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afocks

By afocks,
Posted on: 2012-09-04 19:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
OK, I keep hearing about "passives," but what does that mean, really? Is A passive - singular - that big of a deal in Champions Online? I don't remember them being this strong when I played, but I also don't remember them being mutually-exclusive.
You can only have 1 slotted passive, they give strong bonuses (damage, healing, resistance, etc) and sometimes specific mechanics, they are part of the essencial a build needs, so they are pretty important

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
OK, I keep hearing about "passives," but what does that mean, really? Is A passive - singular - that big of a deal in Champions Online? I don't remember them being this strong when I played, but I also don't remember them being mutually-exclusive.
Each build (your character can have multiple builds, using one role, one passive and whatever powers you have chosen) has one passive. Certain passives only work in certain roles (A defensive passive, can either work in a tank role, or hybrid/balanced (default) role.) and all passives (now, they didn't before) scale to your super stats.

Examples of passive types are:

Invulerability

Regeneration

Personal Force Field

Stormbringer

Ego Form


To use Invulnerability as an example - Invul works in CO as a passive. You buy the power, it automagically goes into your passive power slot. The invulnerability power grants you a % of damage resistance to all, plus reducing damage of every attack by a set amount. The damage resistance and damage absorption increases as you level, plus increases with the ranks you put into the power. And also scales to your super stats.

In other words, with just the Invulnerability passive in CO, it encompasses the entire defensive powerset of Invulnerability in City of Heroes, (excluding the mez protection and Unyielding and the top tier power Unstoppable) with just one power. Instead of having individual defensive toggles that increases your damage resistance, elemental resistance, energy resistance, you have a single passive that costs no endurance, and does all of that automatically and is always on while the power is slotted.

Offensive passives work in a similar fashion. They can only be used in a offensive or 'balanced' role. Each offensive passive buffs specific power-types. For instance, in the Wind powerset, wind powers cause lightning, crushing and cold damage (Depending on the powers) the Wind Passive Stormbringer increases (by a large margin) your lightning, crushing and cold damage, plus increases your damage resistance to lightning, crushing and cold damage, as well as generating small amounts of endurance for you whenever you get hit by lightning, crushing and cold damage.

 

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I think my biggest hurdle with the game is the blocking mechanism. I just don't really care for it.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
OK, I keep hearing about "passives," but what does that mean, really? Is A passive - singular - that big of a deal in Champions Online? I don't remember them being this strong when I played, but I also don't remember them being mutually-exclusive.
As Brigandine mentions, the important takeaway is that in CO, defensive passive powers are the equivalent of an entire defensive secondary in CoX. You can have Invulnerability, Regeneration, Lightning Reflexes, which are analogs to Invulnerability, Regeneration, and Super Reflexes here. Then there's Force Fields, which is like if FF was a Scrapper secondary and used Absorb. I wonder if they ever fixed it to work correctly with block. And then there's Defiance which is something completely unique to CO: imagine if tankers got a version of Fury that improved their damage mitigation instead of damage.

Everyone only has one passive slot, so you can only slot one passive power, offensive or defensive, per build.

When the game was launched, the offensive passive was totally worthless, so virtually everyone slotted defensive passives. It was partially that fact that caused me to comment, on more than one occasion, that CO was essentially a game of Ranged Scrappers (the other reason was that melee attacks sucked). Offensive passive powers have been substantially improved since then, but I don't have much personal experience with them.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

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Posted

OK, so what I'm getting out of this is that if I want to approximate a Scrapper, I have to go with a defensive passive. Fair enough, I suppose, but doesn't that mean I can only ever use Tank or Hybrid builds since I don't notice others allowing for defensive passives?

Just idle musings, really.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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It's OK, I swore off Jack Emmert during E.D. and G.D.N. and all the nerfs around issue 5.

He boasted that "not many people left due to that'" herp-derp! I know I did at least....and I never would go back to a company he ran.

He might not even be with CO anymore, i dunno, but I still refuse to go. Let him go on thinking he can pound my favorite character into the ground (an Ice/Storm controller, NOT very overpowered even at the time).....and then walk away boasting about it.

The fix to E.D. and a lot of the nerfs came 3+ years later. Sorry, you set the fixes in motion and then do the nerfs with the assurance that fixes are coming.

I'm not sure how anyone played between issue 5 and until I.O.s came out (and Jack was gone.)

I'm still shocked he thinks that didn't impact his game at all. It still impacts his future game today, as I will NOT head to CO for it.


Thanks for the offer though, CO community.

Level 53: Arrows/Devices/Munitions Blaster

....and hopeless Science-Natzi.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
OK, so what I'm getting out of this is that if I want to approximate a Scrapper, I have to go with a defensive passive. Fair enough, I suppose, but doesn't that mean I can only ever use Tank or Hybrid builds since I don't notice others allowing for defensive passives?

Just idle musings, really.

Actually if I'm remembering correctly (I've been reading so much about CO the last few days that I might be suffering from information overload) on a Free Form character you can switch between builds on the fly with a 10 second (?) cooldown. This means that the same character can somewhat fluently switch between different passives, roles, etc.

The closest thing it reminds me of in COH is Kheldian forms, but with a 10 second minimum to spend in each form (so no MFing Warshadin.')

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
OK, so what I'm getting out of this is that if I want to approximate a Scrapper, I have to go with a defensive passive. Fair enough, I suppose, but doesn't that mean I can only ever use Tank or Hybrid builds since I don't notice others allowing for defensive passives?

Just idle musings, really.
Yes. A defensive passive only works in tank and hybrid roles. Hybrid is basically the default role, it's well rounded without any real weaknesses, but not excelling in any area either. Your super stats affect your damage and healing potential. And you start off playing in Hybrid role (You gain other roles early on in the game.)

In other words, you're not really a tank in Hybrid mode, using a defensive passive. You're just more resilient.

In comparison - tanker role increases your maximum health, damage resistance, control power resistance (Mez protection) and energy from blocking, while reducing maximum energy and equilibrium down to 80%. Super stats in this role increases your threat generation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy View Post
Actually if I'm remembering correctly (I've been reading so much about CO the last few days that I might be suffering from information overload) on a Free Form character you can switch between builds on the fly with a 10 second (?) cooldown. This means that the same character can somewhat fluently switch between different passives, roles, etc.

The closest thing it reminds me of in COH is Kheldian forms, but with a 10 second minimum to spend in each form (so no MFing Warshadin.')
That's correct. You can switch roles every 10 seconds. And you unlock builds (lets call them character templates) that houses different gear and powers and even another passive. So someone with the Celestial power set, could go from being a healer, to switching roles (and builds) to being a tanker and tank for a team. It's something I use heavily on my Power Armor character. I have one build where he has Invulnerability and has gear stacking his Constitution, and he can tank for a team. I have another build that puts him into the ranged damage role, with the offensive passive Targeting Computer. Which increases damage, and energy regeneration. And I actively switch between both roles, whether in a team or soloing, depending on whether I need damage or defense.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
OK, I keep hearing about "passives," but what does that mean, really? Is A passive - singular - that big of a deal in Champions Online? I don't remember them being this strong when I played, but I also don't remember them being mutually-exclusive.
Just to clarify, there's a second type of passive that I don't think was mentioned, which don't take up the passive slot: energy unlocks. These are powers/skills that are always on, and generally refuel your energy based on certain conditions. e.g. Killer Instinct gives you a small amount of energy every time your Munitions attacks score a critical hit (max of once per 3 seconds). You can only take one energy unlock, but that's in addition to the slottable passive. I think the one energy unlock rule is relatively recent though - I'm sure I remember being able to take as many as you wanted (there just wasn't usually much point since they tended to tie in with effects or powers specific to certain sets).

There's also a few powers that are toggles, but due to the different way energy works in CO, they don't have a constant energy drain the way CoH ones do. Usually instead they increase the cost of all your powers by a certain %. You can have as many of those as you want.

Neither are as powerful as the slotted passives, which are a big enough deal that you should generally always take one on any build (maybe more than one if you want to be versatile enough to switch roles).

One or both of those might be what you were remembering.



As to the thread in general and the game itself, I have a lifetime sub and I dip in and out of it periodically. I find the game to be fun in small doses, but it generally doesn't ever hold me long term. My primary complaint is that teaming isn't as readily available as it is/was in CoH. That's improved a bit in recent times with all the adventure packs and the alerts, but it's still not where I'd like it - the alerts are quick 5 minute affairs that are pretty fun to start with, but get very repetitive, and the adventure packs are more like task forces (in most cases more in line with CoH's older task forces in terms of length and propensity for padding the content via repetition of sub-goals), so teams only really form to tackle specific goals, not just for the fun of teaming in every day normal content (where frankly, it's massive overkill to even duo it).

Good to hear they're being all supportive and welcoming though - I haven't been on the forums much since the early days when it was all jaded and disgruntled ex-CoH players.

 

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Whether I end up playing CO or not, I want to say that I appreciate the sympathy and support shown in this thread and others (and other forums, even) by those who already do. Thank you.

My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City

 

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... Ok, I admit, its starting to sound better. Especially the switching between builds every 10 seconds, that sounds really fun.

Few questions:

How many character slots do you have free, and how many character slots do you have Gold?

Can you switch costumes?

Aaaand... how many summons can I work into my build without being useless?

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
... Ok, I admit, its starting to sound better. Especially the switching between builds every 10 seconds, that sounds really fun.

Few questions:

How many character slots do you have free, and how many character slots do you have Gold?

Can you switch costumes?

Aaaand... how many summons can I work into my build without being useless?
1:Free members get 2 slots, and Gold member 8 slots
2:Yes, you can have many costume slots and switch them quickly anywhere
3: About as many as you want, pet builds exist and can be quite poweful if built right, there is a specialization tree focusing on pets, and you can be useful in a team with them

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
... Ok, I admit, its starting to sound better. Especially the switching between builds every 10 seconds, that sounds really fun.

Few questions:

How many character slots do you have free, and how many character slots do you have Gold?
Two for free players. Eight for subscribers. Twelve for Lifetime. You can also earn new character slots by getting characters to level 40. Also vet rewards grant some slots too. Between getting characters to level 40, and vet rewards, I have 18 character slots.

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Can you switch costumes?
Yes, you can switch costumes. You're limited to switching them once every 15 (I think) seconds. You can get upwards of 8 costume slots, and another one from joining an S.G.

Plus, you can also assign different costumes for different builds. So that when you switch builds, your costume automatically changes. On my Power Armor character I have my tanker role set with a heavier, bulkier armor, with the character scales set taller and more muscular. On the assault role, I have a costume that's slimmer and sleeker. And these costumes automatically swap as I swap roles. Unlike CoH, you don't have to buy access to a 'super tailor', and can make characters more muscular, taller, thinner wider, across costumes.

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Aaaand... how many summons can I work into my build without being useless?
That's open to debate. But I routinely see characters with around five six pets. But that's including some powers that come with multiple pets (like healing drones).

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I originally found the basic gameplay fun but shallow. But they've had a lot of time to expand the game and I haven't kept up with all the goings on there, so for me jumping in now will be almost like jumping into a new game. I'll have to see if it can keep my attention better than it did at launch and for some time after that.
Spent an hour or so in CO today; it was like an entirely new game to me, despite that I was pretty dialed in back in the day (um, 2010ish? Before the F2P model and probably before the Perfect World buyout).

The new build options (specializations) seem very interesting, but that's just my inner power gamer talking. It'll probably take me a week just to settle on a build before I start playing -- and with my luck, I'll find that I can't stand playing.

Incidentally, I didn't have to link my old Cryptic account to a new Perfect World account to download and fire up the game. Apparently, you need to link your account to post on the forums or to buy Zen points (Perfect World's currency for use in the Cryptic Store), but the old Cryptic account works just fine for subscribing and logging into the game. Just thought I'd mention that for anyone who's put off by the prospect of the extra, uh, virtual paperwork. I actually think the fact that my accounts aren't linked is good; it forces me not to spend any extra money til I decide whether I like the game or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
OK, so what I'm getting out of this is that if I want to approximate a Scrapper, I have to go with a defensive passive. Fair enough, I suppose, but doesn't that mean I can only ever use Tank or Hybrid builds since I don't notice others allowing for defensive passives?

Just idle musings, really.
Remember that CO doesn't have archetypes like CoX does**. The offensive/hybrid/defensive stances are one way to deliver a similar concept in a different mechanical way.

What's the difference between an MA/SR scrapper and an SR/MA tanker? In City of Heroes, the SR/MA tanker has higher defensive modifiers, more health, etc. The MA/SR scrapper has higher damage modifiers, higher damage buff modifiers, criticals, etc. There are archetype differences which mean there's a difference between MA/SR and SR/MA.

In CO, there are no scrappers and tankers. Instead, there are stances. In CO, you can be MA/SR (really MA/LR) hybrid which is basically a like a CoX scrapper. Or you can be MA/SR defensive, which is basically like a CoX tanker.

Its not that you're "forced" to use them, its that's just what they mean. And you can't be MA/SR offensive (melee or ranged damage), because the two offensive stances don't allow Lightning Reflexes as a slotted passive, just like you can't be a Blaster and take Super Reflexes.

The difference is that in CO, you *can* be MA/Id and be in melee offensive stance, and then switch to MA/LR Hybrid and be a scrapper, and then switch to MA/LR tank and be the equivalent of a CoX SR/MA tanker.

The closest equivalent to MA/* melee offensive stance is a CoX blapper.

Don't think of it as if you want to play a scrapper you're limited to two stances. Think of it as if you play in Hybrid, you get the numerical equivalent of being a scrapper. If you play in Tank, you get the numerical equivalent of being a tank. If you play in other modes, you will get results that equal other things in CoX, or sometimes something with no analog in CoX.

Its the CO analog to deciding archetype, except its mutable (you can change it) in CO on the fly.


** Edit: I keep forgetting non-Gold members are limited to archetype-like constructs, but you know what I mean.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_ View Post
A big tip to all coh players. Their devs seem to think that if we want to play superhero games then we want to see everything look like it's in a comic. Go to options, graphics, advanced graphics and turn off outlines.
Helps improve performance too!

 

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So.. I notice the crafting system is gone? A shame, I actually liked that..

Replaced by these "mods".. I guess I need to combine these mods with gear that has slots or somesuch? When does this gear start dropping?

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
As Brigandine mentions, the important takeaway is that in CO, defensive passive powers are the equivalent of an entire defensive secondary in CoX.
The thing about CO's passives is that they are, well, passives - buttons that you press for immediate healing or mitigation or etc are separate. So using a defensive passive is a surefire way to get tougher, and a defensive passive plus some activated defensive powers is even better, but you can be reasonably durable even with an offensive passive and role by adding other defensive powers.
So for this question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
OK, so what I'm getting out of this is that if I want to approximate a Scrapper, I have to go with a defensive passive.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "approximate a Scrapper". Even with an offensive passive, you can definitely make a character that doesn't have to hide behind a tank all the time. But having a defensive passive and swapping to it in hairy situations is also very useful. Despite my love of CoH scrappers, I've never had a character in CO that I felt was a good approximation for a Scrapper moment-to-moment; in an offensive role you're too squishy, and in Hybrid role you deal significantly less damage. But in a broader sense, switching between those as necessary definitely lets you play a damage-focused melee character that is very self-sufficient (and can even go full tank, in a pinch, which is sometimes handy for Alerts and stuff). Oh, and the way that works isn't specific to melee, so an armored gatling gun guy is workable.

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
** Edit: I keep forgetting non-Gold members are limited to archetype-like constructs, but you know what I mean.
Their archetype-like constructs are more along the lines of an AD&D class progression.

Oh, and most of them require purchasing. You can't make a gadget-based character without shelling out points, even accepting the linear progression the archetypes offer.

Oh, and they are /inferior/. At the end of the day, an archetype gets genuinely less than a free-form character, even outside of the fact there's precious few choices in powers (a handful of A or B), and a lot of limitations in viable talent and advantage choices.

I really feel Cryptic missed an opportunity here. Archetypes should either be more effective bait to either subscribing or purchasing a free-form slot, or a set of viable choices that's of relevance to VIPs.

We CAN buy those now, by the way: A free-form slot is a mere 5000 zen.
... at 100 zen to the dollar, that's only $50. For a single free-form slot.

This does not include power customization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

 

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Yeah well I gave it the ol' collegiate try.

Figured I would try CO and see if that was something that could be my next home. This post is not meant as a negative towards CO at all; especially considering their community seems very welcoming.

1. I cannot stand the graphics I play(ed) CoH because I wanted to be a superhero; like in the movies/television. CO seems WAY too cartoony for me. I was never a comics fan (ducks). I am more a X-Men movie person that an X-Men cartoon/comics person for example. This is why I liked CoH because my characters seemed more "real"/lifelike.

2. I am no MMO pro. The first (and basically only) MMO I have really played is CoH. I find/found CoH was very easy to learn from the get-go. Reading about powers and defensive boosts in CO and all that... confused the hell out of me. It took me 10 mins in game saying over and over in local chat "How do I invert my camera" before someone finally replied "Hit ESC for main menu" LOL...

3. This is along the lines of #1 - I think the world in CO is ugly Compared to Paragon City it feels very bleh.

4. Granted I was on a trial account, but uhmm I like being able to actually CHOOSE my powers not follow some laid out plan. When I hit level 2 I was awarded a new power.. wait.. where is my CHOICE?

5. I haven't seen a lot of promising information about CO financially...so it just makes me go "Meh why bother." I don't want to play another game only to lose it in the near future.

This is not to say CO is not a good game. It just isn't the game for me. I also tried DCUO; awhile ago and actually hated that game. So I guess I will twiddle around on GW2 if/when the servers shut down here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladiamors View Post
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!

 

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Originally Posted by GreenLantern68 View Post
Travel powers and branching abilities/specialties are pretty great, but barely being able to fend off a group of 2-3? Yeah, not so great.
Brigandine says it gets better with the slotted passives, but back when I was playing being barely able to fend off 2-3 enemies was pretty much the rule with the best exception being Regeneration until it got neutered (I don't recall if it was a direct nerf or a consequence of changes to enemy damage). Invulnerability and... Defiance? were situationally strong but often got easily curb-stomped, Lightning Reflexes was a joke, and Offensive passives were meaningless wastes of time. That was one of the things that majorly put me off the game.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast View Post
1. I cannot stand the graphics I play(ed) CoH because I wanted to be a superhero; like in the movies/television. CO seems WAY too cartoony for me. I was never a comics fan (ducks). I am more a X-Men movie person that an X-Men cartoon/comics person for example. This is why I liked CoH because my characters seemed more "real"/lifelike.
Heh, some of us ARE comic book fans (real big ones) and still find the graphical style to be hideous. That said, if it becomes my only avenue to enjoy a super hero themed MMO, I suppose I can get past the butt ugliness of the graphics.

 

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looking at some of the screens posted on their Facebook page, I'm starting to get confused by all the graphic hate. Granted, it's more stylized than COH, but it's honestly starting to grow on me. Also.. Batplanes.




 

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It's too... cartoon cell-ish and not enough realistic... texture.

 

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Shrug.. Maybe my inner optimist is just taking over. But I don't know if I really agree. It sort of reminds me of a Pixar movie in some ways, but it does have a very sleek and modern feel to it.

I think something worth pointing out during the graphic discussion- And I hate to mention it- Is how much nicer their environments are, especially compared to some of the older COH zones. Granted, the Atlas Park revamp and Praetoria are awesome.... But for example, I play villains almost exclusively.The other day I decided to make a new hero and ended up in Perez Park or something. Oh man, what a hideous looking zone. I felt like I was walking into a Sega Genesis map with an XBox 360 character model. It was silly.