to take a step back.
Good fixes on Tankers, why not a good fix for groups like the good tanker fix?
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Oh - and one other thing. The vast, vast majority of players at any given time are on missions. XP or not - it's the most popular part of the game.
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Which means the vast, vast majority of players at any given time are getting crappy XP which detracts from their enjoyment of the game. They would like it better if the part of the game they enjoyed also rewarded them well enough to make everyone happy.
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My friends and I do dozens of missions together, without even noticing the specific amounts of exp we are earning for the different mobs. Why? Because we are playing together as heros and having fun. Your rant was quite good until this last comment which shows your true colors as a powerleveling junky, who's lust for exp overshadows anything else. I truly pity you.
What disturbs me about what I'm reading is that I'm not going to get tougher in a relative sense once you change things.
With my scrapper it used to be at low levels I took out 3 whites with work. Then in my teens I became pretty comfortable at it. In my 20s large groups of lower levels or a few +1/+2s became no problem.
Why can't we just have a great spawn of lieutenants and bosses in the mix? I want my upper level guy to be like established comic characters - any group of minions is pretty much fodder, but the lietenants and bosses can get me if I'm not careful, and the Arch Villains (Doom baby!) ... uh, get a group! :-)
-Jeff
Statesman, how will the xp scale with these changes? Will we still be able to maintain the same leveling rate with these proposed increases to difficulty?
Statesman, I'm all for upping the challenge (and hopefully, fun) of the higher-level game. However, I hear talk about how fights will last longer, etc. etc. Is it your intent to increase the time required to level? I hope not. I find it to be a little on the slow side (at 36 it is about 12 - 15 hours). Rather than making it difficult through more time I hope you are considering keeping the time constant and making the time we do spend more fun! Keep in mind that not everyone is grinding CoT portal missions or herding. 
Hehe, didn't see Suid_Afrika's post before I posted -- that's exactly (and more succinctly) what I was trying to express!
Check out the post that Statesman made to the Tankers. I have complained alot about the Cryptic responses we have gotten from the Devs but this one really blew me away by how concise and straight forward it was. Plus, there was a bit of depth that let you see that they really were listening to our posts. I feel so appreciated right now that I just want cry at how good this response was.
Keep up the great replies Statesman! At least once every two weeks. This post was awesome. Its not just hope its down right inspireing. I just can't say enough.
Here is the link to his Statement that I am gushing over!
I don't even play a tanker regularly and I am excited about this.
Tanker post from the Dev!
After spending the past hour reading this entire thread, and thinking long and hard about Statesman's responses I have come to a conclusion....
He doesn't play this game.
I don't know what game he's playing, but it is my opinion it isn't the same one I'm in. There are too many points he tries to make that are refutable, and FAR too many things that are outright untrue. The whole "You need to kill mobs on the way to the missions, and count those then you'll be making good mission XP" (paraphrased) is hogwash.
That is just one example. This is my opinion. Flame me if you want, but Jack, c'mon....play on Justice w/ My SG and we'll be happy to show you the way players actually play the game...not the way you "think, or wish" that we play. You make too many assumptions based on numbers and data, and almost NOTHING based on playtime. I know your time is limited so I recommend hiring someone to play...just to play...and give you a better view. When they tell you "Look Jack, I don't care what your numbers say my Defender can't get a pick up group and has been lvl 17 for 8 days" then you MIGHT see the light. Until then...thanks for the posts. Honestly, thanks.
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the problem I have is, even soloing entire groups of mobs at level 34 is still painfully slow. I've a toon in dark age I leveled from 1 to 50 without powerleveling, and I have to say I already feel like I'm in the 45ish region when I'm only 34. Most games by this point you can still crank out a level a night if you're diligent, I feel like I'm already to the point of working my *** off just for half a level, and everything I've heard from the devs points to making that even slower, and the only thing I've heard about making any xp come in faster is better mission rewards. I just don't beleive that they will be large enough though, especially when you consider just how painfully cramped most of the missions out there are and how few mobs spawn if you want to solo.