Suppose an emulator shows up, How many of you would go on?
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2012-10-11 17:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Legality and morality are not always one in the same.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
Apparently the new motto for the community is:
"We are heroes. We don't give a sh*t if it's illegal." |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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true but not sure if its morally right to "bootleg" another's work for their own use and enjoyment without giving proper compensation to the owner, especially without their permission.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Legality and morality are not always one in the same.
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-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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Hey, we told them we'd be willing to continue paying for it. Since they told us they no longer want our money and put the thing we want in the trash anyway, there's no real victim in our just taking it.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
true but not sure if its morally right to "bootleg" another's work for their own use and enjoyment without giving proper compensation to the owner, especially without their permission.
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Legally, we may be wrong; I'll admit that. But morally, it's not like they're going to miss it.
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Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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And that's his heroic character.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
My main character for 8 years eats babies and laughs knowing that by the time his enemies reach the hospital by way of the emergency teleporter they'll already be dead from having been strangled with their own intestines.
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I think it's more like them putting it into a safe.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Hey, we told them we'd be willing to continue paying for it. Since they told us they no longer want our money and put the thing we want in the trash anyway, there's no real victim in our just taking it.
Legally, we may be wrong; I'll admit that. But morally, it's not like they're going to miss it. |
Yet, if you break into a junkyard as much useless stuff they have there and take something, it's still is stealing, assuming the dogs dont get ya first. Or like someone turning down an offer for a tv that is going to a basement and someone just coming in and taking it, still is stealing.
It is their property and they have the right to do what they please with it, even if it seems as illogical as turning a Rolls-Royce into a hunting buggy, still it's it their property and their right to chose to sell it or not. It's not yet in the trash can or else it would been open in the trash bin for the public. Seeing how they didnt release it to the public, it seems to be still in their possession and just taking it, is stealing.
Most people have stuff around their house they are not using or what not, but doesnt mean that someone have a right to just invite themselves in and take it because they think you are not using it often enough or properly or say that you are not planning on using it because you stop sharing it with them and they still want to use it.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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An emulation server isn't breaking in and taking anything, it's permitting us to use the products that we paid for and own. Like opening up and modifying a piece of hardware that we purchased to suit our personal needs. Sure, it voids the warranty, but the original manufacturer is no longer providing support or service for the product. We can't go into business selling the modified product, of course, but we can do whatever we want to what we bought.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
I think it's more like them putting it into a safe.
Yet, if you break into a junkyard as much useless stuff they have there and take something, it's still is stealing, assuming the dogs dont get ya first. Or like someone turning down an offer for a tv that is going to a basement and someone just coming in and taking it, still is stealing. It is their property and they have the right to do what they please with it, even if it seems as illogical as turning a Rolls-Royce into a hunting buggy, still it's it their property and their right to chose to sell it or not. It's not yet in the trash can or else it would been open in the trash bin for the public. Seeing how they didnt release it to the public, it seems to be still in their possession and just taking it, is stealing. Most people have stuff around their house they are not using or what not, but doesnt mean that someone have a right to just invite themselves in and take it because they think you are not using it often enough or properly or say that you are not planning on using it because you stop sharing it with them and they still want to use it. |
Now, you can say that the software is only licensed, not purchased, but as far as I'm concerned that's unenforceable nonsense. Software I pay for is mine to use as I see fit, just like anything else I buy for personal use. The service is like ink and toner for a printer; I don't have to stop using a printer when the manufacturer stops selling ink, I can buy ink from a third-party vendor. Or make my own, if I had the skills and urge.
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There's a distinction between "I'm going to use this service you provide without paying for it" and "well, I'd keep paying you for this service, but you're demising it, so I'd like a way to keep playing it without you."|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
true but not sure if its morally right to "bootleg" another's work for their own use and enjoyment without giving proper compensation to the owner, especially without their permission.
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If emulator makers start charging for access (not just accepting donations) that gets into significantly muddier waters. Even donations are iffy unless there's a very strong message that they explicitly help keep the emulator going. (Some proof would be better than just a message, but at some point you make the burden of proof such that the people would just be better off being a proper business, and then they would really be a nice fat target for litigation.)
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The problem with someone making a server emulator is that they're running a big financial and legal risk. If NCsoft decides to go after the programmers of an emulator those programmers will potentially face tens of thousands of dollars in lawyers fees just fighting the restraining orders, not to mention the lawsuits that would follow, suing the programmers for millions of dollars in lost revenue. What revenue, you ask?
Companies frequently buy out competitors only to shut down the purchased product lines, to force customers to buy their products instead of the shut-down competitor's products. Yes, they will lose some customers that way, but they just don't care: we've all heard the stories about how much money NCsoft is swimming in.
NCsoft has basically said they're shutting down CoH because it's not what they want to do. It seems obvious that they want to get CoH customers into GW2 and other similar games. They may also believe that the subscription model is a dinosaur, and making customers pay 60 bucks up front for a game like GW2, along with subsequent updates, is the way to go. That way they can shut it down pretty much any time with no long-term commitment to support subscribers.
(Someone with GW2 should comb through its EULA to see how much advance warning NCsoft says they will give owners of the game before the servers are shut down. That number will probably tell you everything you need to know.)
In court they would probably argue that people who create emulators for CoH are in essence stealing customers from their other games, as well as suing for copyright and trademark infringement. Now, trademarks will eventually lapse if a company makes no effort to sell the trademarked product. But that won't do the programmers a lick of good when they're forced to defend themselves in court, which would cost them thousands of dollars.
You may think that these legalistic arguments are bogus. But what competent programmer who has to pay rent or college tuition, or feed their kids and make their mortgage payments, is going to risk getting sued and going bankrupt so that the rest of us can continue to play a game on an emulator that will undoubtedly be riddled with more bugs than Champions Online?
I really liked CoH, and wish it could have stayed around. But NCsoft wants it dead, dead, dead, and unless they give someone else the legal right to the IP, any programmer would be risking financial ruin for writing an emulator.
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Considering that there was no time frame mentioned in the CoX EULA before Freedom (nor after freedom to be honest), it would be bit of a futile point really.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
(Someone with GW2 should comb through its EULA to see how much advance warning NCsoft says they will give owners of the game before the servers are shut down. That number will probably tell you everything you need to know.)
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You don't own anything dude. You were renting pixels and electrons from Koreans. Sad, but true.| An emulation server isn't breaking in and taking anything, it's permitting us to use the products that we paid for and own. |
I mean, it's pretty much exactly like living in a rent house for thirty years. You don't own the rent house any more after thirty years than you did the day you moved in. That was the point of the 15 dollars every month - rent, for you to stay in Paragon. Well, the owner doesn't want to renew the contract. Are you going to start squatting?
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
I'd be all over an emulator the instant one was released, and I'd donate 15$ a month forever to help keep it running just to spite ncsoft. And if they have a problem with it, they can kiss my rear, because frankly I don't give a damn what the suits think. If they decide to get testy about it, I'd download and run it locally and there wouldn't be a damn thing they could do about it.
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Feel about the same on this one.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I would try it out, illegal or not.
Would I stick around? That would depend on what the new "devs" do with it. |
I would go on in a heartbeat. Heck if the folks that craft the emulator code see fit to distribute it, I may just run a server.
Now for you folks that won't join for moral reasons? Fine. I can respect that.
But I'm afraid the folks citing legal concerns are not aware of the realities of the internet. That's their choice as is whether or not to act on that revelation. I assure you your choice is unlikely to affect me.
It's not how many times you get knocked down that count. It's how many times you get up.
(about the 3rd or 4th time I've said this on other threads)
Yes. Any way, any how.
Community? The one that bites you if you happen to disagree with the popular opinion? It's overrated, I won't miss it. PUGs? Won't miss those, either.
Does not have to be any development, the game is fine as is. But any development would be okay, even if slow in coming.
I do hope it's the current live version, or perhaps an issue back is okay.
I would love the i24 version that's on beta for all my blasters (and the IO changes.. superpacks aren't necessary).
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If anyone even let the first argument into court on its own merits, they should be run off the bench on a pole. You could use the precedent that would set to sue makes of other games entirely. It'd be the most pro-monopoly stance imaginable. "Don't let other people create something that might steal my customers!"|
Originally Posted by Rodion
In court they would probably argue that people who create emulators for CoH are in essence stealing customers from their other games, as well as suing for copyright and trademark infringement. Now, trademarks will eventually lapse if a company makes no effort to sell the trademarked product. But that won't do the programmers a lick of good when they're forced to defend themselves in court, which would cost them thousands of dollars.
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Now, I could see claiming that the copyright and (if applicable) trademark infringement damage was exacerbated by the lost customers, basically playing on the heartstrings of a judge or jury to increase damages since it had this additional aggravating factor. But claiming lost customers as a primary grievance? That seems awfully tenuous.
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| You may think that these legalistic arguments are bogus. But what competent programmer who has to pay rent or college tuition, or feed their kids and make their mortgage payments, is going to risk getting sued and going bankrupt so that the rest of us can continue to play a game on an emulator that will undoubtedly be riddled with more bugs than Champions Online? |
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Of course I would. Why should so many thousands of hours of creativity and effort go to waste?
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A common creed of vigilantes, I'd say.|
Originally Posted by Brillig
Apparently the new motto for the community is:
"We are heroes. We don't give a sh*t if it's illegal." |
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
I think it's more like them putting it into a safe.
Yet, if you break into a junkyard as much useless stuff they have there and take something, it's still is stealing, assuming the dogs dont get ya first. Or like someone turning down an offer for a tv that is going to a basement and someone just coming in and taking it, still is stealing. It is their property and they have the right to do what they please with it, even if it seems as illogical as turning a Rolls-Royce into a hunting buggy, still it's it their property and their right to chose to sell it or not. It's not yet in the trash can or else it would been open in the trash bin for the public. Seeing how they didnt release it to the public, it seems to be still in their possession and just taking it, is stealing. Most people have stuff around their house they are not using or what not, but doesnt mean that someone have a right to just invite themselves in and take it because they think you are not using it often enough or properly or say that you are not planning on using it because you stop sharing it with them and they still want to use it. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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What if you were considering a garage sale in the future? All your items would be useless and you'd lose all that money.| The problem with the analogies is that there is actual loss going on, which wouldn't be the case here. If someone could manifest a usable copy of various and sundry objects in my "house" that I own without really impacting me, then I say more power to them. They're not stealing anything from me, in that case, because for something to be stolen an actual loss has to be incurred. |
Maybe NCSoft is keeping CoH on ice so they can do a CoH2 when the EU solves its problems and the US economy gets going again. All these superhero movies are still incredibly popular, so the market exists for a new MMO once people have more money to spend. And it's not like sequels can't be much bigger than the originals. The Warcraft franchise didn't become hugely popular until Warcraft III, if I remember right.
And it makes sense to just nuke the whole game and start from scratch. CoH is the Gordian knot of code. Better just to go Alexander up on that ****** and make a new one.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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true. but when it comes to data, replication can cause a loss of value to the original data. I guess the better analogy is being an artist that is trying to make a living. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
A common creed of vigilantes, I'd say.
The problem with the analogies is that there is actual loss going on, which wouldn't be the case here. If someone could manifest a usable copy of various and sundry objects in my "house" that I own without really impacting me, then I say more power to them. They're not stealing anything from me, in that case, because for something to be stolen an actual loss has to be incurred. |
You paint a picture out of your own mind, and someone offers to buy it, you decline, so they replicate your picture and sell it as if they created it. Not to mention they made cash off your stuff and didnt have decency to cut you in on the profits but because you wouldnt sell it to them and they felt you was wasting the picture, they just "took" it and claimed it as theirs.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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basically. |
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
What if you were considering a garage sale in the future? All your items would be useless and you'd lose all that money.
Maybe NCSoft is keeping CoH on ice so they can do a CoH2 when the EU solves its problems and the US economy gets going again. All these superhero movies are still incredibly popular, so the market exists for a new MMO once people have more money to spend. And it's not like sequels can't be much bigger than the originals. The Warcraft franchise didn't become hugely popular until Warcraft III, if I remember right. And it makes sense to just nuke the whole game and start from scratch. CoH is the Gordian knot of code. Better just to go Alexander up on that ****** and make a new one. |
Especially the code part. Many simple suggestions that even the devs thought would be a god idea and wanted to implement couldnt be done in a timely manner due to the code.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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What if the world ended in the mysterious and hypothetical future? Then it would all be immaterial anyway. |
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
What if you were considering a garage sale in the future? All your items would be useless and you'd lose all that money.
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Or, how about this: If items were purchased at my garage sale, then that's "stealing" potential profits from retailers in much the same way as potential profits were being hypothetically stolen from me. A vicious cycle of thievery, indeed. Or a load of nonsense whichever way you look at it.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Take away the motivation and make it objective: if two unconnected people paint the same scene and one manages to sell their painting and the other cannot, is it stealing?
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
true. but when it comes to data, replication can cause a loss of value to the original data. I guess the better analogy is being an artist that is trying to make a living.
You paint a picture out of your own mind, and someone offers to buy it, you decline, so they replicate your picture and sell it as if they created it. Not to mention they made cash off your stuff and didnt have decency to cut you in on the profits but because you wouldnt sell it to them and they felt you was wasting the picture, they just "took" it and claimed it as theirs. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Well, if another company legitimately purchases the CoH IP and restarts lawful servers, they'll be the ones who get my patronage. I'm not about to support illegal activity if a legal option exists simultaneously.|
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
What if you were considering a garage sale in the future? All your items would be useless and you'd lose all that money.
Maybe NCSoft is keeping CoH on ice so they can do a CoH2 when the EU solves its problems and the US economy gets going again. All these superhero movies are still incredibly popular, so the market exists for a new MMO once people have more money to spend. And it's not like sequels can't be much bigger than the originals. The Warcraft franchise didn't become hugely popular until Warcraft III, if I remember right. And it makes sense to just nuke the whole game and start from scratch. CoH is the Gordian knot of code. Better just to go Alexander up on that ****** and make a new one. |
For the rest of your post... there's no reason to shut off the existing CoH game now if the plan is to make a sequel in a few years. And since Paragon won't be having anything to do with a sequel, should it ever come to pass, it's doubtful that it would really carry on the same spirit as the original. It would likely end up being a superhero-shelled version of a generic Korean grindfest with a heavy loot and PVP focus, and therefore be something I have no interest in playing at all.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Depends if you bought the product in the first place. If the person selling an item didnt buy the product or stole it, then yeah that is stealing.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
What if the world ended in the mysterious and hypothetical future? Then it would all be immaterial anyway.
Or, how about this: If items were purchased at my garage sale, then that's "stealing" potential profits from retailers in much the same way as potential profits were being hypothetically stolen from me. A vicious cycle of thievery, indeed. Or a load of nonsense whichever way you look at it. |
See, players did not buy the IP, they just rented a small time share to use it to play and bought the software to access this game.
Now your example is like if NCSoft sold the IP and you turn around and sell it as property you purchased outright. Seeing as NCSoft if the property owner of the IP, it would be like raiding a neighbor's garage with no permission and selling that item at your garage sale.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
"We are heroes. We don't give a sh*t if it's illegal."