[ QUOTE ]
The attitude of gaming that requires you address this kind of question sorta chafes my butt a bit. You know, the whole powergaming concept of how many dps can you pump out
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm with you on this, Civil_Liberty. I once helped run/develop a game where we completely removed all numbers (except health/End and then only if you brought up your char screen) and it made it so much more of a non-statistical game. I like numbers in my sports simulations, but not in my RPGs. 'Course, I realize that move would alienate all those powergamers out there. It did in the game I worked on. But then we didn't miss them either 
- Pan
The solo phenomena isn't limited to Blasters. It's just really obvious for (some) Blasters at lower levels. Trans-32 it's really true for Scrappers and some Controllers too - you can beat down either large groups or small groups at something like level +4. And if you can believe it, you can build solo Defenders that don't suck at street grinding (I think they'd always be better with an attack AT, though).
Unfortunately, I think the fix for this is looking like that solo butt-kicking is being reduced by beefing up the foes. Now I only say this is unfortunate because, no matter how much I know it's needed, being able to kick that kind of butt is fun. But villian mobs are being beefed up in issue two. The clear implication is they are currently too easy, though I think most people would have thought that only of mobs post 28 or so and not all the way down to Level 1s.
The solo XP will be more dangerous, which means slower. If this works, it may mean that group XP will be the superior XP, but that's still today's group XP, which many of us currently feel is slow.
I don't really have a point here - I'm not complaining, but am sort of lamenting the (potential) loss of today's solo street XP rates (unlike some, I actually enjoy street sweeping). Hopefully the boost to mission XP, the non-combat XP, and for those of us who are willing, the group XP will still keep things from being a true grind. Challenge is good, but grind is not. But I'm not sure we can have it both ways.
Edit: changed a sweeping opinion I attributed to everyone
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Ah - and as for the argument that mission XP "sucks." Yes, you do reap less XP/minute if you simply travel from your contact immediately to your mission door (which tends to be player behavior). However, if you fight some spawns on the way - and finish the mission with the new XP rewards - I think you'll find that missions are much, much more competitive XP wise.
Oh - and one other thing. The vast, vast majority of players at any given time are on missions. XP or not - it's the most popular part of the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't speak for the new mission XP rewards. I don't know what those are yet. However, as you level higher and higher a lot of your missions take place in zones and force you to pass through zones where the mobs give you no XP whatsoever because they are too low level for you.
Personally, I find the missions, and especially the stories around the missions, highly enjoyable in their own right. I have noticed that I tend to get more xp, actually, per unit time, when doing missions with a group. Unfortunately I like to solo, so missions tend to take more time, be more risky, and give (per unit time) less xp.
I also find that after I am done with all the missions my contacts will give me, about 2-2.5 levels into those contacts, I spend the next several levels before new contacts simply street hunting, solo. It's dull, but it's less of a pain then street hunting in groups, or doing a mission with someone else that I have already finished for myself.
I don't mind slow levelling. I don't play the game to level. I play the game for the missions. If you could just give us more missions I would be a very happy camper.
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Statesman has stated, recently, that everything in CoH should be soloable for every AT. (no matter how long it could take)
So the OP has a good point.
[/ QUOTE ]
No way did he say that. Is he going to say a level 41 Empath could solo the Sewer trial? That a Force Fielder can solo Nosferatu?
I can't imagine Statesman saying something so blatently false, especially considering he's said the exact opposite in the past.
[/ QUOTE ]
Guess is what he meant was leveling, that an AT should be able to level going solo.
Trials and such are a different case
[ QUOTE ]
In City of Heroes, it's the sheer size of the spawn that counts...If you've got a bigger group, then go find a bigger spawn. Simple as that. But if a group of 4 heroes defeats 3 minions (which are designed for only a single hero), then they aren't getting much XP. Those 4 heroes should take their act to a Hazard zone, where the spawn sizes are appropriate for their team.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the things I love about the early game of CoH, unfortunately late game, where large groups of mobs are stacking status effects or worse holds and stuns, it is not profitable attack larger groups. So these groups of 4-8 heroes are stuck fighting groups of 2-3, just like the solo scrapper or blaster.
In this equation the only way to beat the curve is hunt higher level mobs, but right now there is a hard cap on the exp. gained from these higher mobs.
[ QUOTE ]
1 hero - 3 minions. Hero receives 120 xp.
4 heroes - 12 minions. Each hero receives 192 xp.
8 heroes - 24 minions. Each hero receives 210 xp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, with 4 heroes or more, it's going to be more like 1 boss, 2 LT's and 6 minions, and so on.
And 6 heroes or more raises mob level by 1, as well.
Throwing bosses into the mix would probably push those totals up even higher. LT's about the same as the lost minions xp wise.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Couple that with the enormous penalty for grouping beyond the 4rth person and you just don't see large teams anymore.
[/ QUOTE ]
Penalty for more than 4 people? Certainly not XP wise; players get an XP bonus for having larger and larger groups. What are you referring to?
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps he's a powergamer refering to the infamous "Purple Patch". It seems that certain larger groups don't think they're getting worthwhile XPs unless they're able to defeat +10 level mobs. I don't know, that's just a guess.
Dwimble
[/ QUOTE ]
It would be a wrong guess, in my case. From my posts, though, I can certainly see where I would get that label as a powergamer.
I personally found large teams hunting deep purple mobs to be the best fun. They tended to be longer fights with the whole team much more involved.
Read my other posts for my explanation on why it is a penalty and not a bonus, so I don't have to repost it
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe EQPS2 gave a bonus for grouping. This is what CoH should do. Or at least give the same for grouping as for solo. I play a blaster, my wife plays a defender and my son plays a tank. Why should we invite others if it is going to decrease our xp. The missions are so easy that we never need a controller or scrapper. So they should either up the difficulty of the mission (which I believe they should do no matter what) and/or take away the xp penalty for grouping.
[/ QUOTE ]
There IS a bonus for grouping.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is? I honestly thought it was the exact opposite. I thought you gained less xp in a group then solo. I thought I even tested this out once a long time ago. Oh well, wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, 3 people defeating one minion will each get less XP than one person defeating one minion. Less risk = less reward.
That doesn't mean there isn't a bonus for grouping however... it's just not 150%. I believe it's closer to 15%, and scales based on how many people are in the group.
I'm going to pull numbers out of thin air now:
1 Hero defeats 1 Minion: 100 XP
3 Heroes defeat 1 Minion, no bonus: 33.3XP
3 Heroes defeat 1 Minion, with 15% bonus: 38.3XP <-- reality
Now, yes, they each received less than they would have soloing that one Minion, but that Minion was worth 115 XP instead of the usual 100 XP. If they defeat 1 Minion per group member, they will receive more XP (115) than if they were ungrouped (100).
That's how the grouping bonus works in CoH.
Statesman said: [ QUOTE ]
Penalty for more than 4 people? Certainly not XP wise; players get an XP bonus for having larger and larger groups. What are you referring to?
[/ QUOTE ]
In answer to your question Statesman, on the 4 person team, I think my anecdotal experience is that more than 4 characters on a team is not optimal (and thus if it is not optimal others might consider it a penalty) for 2 reasons.
Reason 1) You get a front loaded mission with 8 folks, sure you get lots of minions, but they tend to be more hassle than they are worth, and with a small level spread in the party, you can have 7-8 folks killing green and grey mobs. Ya gotta remember, most missions are not run at the optimal time in your character's level. Frequently, you get blue and green missions by the time you get around to doing yours if your not the highest level person in your group. Extra minions really do not increase the risk all that much, but they do increase the time it takes to arrest them. This gives the illusion/reality of lower dps.
Reason 2) A well balanced team of 4 can kill just as well as a group of 8. In fact you get 2-3 tanks/controllers on a team and they are largely redundent and not needed, almost 5th wheels. Get 2-3 blasters and things just die really fast anyway. Except for blasters, and to some degree defenders, the game does not handle redundent classes in a group very well. It is just not optimal. So you might as well stick with 3-4 folks and you will do fine and get good xp. You can run through missions pretty fast and if you want a challenge you can take on some red/low purples on the streets.
This is my anecodtal experiences anyway...take them for what they are.
Valari wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
...and they can't fight more mobs because a 4 person team is already fighting the maximum number of mobs they can find.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect that Statesman will tell you "We know that the game is too easy at higher levels, and we're working on that," as he has said in other threads. To extrapolate from his statements there, when average mob difficulty goes up, you won't see 4 man teams fighting the largest groups available any more.
I suspect the "increase mob difficulty" project is intended to address the following problems, in no particular order:
1. The insane xp/time rate of solo AOE blasters.
2. The relative ease of encounters from levels 25-40.
3. The relative uselessness of a full 8 hero team over a 4 man team (or whatever size team can effectively mow through trial zones).
And what I learned while writing this post: I have virtually no chance of spelling "statements" correctly on the first try when the statements I am writing about came from Statesman. No doubt there's a tongue twister in all this, but I'm already humbled by my little episode of cognitive overlap, so hopefully somebody else can find it.
Hephaestus-
I've soloe'd Bobcat, Nightstar, Shadowhunter, Terra (DE), Chimera, and well.. those are mostly Praetorian AV's. I wasn't able to solo Envoy or Clockwork King. =P Those are also cherry picked, easy AV's. Well, Shadowhunter has this one attack.. but I was able to avoid it luckily. I also died a few times trying on Terra and Shadowhunter.
Let's not forget that while you are getting a mission/talking to a contact, the rest of your group isn't standing there next to you saying in local/team chat, "Is he done yet? This sure is fun."
They are all seeing their contacts in multiple zones, afk, going to the store, training, bio, etc.
So, when you say, "On the way" it's even more inaccurate than the lowbie-zone dilemma portrays.
It's not even remotely close to a Point A to B issue.
And that's assuming everyone in the group is willing to contribute in a street sweeping from Point A, D, K, R, and Z to Point B while they are traveling.
Or that the people who can contribute will choose to knowing that some guy is sitting there afk waiting for a Recall.
I won't say "leeching" because that's not his intent, but he's definitely not contributing.
It all changes once you get in the mission...sure, in that controlled environment, everything balances out.
By the way, in how many other MMORPG's does your 30th level hero have to go slogging through the sheep zone for a quest?
I'm really asking, all I've ever played is UO and SWG.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here goes.
A while back a patch was introduced (the purple patch) that made killing a mob +4 your level impossible. A month later, this patch was rolled back to make killing a mob +5 your level impossible.
It is this purple patch that places a hard cap on the difficulty of the mobs that a team can fight.
While the actual math shows a bonus to grouping, in practice it is a penalty. An 8 person team cannot fight harder mobs, or more mobs, then a 4 person team. They can't fight harder mobs because the purple patch won't let them damage +5 mobs enough and they can't fight more mobs because a 4 person team is already fighting the maximum number of mobs they can find. You will even see small teams with a tank herding many groups of mobs.
That is why adding to a team only subtracts from the xp each individual player earns, while not adding to the level or nu
mber of mobs the team can fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh, I've been in 5 man teams that could take down +5.
Statesman,
First I would like to apologize for those posters who can't argue with you without being rude. Their complete lack of appreciation for people who have to balance the concerns and wants of several hundred thousand users is disturbing.
I would argue that the reason you don't might not see as many full groups has nothing to do with XP. I notice the larger the group, the more chaos and the harder it is to follow the action on your screen (tons of effects, movement, etc).
I get XP much faster on missions (which I do almost exclusively) when I'm teamed with 1-3 other people then I do when I solo my character. First, because there is less down time. Second, because there are more spawns. Third, because I'm less likely to die and slow myself down even more.
I don't think CoH is perfect. I see things I would like changed. My empathy defender has problems, so does my katana scrapper (but Issue 2 seems to be fixing most of those). Some of the changes I want are merely cosmetic: like a way for a female character to sit in a skirt without flashing her panties.
Some people may think I'm just kissing up, but I do appreciate the devs, the gms, the board moderators, and everyone else working on CoH.
And for fellow posters: remember no one likes being yelled at or treated rudely. No one likes being told that something they poured their heart into sucks. And no one deserves it.
-Lara Amber (hopefully representing the 99.99% of forum posters who care)
[ QUOTE ]
Ah - and as for the argument that mission XP "sucks." Yes, you do reap less XP/minute if you simply travel from your contact immediately to your mission door (which tends to be player behavior). However, if you fight some spawns on the way - and finish the mission with the new XP rewards - I think you'll find that missions are much, much more competitive XP wise.
[/ QUOTE ]
While the majority of what you are saying makes 100% sense, part of this statement seems a bit bogus to me.
What if you are assigned a mission in a zone where everything cons very, very grey to your character? Not much point in stopping to fight. While I agree completely that there's no downside to going on a mission and fighting along the way in some cases, there are many cases where this part of the xp you're factoring into the mission system simply isn't relevant.
"I have heard of a place where humans do battle in a ring of jello." -Teal'c.
The available XP awarded to the team is given a grouping bonus then evenly divided between teammembers. That is why defeating 1 minion with 3 people does not result in 1/3rd of the experience compared to defeating 1 minion solo.
1 v 1, yes... you get more XP than 3 v 1, but then 3 v 12 will yield better results.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
[ QUOTE ]
Hephaestus-
I've soloe'd Bobcat, Nightstar, Shadowhunter, Terra (DE), Chimera, and well.. those are mostly Praetorian AV's. I wasn't able to solo Envoy or Clockwork King. =P Those are also cherry picked, easy AV's. Well, Shadowhunter has this one attack.. but I was able to avoid it luckily. I also died a few times trying on Terra and Shadowhunter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, btu when people talk about Inv scrappers, they generalize it to all Inv scrappers, so if all Inv scrappers are so l33t and ub3r I shoudl be able to solo all of those as well.
The fact is, a Martial Artist/Invuln scrapper isn't going to be able to. At least, not pre-issue 2.
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru
[ QUOTE ]
And what I learned while writing this post: I have virtually no chance of spelling "statements" correctly on the first try when the statements I am writing about came from Statesman. No doubt there's a tongue twister in all this, but I'm already humbled by my little episode of cognitive overlap, so hopefully somebody else can find it.
[/ QUOTE ]
If Statesman states a statement, how would a statesman state Statesman's statements. 
Dwimble
[ QUOTE ]
Some people may think I'm just kissing up, but I do appreciate the devs, the gms, the board moderators, and everyone else working on CoH.
[/ QUOTE ]
I appreciate much of what the Devs do. They keep us more informed then any other MMO I've played. Of course maybe that is why I'm so vocal I know they are listening. I do try to remember my manners when I discuss things but I am known to be a passionate person in my views and beliefs.
Statesman, chances are that in a group of more than 4 people, there will be someone that cannot make it into a danger zone at higher lvls. this means that for a team of friends or SG-mates someone usually has to drop from the team in order for the rest of the group to get decent XP. Otherwise, based on the numbers you presented earlier the team will not earn XP as fast.
This kind of forces people to deal with slower xp rates just so they can play with friends.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here goes.
A while back a patch was introduced (the purple patch) that made killing a mob +4 your level impossible. A month later, this patch was rolled back to make killing a mob +5 your level impossible.
It is this purple patch that places a hard cap on the difficulty of the mobs that a team can fight.
While the actual math shows a bonus to grouping, in practice it is a penalty. An 8 person team cannot fight harder mobs, or more mobs, then a 4 person team. They can't fight harder mobs because the purple patch won't let them damage +5 mobs enough and they can't fight more mobs because a 4 person team is already fighting the maximum number of mobs they can find. You will even see small teams with a tank herding many groups of mobs.
That is why adding to a team only subtracts from the xp each individual player earns, while not adding to the level or nu
mber of mobs the team can fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh, I've been in 5 man teams that could take down +5.
[/ QUOTE ]
+5 to you, or +5 to the highest member of the team, or +5 to everyone on the team?
BladeWraith is kinda infamous for saying he could take down +8 mobs, when what was happening was the mobs were +8 to him, but +2 to the highest person and +3 to the second highest person in the team.
Your statement needs a whole lot more information in it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Couple that with the enormous penalty for grouping beyond the 4rth person and you just don't see large teams anymore.
[/ QUOTE ]
Penalty for more than 4 people? Certainly not XP wise; players get an XP bonus for having larger and larger groups. What are you referring to?
[/ QUOTE ]
Larger and Larger groups can take down larger and larger prey. With a group of 5-8 there is little to no group of mobs that will challenge a group of that size post purple patch.
A well prepared group of 5-8 mows through introductory purples just as easily as it mows through even cons. Anything bigger than that is a brick wall due to the purple patch scaling upwards too sharply.
Whether you wanted it or not you created a very fun environment pre-purple patch for large groups doing street hunting. Groups of 8 could battle a group of +10s over the course of several minutes and a few close calls, potentially a death and have alot of fun for alot of reward.
Now you can go toe to toe with the same group of +10s and either get killed for no reason(artificial brick wall), or if your group is good enough you can potentially have a fight lasting 10-15 minutes that is a stalemate. That scenario can be exciting, but not very fun, considering 90% of the attacks are whiffs.
Relaxing the purple patch allowed teams to team up again in groups of 8 and do missions and still be entertained to some good degree, but the horrible xp (for missions) and being sent from the far f00king end of Founders Falls to the heart of PP made this become seriously draining and annoying.
My preference in play now is still groups of 8 running missions, because I have fun due to the people I'm with. Not due to the content I'm experiencing. (Or the insane travel times, even with a maxed out travel power.)
Groups of 8 hunting +10s in Brickstown was the most fun I have had in this game. Only got to do it a few times, but I actually felt like I would die or be seriously injured with any wrong move and it put my team to a true test and that was hellaciously fun.
That's just my opinion, but it also seems to be the opinion of several other players who have been around since beta and pre-order.
Many people that have discovered the forums that are currently around don't even have any clue as to what the purple patch was, therefore they haven't had the excitement that came before it and have no reason to believe that what seems to be good, used to be that much better.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Couple that with the enormous penalty for grouping beyond the 4rth person and you just don't see large teams anymore.
[/ QUOTE ]
Penalty for more than 4 people? Certainly not XP wise; players get an XP bonus for having larger and larger groups. What are you referring to?
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps he's a powergamer refering to the infamous "Purple Patch". It seems that certain larger groups don't think they're getting worthwhile XPs unless they're able to defeat +10 level mobs. I don't know, that's just a guess.
Dwimble
[/ QUOTE ]
At this point it doesn't even come down to the xp. Most xp you're going to get is for +6. With this in place, why should the purple patch be in place?
They fixed the purple patch's main reason for existence already. Why not remove it now?
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
[ QUOTE ]
A well prepared group of 5-8 mows through introductory purples just as easily as it mows through even cons. Anything bigger than that is a brick wall due to the purple patch scaling upwards too sharply.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah - this is somewhat unrelated. The game is too easy at higher levels. Larger groups need to hunt higher level spawns in order to find challenge, and therefore fun.
The missions at levels 30+ contain foes -1,0,+1 to the level of the mission holder (or at least the level he was when he received the mission). Those foes are trivially easy for players at those levels. Thus, they go to street sweeping - because the fun is at fighting foes +5 levels - and consequently they receive A LOT of experience points.
The goal (eventually) is to make the +1,0,-1 level spread as fun at 30th level as it was at 10th level.
My problem has always been that I do not mind that I SOLO can not take on a +4, in a group not being able to touch a +4 is ludicrous.
I personally feel that past four people it should up what the group can take on,
I.E.
5th person joins we can now take +5 without a whiff fest
6th person joins we can now take +6 without a whiff fest
7th person joins we can now take +7 without a whiff fest
8th person joins we can now take +8 without a whiff fest
This would ENCOURAGE grouping above four without having to add any more experience as many people think.
As it stands now the only reason I go for more than four is a Team Force, we all now that by the end half quit anyhow out of time restraints so it ends in four anyhow.