[ QUOTE ]
I assume it's done this way for several reasons. For one, it keeps the server load to a minimum. Having a mission automatically create and keep track of hundreds of mobs as soon as you enter would cause the server to slow to a crawl. (Multiply that by 100's of missions and you have a problem with servers crashing constantly.) Another good (depending upon your point of view) reason would be to prevent single heroes from creating a 3 or 4 person team so that a mission spawned the appropriate number of mobs for that team, and then having the other players leave so that he/she could solo a much more difficult mission for more xp. (Hopefully the promised mission difficulty sliders will address this.)
(Devs: feel free to jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Uhmm....interesting theory, I'm kind of curious about this too. Although I can think of better ways of keeping server load down without having to worry about spawn dynamics. I.E. seed the mission database with the spawn requirments when the mission is loaded but don't actually load the mobs till they're needed, similar to what you said, but each spawn point would still use the original seed numbers. *shrug*
While I'll concede the possiblilty that this was a bad example on my part, it still doesn't change the notion that a group of more than 4 people (on average) is going to be more efficiant at any given task then a group of 8 doing the same task.
Statesman,
There are many many great posts here that I feel sum up the games shortcommings pretty well. Don't get me wrong I enjoy this game very much. You elude that the purple patch has nothing to do with these issues but I respectfully disagree. Please try to keep an open mind and take a look again at the purple patch because for me it's pretty cut and dry. Before the pruple patch I found group play to be 100% more fun. The purple patch has changed my solo game 0%. Is it just a cooincidence group play took a fun dive when the purple patch was introduced? Also I would appreciate if you could respond to the questions of the only good large group hunting areas (hazzard zones) only being available to groups without sk's which in a group of 8 is rare. I'm not saying the purple patch needs to be removed but there are better ways of dealing with the problems the purple patch was meant to fix without hurting groups.
[ QUOTE ]
Just a comment on the missions and hunting along the way. About half of the missions I am getting at level 28-29 are in Kings Row, Steel Canyon, or Skyway City.
[/ QUOTE ]
That aside, has anyone pointed out that this is just poorly guised encouragement to do less missions and more street sweeping? People who run straight from thier contact to the mission door are the ones who don't want to street sweep.
I do some of both, killing mobs around my contacts and such, and yes, it helps bridge the gap to the next five level step in contacts, but it doesn't make mission xp look any better. It's just supplementing the weak mission xp with the street grind. Plus, after level 30, it barely helped, I still ran out of contacts way too fast.
[ QUOTE ]
To Statesman: If you want players to stick with the game, then make it fun to play. Make the goals (which we need many more of) reachable. Give us the opportunity and freedom to experience the game the way that WE want to experience it, and stop trying to force us into your "vision". Let us (all ATs) be heroes. This isn't a tabletop PnP roleplaying game. You're not a Dungeon Master.
[/ QUOTE ]
These posts always confuse me. It's like going to Volvo and saying; "You know, your cars are great and all, but unless you sell me one of these (describes a Porche Boxer) I'm going somewhere else!"
In fact he IS the 'Dungeon Master'.
This is the game he's building and he has certain goals in mind. IF it's not the game you want, then certainly making suggestions for things you'd like to see, within the framwork of what exsists, are valid, but to tell the guy he's built/building the wrong game is just, uhmm....wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
These posts always confuse me. It's like going to Volvo and saying; "You know, your cars are great and all, but unless you sell me one of these (describes a Porche Boxer) I'm going somewhere else!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Which wouldn't happen nearly so often, if CoH weren't advertised as that "Porche" in the first place. It's what attracted many of us, and we wouldn't be here to complain about the changes otherwise.
Great thread ... Fantastic Dev input and insight into the things to come and the motives behind them.
But I have to say either people just aren't getting it, or they aren't trying to get it.
Does anyone actually use the Dev Tracker and read (comprehend) what they are saying ???
By this statement:
[ QUOTE ]
...but here lately it's like you've completely lost touch with the reality of the game, and somehow channeled yourself into this narrow vision of what's going on..and well..your vision and reality don't match.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say the answer is no. Because if people used the Dev Tracker they would know that ...
1) The VAST majority of players play missions and don't hunt.
2) Less than 1% of the players post in the forums.
So who would have access to the "reality" of the game ??? People who post ??? Or people who have access to the datamining results on play statistics ... And since mission experience is getting upped, it seems to me that the Devs are adderssing the majority in Issue 2.
From this thread alone there's enough information from Statesman, that if one were to put it all together, they'd see that the changes that will be coming after Issue 2 goes live, will address both difficulty and experience gain for grouping as well.
The answer isn't allowing groups of 8 to take out packs of +10 level Mobs (purple patch rollback, which everyone seems overly fixated on - for obvious reason), but in making +1 to +4 Mobs tougher and ... Wait for it ... MORE rewarding to groups.
This is completly consistant and logical with the game's mechanics.
If you are level 20 ... Could 8 level 10s take you down ??? Not in a million years (unless you were afk for about 30 minutes). Heck ... Could 8 level 16s take you down ???
So why would you expect that 8 level 20s could take down ONE level 30 ??? Let alone a pack of them ...
I'd say ... If a group of 8 heros can take out 1 +10 Mob, then a pack of 8 -10 mobs, should be able to take out 1 hero.
What ... You don't like that idea ??? Hmmm ... Wonder why.
Well ... Statesman has said it ... 1 Hero = 3 Minions (white con) ... I would think that means 1.5 lts (yellow con) ... Which would mean more or less 1 boss (orange con). Or there abouts ...
So 8 heros should be able to deal with a pack of 8 +3 minions (orange) pretty easy, add in a couple lts (red) to make a challenge, and a boss (purple) to make it pretty tough. Increase everything to a +4 and everything should scale up in difficulty.
When you are level 2 out of Outbreak and you get that first mission in a warehouse in Atlas and have to run through a pack of level 6s to get there ... You go around don't you, because just 1 level 6 is more than you can handle at level 2 ... Why should that change at level 30 ???
Now I'm assuming that your experience will increase proportional to the challenge (something Statesman hasn't specifically said yet), but if that's the case ... Then what does it matter if the purple is deep purple or light purple ... Purple is about undoable for a single hero. So how can a group of heros take an equal sized group of purples ???
Well ... That's how I look at it.
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Which wouldn't happen nearly so often, if CoH weren't advertised as that "Porche" in the first place. It's what attracted many of us, and we wouldn't be here to complain about the changes otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thing is, from my (admitedly subjective experiance,) it seems that I'm playing a very different game then some of the more vocal here are. I'm still seeing the thing that was advertised.
It may not be the colour I want, but it's certainly the car I expected. (How's that for streatching a metiphore? 
)
[ QUOTE ]
Thing is, from my (admitedly subjective experiance,) it seems that I'm playing a very different game then some of the more vocal here are. I'm still seeing the thing that was advertised.
It may not be the colour I want, but it's certainly the car I expected. (How's that for streatching a metiphore? )
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know, are you even talking about soloability, here?
So...if I'm meant to be able to handle 3 mobs at a time, and the fights are going to last longer...does that mean it'll take 3x as long to get each level as it does now?
I'm already losing the feeling of progress here in the 30's, if it's 3x as slow...wow, that'll hurt.
Even pre purple patch I think we were only fighting stuff that was +5 or maybe +6. difference was you could all hit and do decent damage and not such a whifffest. Everybody could still feel like a hero in a group with a level spread of 3. Now once you pass the magical +4 limit, the low end of your team becomes leeches. I admit I'm more caught up in expanding level curves as opposed upgrading ememies cause it's easier to fix. Guess you tend to remember the good times. In the end I think adjusting ememies will also work but I'm scared of the growing pains and other side effects that will emerge. Guess I'm saying that the solo cap should be +4 and the group cap at +6 but this doesn't solve the problem of the mid game being too easy. I guess it's unavoidable that we are gonna have to go down the road of making ememies harder. I'm sure *cough cough* they will make them more rewarding to compensate for the additional time spent.
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Statesman, im not sure if this has been bough up already but there is one major flaw in group xp that I personally hate. That is, the highest level person in group usually gets horriable xp. When doing the brickstown TF. I gained half my level when I was 31/32, when I was 34/35, I gained little over a bar.....thats about 3 times less xp if you are the highest lvl in group as opposed to people 3-4 levels below you. How is that fair to the high levels that preety much carry the groups anyways? Unless the amount of xp you must gain doubles every level, you cant possibly tell me that xp in groups is scaling fairly to everyone.
This is one of the prime reasons that offset me about grouping, I usually dont group unless I AM one of the lower level guys, even cons give crap xp.
So can you please consider re-doing the group xp equation so it calculates everyone that is in group and distributes xp accordingly? I really think that fixing the xp given to higher level players in groups will go a long way into fixing the game and will also encourage people to SK too instead of leeching.
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This is IMO why most scrappers and blasters will prefer to solo. It isnt just that group xp isnt very good, when these 2 ATs are in a group they are *expected* to be among the highest level characters in the group and if they are not they are *expected* to accept the highest sk possible.
The result is that the best solo builds are also the builds that get the worst xp in groups. The net result is that many avoid groups like the plague. It also creates an exaggerated impression about how large the disparity between solo and group xp is.
I like the idea that there is a catch up factor. It helps keep people who play together regularly around the same level, but maybe it should be reduced to help damage dealing ATs/builds feel less like they are being used by the rest of the group.
[ QUOTE ]
You're absolutely correct. The problem is, once again, that the high level players (38) can battle against foes that are much, much higher level than they are. A small group of said heroes can find a spawn appropriate for them...whereas what's tough enough for a full group of 8 level 38's? It's much, much tougher for that large group to find something that's a challenge - and can give them great XP - than it is for the the small group.
That issue is next up - right after the Expansion goes live.
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Hey States, I don't know how many more times you can possibly say you're looking into make higher level mobs more challenging or that you should head to specific zones for higher numbers in your group before you throw your monitor out the window.
I've got a pool running and my bet is 18. You're only on number 11. If you make it 18, I'll split the donut with you. 
Statesman, its your game, I can't believe some of things you are
saying. You talk about the 4-person limit as if you've never
heard about it. Do you even read these boards or have anyone who
does? Its pretty common knowledge among the power gamers that
more than 4 people suck, and why. Hell even just regular people,
not powergamers, instinctively know that when the team gets too
big, their exp bar stops moving. This is just one example of you
guys not really being in touch with the game as it as actually
played, and explains a lot of the stupid changes you are making
recently like the purple patch or the controller pet mega-nerf. I
am absolutely petrified that your changes to villian difficulty
that you keep talking about are entirely theoretical and will be
utterly catastrophic to the game as it is actually played. I
expect the uproar to make the purple patch look like 'the good
ole days'.
Street sweeping people already fight the toughest packs they come
across. The zones have lots of people running around crossing
paths, who knows what spawned any particular pack. Probably some
guy running to and from his mission. It doesn't matter, you fight
every pack you come across. And they just aren't tough enough to
warrent teams more than 4. And even then its only because you
like to group or you were unfortunate enough to pick a
non-soloing class because you'd be doing much better soloing with
a good build. And here is a clue about soloing: saying
controller's 'can solo' because they can technically arrest mobs
eventually is so far from reality, I can't believe you'd actually
say it. Everyone knows that 'can solo' means 'can solo at a
reasonable rate'. Five to Ten times slower than a good soloer
does not qualify as 'being able to solo'. And its just cruel that
the classes that cannot solo are also the ones not particularly
desired for groups. Even groups that need them only need one. You
only need one tank to tank or one controller to hold. Either one
will do, you don't need one of each, you don't need more than
one. However, the more blasters you get the better you are off.
That's assuming they aren't off soloing to get the best exp they
can.
As for trial zones, no one is there. You seem to think that
'most' players are just in the game for fun not exp. If that was
true, people would be crawling over the trial zones. They are
not. Just about everyone wants their exp bar to at least move.
There is a reason people 40+ grind on Nemesis now. Trial zones
are filled with mobs with status effect. Rikti Crash Site is a
perfect example. Status effects are not fun. People don't like
being unable to do anything from being held/slept/stunned. And
they definitely don't like dying from the same. Those effects are
fine for a player to use on mobs, mobs don't 'care' if they
aren't having fun. Players do. No one is going to try to get just
the exact team composition to go take these mobs when they can
just tackle easier mobs, for better exp, and have more fun just
being a superhero and kicking butt. But all the changes you
mention are pure nerfs, make everything harder, slower, force
particular group compositions. Here is the bottom line: Help the
underpowered classes, don't cripple the more powerful ones. And
the mobs are fine in power, they don't need to be beefed up, just
get rid of the stupid purple patch. There are already
suitably-challenging mobs to fight. They are called deep purples.
Once again your 'vision' conflicts with the game. People like
being superheroes, kicking butt, taking names. But no. You 'never
wanted' people to be able to fight mobs more than a couple levels
above you, and based on the status effects that more and more
mobs have, apparently you don't want people to be superheroes
anymore but rather scared chickens afraid that if they don't do
every fight exactly right, one status effect gets through and
BAM! Another trip to the hospital. People don't like this. When
you need to get 4050 even-con minions just to level, at the very
least you want to grind through those mobs quickly and
efficiently. Its tedious enough now with the sheer numbers you
have to kill, I don't think people want every fight to be
'challenging' (read: even more tedious and unfun due to status
effects.) They want to group up so they can kick more and tougher
mobs, feel more like real superheroes, not like a bunch of wimps
in which the random gang members roaming the streets are all the
ones who should be the superheroes.
Even if you change the Trial Zones so that they are not a
pain to grind in, lots of people will move in, and once again
your spawns will be spawned by other people running around not
you determining their size. Just go to any zone worth exping in.
You can't find your own little corner to spawn mobs from your
group. That just doesn't happen. The game as it is actually
played inherently limits the size of the spawns regardless of
whatever code you think is in there to base it to the group. If
you actually played the game, you would know that in any zone
worth being in, the vast majority of spawns you fight were
spawned by someone else, not by your group. Its just one more
reason mission suck. They send you all over the world, so you
have lots and lots of soloers spawning mobs as they pass by going
to and from the missions as small spawns.
All the changes you hint at suggest one thing: not making
grouping any better but instead making soloing harder to
indirectly make grouping more attractive. Here's a clue for you:
people solo because it is the only way to get decent exp. Group
exp sucks. You state all these reasons on paper why it shouldn't,
but just go actually play the game. It does. Now you want to make
solo exp suck just as much?
I mean, you say you want to make it so that one hero is worth 3
minions? You do realize it takes _4050_ minions to make a level
in the 40s, right? And adjusting villian exp doesn't count. Its
obvious you always wanted 3 minions equalling 1 hero it just
didn't work out, so the 4050 even-cons per level is based on what
you actually wanted, meaning you really do want the sickeningly
high amount of time per level. You've said before that the time
per level is where you wanted, obviously talking about the
average person who can take 20+ hours per level. Most of these
players have yet to reach the 30s and 40s so they don't know how
bad it will be. When they do, lots of people will quit. If you
think people are going to put up with 20+ hours a level, you are
sadly mistaken. People already think exp is too slow for anyone
who does not have a powerleveling build, and many of these
comments come from people only in the high teens or 20s. If they
think it is bad then...
Everything you say sounds like your intent is to cripple power
builds so everyone has to suck up many hours a level. That would
be unacceptable if you get a ton of new abilities each level,
when two out of three levels you get 3 enhancement slots only, it
is unthinkable. No way are people going to play the insane amount
of time. Why do you think so many people make Blasters? They are
sick of the ridiculous grind. Every 3 levels you basically get
one new power fully slotted. And post-38 you have no new powers
to get, just ones you found were less important so you put them
off. Many builds in the 40s are just picking up something random
because nothing left is really at all useful, and they have to
choose a power. The game is just not worth the ridiculous grind
you are setting it up to be (not that it already isn't a
ridiculous grind for non-power builds.) A new fully-slotted power
every 20 hours? Ok. One every 60 hours? No way. One every 60
hours that is not at all exciting, just something you picked up
because it was the least sucky thing left? Not a chance.
The last thought is regard to your comment on status effects and
inspirations. Here is a clue about those inspirations: they don't
work. For my blaster, I've popped a level 3 Strength of Will-type
inspiration and still been held by the first shot on a Knive of
Artemis boss. And not just once, or just to them. Consistently,
any boss cuts through these inspirations. Not that I have a whole
lot of experience since they drop so little. Even if they did
work, when every spawn of certain villian groups has a status
effector in it (such as Rikti), having to have an inspiration for
every fight is unsurmountable. So the game is fun by running to
contacts every 10 minutes to buy all new inspirations because you
are paralyzed without? If they don't work 100%, they are
pointless. If the holds go through your protection, you die. No
one is going to grind on any mob in which there is any risk of
more than the occassional death. Exp is already far too slow to
suck up more exp debt. Powerlevelers don't die much. Regular
people do. And there are tons of complaints on your boards about
it. There is a reason powerlevelers choose mobs without status
effects. But given the choice, so does everyone else. They are
just unfun. And when it already takes ridiculous amount of time
to level when you don't have a power build, anything more than
the rare occassional death is just rubbing salt into the wound.
Its good that you communicate, but the more I read from you, the
more I believe you just don't get it. "To hell with the players
and their fun, our vision is more important than people actually
enjoying the game!" you seem to be saying. There is a reason so
many people hate Sony over EQ. Its the reason I won't be playing
EQ2. And, unfortunately, if things keep going the way they seem,
its the reason I won't be playing COH much longer.
I couldn't agree more with RSRobinson's post.
Listen to him Statesman...he makes sense from a player's perspective.
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman,
There are many many great posts here that I feel sum up the games shortcommings pretty well. Don't get me wrong I enjoy this game very much. You elude that the purple patch has nothing to do with these issues but I respectfully disagree. Please try to keep an open mind and take a look again at the purple patch because for me it's pretty cut and dry. Before the pruple patch I found group play to be 100% more fun. The purple patch has changed my solo game 0%. Is it just a cooincidence group play took a fun dive when the purple patch was introduced? Also I would appreciate if you could respond to the questions of the only good large group hunting areas (hazzard zones) only being available to groups without sk's which in a group of 8 is rare. I'm not saying the purple patch needs to be removed but there are better ways of dealing with the problems the purple patch was meant to fix without hurting groups.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh I just dont get why people keep bringing up the purple patch. Statesman has indicated the direction is which he wants to go and it clearly address everything that removing the purple patch does and doesnt unbalance the games content in the process.
To put this another way, if the fight is the same difficulty, what does it matter to you if the mobs are +10 and con as purple or +4 and con as red? ([Edit], I know I know +4 cons as purple but this was just an example and I wanted to differentiate the colors sue me [/Edit]) In either case the devs need to tune the xp rewards so people are advancing at an acceptable rate, so that never enters into it.
The only difference is that with his fix you dont end up cramming all the content that was supposed to hold you to L35 into the first 25 levels. If you roll back the purple patch, (And allow those levels into the hazard and trial zones so they can fight the mobs there before they drop below purple) here is what happens to the games content.
By level 25-30 you have explored any zone that spawns mobs in the 30-40 range. Pre issue 2 this includes Atlas, Kings row, Steel, skyway, Perez, Boomtown, Tera Volta, Dark Astoria, Brickston, Talos, Founders Falls, Eden, the sewers and the abandoned sewers.
This leaves you with the following zones to hold you over for the next 20 25 levels. (Far more then half the game.) PI, the Rikti crash site and the Hive. See the problem here?
One of the biggest problems in this game after level 30 is that you have already explored most of the zones, or at lest had the opportunity to. The reality is that you couldnt come close to experiencing them all before you out leveled them and are now relegated to spending the remaining 2/3 of your total game time in a tiny number of zones.
So, there are 2 ways to go roll back the purple patch and develop massive amounts of new content for the people above level 30, or simply make the mobs close to your own level challenging and rewarding.
Excellent post , couldnt have said it any better.
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But I have to say either people just aren't getting it, or they aren't trying to get it.
[/ QUOTE ]
They aren't trying.
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I don't know, are you even talking about soloability, here?
[/ QUOTE ]
Soloability and group play both.
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This is closer to the spirit of my statement - but the crux here is "decent rate of speed." Some Archetypes do it faster than others. Controllers, and to a degree Defenders & Tankers, solo slowly. That's totally acceptable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Totally acceptable? To whom? Not the players.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be more precise, you should have said "some players", it's totally acceptable to me and the people I play with. Yes, we do play controllers, defenders, and tanks.
[ QUOTE ]
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Couple that with the enormous penalty for grouping beyond the 4rth person and you just don't see large teams anymore.
[/ QUOTE ]
Penalty for more than 4 people? Certainly not XP wise; players get an XP bonus for having larger and larger groups. What are you referring to?
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman, they are telling the truth. I run Hero Logger that tracks my exp rate as I like to optimize my leveling. The most optimal exp rates are always soloing or a 4 person balanced team.
To give you average numbers I was able to see. Lets say I can get 100,000 exp/hour soloing. With a 2 person team where both members independently fight different groups I can get about 120k/hour because the kill rate smooths out. If I have a group of 4 people that independently go out and kill my exp rate will drop from 100k/hour to 90k/hour.
The numbers I have seen in an 4 person group that fights together is about 70k but less risk.
If I have a full 8 people in the group I am lucky if I can see 50k/hour.
They are correct Statesman. Hero Logger gave me hard fast numbers showing me that large groups are not optimal and drags exp to a crawl. I have over 1000 hours in playing this game and using Hero Logger to optimize risk/rewards verus a theoretical exp curve that Cryptic thinks scales well but in truth it really doesn't.
Risk/reward balances best at a 4 person team.
[ QUOTE ]
The numbers I have seen in an 4 person group that fights together is about 70k but less risk.
If I have a full 8 people in the group I am lucky if I can see 50k/hour.
[/ QUOTE ]
You still dont get what he was telling you. Your 4 person balanced team was fighting mobs intended balanced teams of 8 a level or two higher then you. This leaves no place for that team of 8 to hunt.
What he intends to do is make everything more difficult after level 22 so that you 4 player team cant take down those mobs and needs to find smaller spawns of lower level mobs. You now have plenty of headroom to form a team of 8 and take on those more difficult spawns and get more total xp to divide among your team member. If done correctly, this, along with the group xp bonus will increase the xp of participating in a larger group past that of a smaller group provided you hunt in zones where the spawn size is appropriate.
If executed properly his solution will work and is IMO superior to any other option. The only thing it is lacking is a way to deal with the fact that larger teams almost always have some sidekicks that cant enter the hazard or trial zones where the right spawns are found.
[ QUOTE ]
Great thread ... Fantastic Dev input and insight into the things to come and the motives behind them.
But I have to say either people just aren't getting it, or they aren't trying to get it.
[/ QUOTE ]
No..I get it all too well..the question is..do you? Let's continue and see...
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone actually use the Dev Tracker and read (comprehend) what they are saying ???
By this statement:
[ QUOTE ]
...but here lately it's like you've completely lost touch with the reality of the game, and somehow channeled yourself into this narrow vision of what's going on..and well..your vision and reality don't match.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say the answer is no. Because if people used the Dev Tracker they would know that ..
1) The VAST majority of players play missions and don't hunt.
2) Less than 1% of the players post in the forums.
So who would have access to the "reality" of the game ??? People who post ??? Or people who have access to the datamining results on play statistics ... And since mission experience is getting upped, it seems to me that the Devs are adderssing the majority in Issue 2.
[/ QUOTE ]
By this logic you could say that any MMO manufacturer has the most sense of reality with their game..and it isn't so. It's not got to do with people who post on forums..and datamining isn't the be all end all way to determine a situation. Datamining is a statistical indication. And if you have paid attention in statistics class, you know statistics can be made to prove or disprove almost anything. Short form: Datamining has it's flaws, and is almost 100% certainly not infallible. Does anyone remember the Shamans and Alchemy from EQ? "Working as intended." Uhh..
Insofar as addressing mission XP....sure it's a give with one hand, take away with the other hand situation. Have you heard about the Oranbega missions with the portal section in them yet? Use your vaunted Dev Tracker and go check THAT out.
[ QUOTE ]
From this thread alone there's enough information from Statesman, that if one were to put it all together, they'd see that the changes that will be coming after Issue 2 goes live, will address both difficulty and experience gain for grouping as well.
The answer isn't allowing groups of 8 to take out packs of +10 level Mobs (purple patch rollback, which everyone seems overly fixated on - for obvious reason), but in making +1 to +4 Mobs tougher and ... Wait for it ... MORE rewarding to groups.
This is completly consistant and logical with the game's mechanics.
If you are level 20 ... Could 8 level 10s take you down ??? Not in a million years (unless you were afk for about 30 minutes). Heck ... Could 8 level 16s take you down ???
[/ QUOTE ]
Being chain mezzed is not fun, not even vaguely pleasant. I'm assuming that you have never had this occur, so you're without concept of the situation. Also..to forestall the inevitable..it can happen in solo missions with white con or +1 mobs..rendering the Hero in debt. Now as I recall..with the exceptions of AVs or Bosses..a person was supposed to be able to enjoy CoH by logging on, doing a mission or two with what time they had free, then logging off as RL dictated. That scenario is either in the process of becoming no longer possible, or is well gone already. Ask EQ refugees how long they shouted for teams in Sebilis, or how long it took them to actually make any progression..in real time. If you compare the two you suddenly begin to see a uncanny resemblance..no longer can you hop in CoH, blast bad guys for a couple hours..and hop out. Now you have ot allocate more time..hop in..find a team, get to mission, kill that super hard boss or AV that's popped up..and then if you have any time left..try to recover some of the debt you may/may not have incurred while doing the aforementioned mission. This smacks GREATLY of going to Sebilis to try to work through a hell level on a regular evening.
[ QUOTE ]
So why would you expect that 8 level 20s could take down ONE level 30 ??? Let alone a pack of them ...
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Statesman's a big comic book fan..I'd say the reason why, by his definition, is through teamwork..like the Avengers or X-Men or Fantastic Four display. Makes perfect sense to me. Now a group of 20s versus a group of 30s? No. A group of 20s against -1- 30? Fairly difficult, but yes. Fighting +1 mobs to level a character from 1-50 is a sure fire way to send the fun out the window.
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I'd say ... If a group of 8 heros can take out 1 +10 Mob, then a pack of 8 -10 mobs, should be able to take out 1 hero.
What ... You don't like that idea ??? Hmmm ... Wonder why.
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Because I pay $15 a month to play CoH. The mobs don't. Because MMOs are intrinsically made with the premise of winning. No one plays to lose, and no one sure as hell pays to play to lose. That's bedrock bottom common sense.
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Well ... Statesman has said it ... 1 Hero = 3 Minions (white con) ... I would think that means 1.5 lts (yellow con) ... Which would mean more or less 1 boss (orange con). Or there abouts ...
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Statesman may have said it, but that doesn't mean it's so. In fact I'm going to say 1 hero = 3 Minions is completely incorrect. And Statesman if you want proof and are reading this, I'll be glad to hop on Victory server, log in the character and prove it to you. More-over I'll give you names of other people with the same primary/secondary powerset, and let you chat up their experience with them. You want evidence? I can give you incontrovertable evidence to the contrary on that assumption. In fact the person who I'd recommend has said it point blank once, since he and his girlfriend play CoH. "She does ALL the killing..and I mean all of it..I can't kill _anything_ on my own..." You know..he's right. That AT and build does less damage than a equal level Tanker to a even con mob. In fact...3 of those Minions versus this build would be sure death. Bottom line? I can say I'm Bill Gates..but it doesn't mean it's so. Just cause a red-letter name says it, doesn't mean it's so either..regardless of whether it's Statesman or not.
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So 8 heros should be able to deal with a pack of 8 +3 minions (orange) pretty easy, add in a couple lts (red) to make a challenge, and a boss (purple) to make it pretty tough. Increase everything to a +4 and everything should scale up in difficulty.
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That's fine provided all powersets scale up in damage to compensate. Otherwise it's a ridiculous notion, I'm sorry.
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When you are level 2 out of Outbreak and you get that first mission in a warehouse in Atlas and have to run through a pack of level 6s to get there ... You go around don't you, because just 1 level 6 is more than you can handle at level 2 ... Why should that change at level 30 ???
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Flawed logic here. I'm going to explain why it's flawed so you can sort of see where your discrepancies are. At level 2...you have 2 powers..all of 2 powers to your name, outside the common shared pool (Brawl, Quick, etc). At level 30 you have a considerable powerbase, with abilities from your primary and secondary powersets, and power pools thrown in as well. Then there's undoubtedly wisdom gained longterm in how those powers work, what combinations to use them for the most effectiveness, and some planning in how they are slotted. The reason it's different is because at 30, you are now given the tools to adequately handle the situation, you have the experience in how to use those tools, and those tools are tuned to your individual style of utilization...whereas at 2 you simply were not.
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Now I'm assuming that your experience will increase proportional to the challenge (something Statesman hasn't specifically said yet), but if that's the case ... Then what does it matter if the purple is deep purple or light purple ... Purple is about undoable for a single hero. So how can a group of heros take an equal sized group of purples ???
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Through strong teamwork, utilization of --each-- character's full potential in their respective builds, and prebattle preparation.
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Well ... That's how I look at it.
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That's fine...I think your opinion is lacking severely in several areas, but you are nonetheless entitled to it. Likewise you are perfectly entitled to think the same about mine. I urge you tho'..to consider my rebuttal. Ask questions of people, EQ refugees..study the powersets in action...query people with various builds how hard it is to solo even cons..the truth is not in what is written here by the red-letter names so much as it is in what the average player you have never met who is one build or another will tell you about their experience.
I like two suggestions made, change the level cap on hazard zones, and on missions, scale the level of the mission to highest lev hero.
I think our group has 1-3 sks everytime, new friends added all the time. I think I heard of reverse sking is coming, which would help because no one ever wants to do the low lev missions because of the no xp.
No cap on hazards would be great because when we usually have a big group, it contains those skers mentioned. From what I read, if you have a big group we really should be in a hazard zone to battle.
Casual gamer and having fun.
"if I am guilty for what goes on in my mind, than give me the electric chair for all my future crimes"
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And this is a great goal, I want to see this happen. But right now the current trend is in introducing status effects. At level 10 there where very few mobs with status effects, the occasional Edilon or Lost Blaster. By 40 it seems the only challenge is chain stunning or holding mobs and well that is not what many people consider to be a fun challenge.
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No - the Status effects are not meant to be the way that things get "harder" in the overall sense. The current changes to Rikti and Nemesis bring them into line with the difficulty of other groups (Malta, Carnival). So now all groups are of equal difficulty (that's the goal!).
Now the Inspirations and powers that protect oneself from stunning, etc. are very, very needed. And that's a good thing. Tackle the high level groups without preparation and a hero is in deep trouble - quickly.
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Ok.. I haven't gotten through the rest of this thread, but this is what ticks me off. You can be as prepared as all get-out, and STILL get into deep trouble, quickly.
For a tanker, if you want to avoid being affected by status effect powers, you *have* to use Unyielding stance, or some other rooted power. (Yeah, you can use inspirations, but they're just not nearly as good, for one thing, and they're not always sitting in your tray, and they quit working at unpredictable times. Yeah, I could probably use a stopwatch, and figure out how long they last, but heck, I'm too busy in the middle of combat to keep up with *that* much detail. And, if I tried, the game would quit being fun, and start being work.)
So, you're rooted. And what do *WAAAAAAAY* too many enemies with these status effect powers do? They stay out of melee range. And then there's the type that leech endurance from you at range, so you're *really* screwed. You can't drop your rooted status-defense power, or you'll be down faster than you can say "kiss the floor." You can't hit them, because you don't have any ranged attacks. You can't chase them, because you don't even have limited mobility while rooted (which is something many, many tankers have asked for, zillions of times.) Even taunt and provoke don't always get them to close to melee range.
Of course, you could have teleport, and bamf around the combat while still rooted. That doesn't make sense that this works, but I'm not asking for it to be nerfed. I don't have teleport, and I don't see getting it. It doesn't fit my character concept. I can't justify it in any way, other than to bow before the altar of game mechanics.
So, this is supposed to be fun? Challenging? Not in my book.
The way to fix this, at least for tankers, is to allow some limited mobility while rooted. Let us slot a run speed enhancement into our Unyielding stance, or the like. Let each one allow 5-10% of our normal, non-sprint, non-jumping movement. You get movement, at the cost of defense. A fair trade-off. And you don't have to stand there while that stand-offish villain pounds on you at range.
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[quoteAnd why on Earth would you pay a monthly fee for a game that you could solo 100% of the content?
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Maybe because that is how some people like it? Everyone else isn't you, shocking as that may seem.
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Well, as much as I'm all for solo play, trust me, it's what I spend most of my time doing, I have to agree with Krunch about the need in a MMO for group only content. The difference between most MMO's and CoH is that there's a frame work in exsistance that can cater to both solo and group without gimping one or the other. It could use some tweaking, but as is, it works.
The bigger issue is that there are problems with group dynamics that have been introduced that need to be addressed.
I.E. if one AT can solo fine, 4 of them are going to rock a group, leaving the solo-poor AT out in the cold. It's this, at least IMHO, that the developers are trying to address.
The hows and whys have much to do with economics, balance and content. It's not just MMO's for that matter but even the traditional pen and paper rpg moves in that direction (group-centric,) rather quickly. In many ways it has to do with the risk/reward that the developers/writers/publishers are looking for in their product.