A game mechanic I've always wondered about
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2012-08-22 14:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
This is already the case.
An Empath can already buff and heal themselves (The 3 Aura powers), but not as well as they can to their allies.
Force Fields and Cold both give the user Defence buffs (Dispersion, Arctic Fog), but not as much as their allies (same plus Shields).
Sonic already gives the user Resistance buffs (Dispersion), but not as much as their allies (Dispersion and Shields).
Kinetics can speed boost themselves (Transference + Siphon Speed)
This already happens across the set as a whole, even if it doesn't happen on a power-by-power basis. Taking the Deflection Shield power doesn't boost your defence, but taking the Force Fields set does.
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I'd be perfectly happy if 50% of a single-target heal could be self-targeted.
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Originally Posted by OmniNogard
Well Posi, any chance of it being change a little? Like 50% of the Buff will work on you while 100% on Allies/Other Players?
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At the risk of repeating myself, this is already the case.|
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
I'd be perfectly happy if 50% of a single-target heal could be self-targeted.
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The main healing sets with a single target heal (eg Heal Other) also have an aura heal that heals for half the amount (eg Healing Aura). The end cost is the same, so this is exactly the same to your character as targetting yourself with a half-effect Heal Other.
Empathy does, Thermal does, Pain Dom does.
Poison doesn't. Its a terrible set in need of fixing.
Storm doesn't. It gives you heaps of alternative self-mitigation, notably Hurricane, and isn't a heal-based set primarily.
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It could use additional tweaks, but I for one am very happy they fixed a lot of it awhile ago when it got proliferated. It's designed for constant spam use on multiple targets.
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Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
Poison doesn't. Its a terrible set in need of fixing.
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I don't think the OP would be happy with that at all - but I get it.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
A Cold Dom or Thermal Rad, able to to shield themselves and would a 4-6% Buff to your Defense or Resists really be that game breaking?
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If we take it as given that people generally understand that the AoE heals exist and include the user in the AoE, then being able to target one's self with an existing additional non-AoE healing power at 50% of its normal strength isn't covered by having the already existing AoE heal which happens to be 50% of the existing single target heal's strength.
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Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
At the risk of repeating myself, this is already the case.
The main healing sets with a single target heal (eg Heal Other) also have an aura heal that heals for half the amount (eg Healing Aura). The end cost is the same, so this is exactly the same to your character as targetting yourself with a half-effect Heal Other. |
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Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
That is true.
But, I'd argue that the first self-heal (the one we already have in those three sets) is the one that makes the big difference.
Being able to heal yourself at all makes a much bigger difference than being able to chain two heals together, especially when the first is on such a short cycle.
0 self heals - you have to wait, use rest or eat greens between groups if you took a beating.
1 self heal - you can quickly recover between groups and heal yourself in combat. Greens become in-combat emergency fodder.
2 self heals - you can survive a higher DPS than the 1 self heal case if you spam your animation time solely on healing.
I guess my general point is that the ally only buffs/heals cant just be given self-targetting without putting out inter-set balance, and that watered down buffs/heals for the user would be watered down so much as to make little difference.
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Originally Posted by Positron
Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.
I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves). |
Is it time to rethink that a bit? After all the incarnate system, to some extent, does exactly what not being able to target yourself was supposed to be about. I have Brutes that now have three different Destiny powers at either t3 or t4 and can buff an entire 24 player league (including themselves). Just tel me what you need before we start and I'll switch! I have a Warshade that has earned two badges for HEALING teammantes since getting Rebirth. And now we have Hybrid which can, at two minues on and two minutes off, buff the entire League, or potentially hold entire mobs. At one point the only AT in game that had NUKES were Blasters and to a slightly lesser degree of damage Corruptors and Defenders but now any AT can select Ion as their Judgement power at do huge amounts of damage with very little end drain.
I don't think we need to create the old D+D Paladin that could lop off the head of a dragon with a single sword stroke and then heal the wounds of an entire army but is it so hard to fathom the idea of my BM/Thermal being able to cast buffs on herself as well as her teammates and pets? What good do any of those powers do me or my team if I'm the only one DEAD because I had no defense buffs?
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I agree in that some of the buffs can be very handy if they were able to be self-cast.
When i started, my 1st character was a fire/emp controller. Granted, at that point in time of the game (at EU launch), teaming was *not* a problem... however, until i got my crack-monkeys, it was *very VERY* slow and hard going solo.
Yes, i can heal myself. With one power...
Cant give myself mez protection or anything like that.
Infact, until I get to level *28* do i get another power that affects myself. (In this case i feel sorry for Thermal, because as a 2ndary, you have to wait till level 35 to be able to use your 2nd "self" power).
Ok... since then the game has changed *alot*. Levelling is faster (DFB can help out for "team orientated concepts", to help them get past those annoying stages).
Would I actually want to put another person through that? No. Categorically no. Especially in today's environment where casual teaming appears to be on the wane (either that or more and more people have reasons to suddenly *not* team). Granted, I do have a group of friends who I can call upon to help out, however if they are not online... That is just one character that I cannot play. And as I am a "level to cap THEN start a new character, it is annoying to have choices made for me).
Would a Fire/Emp be more soloable with self buff's being available... well, it would be less annoying dying fast.. but it would probably help if some of the empathy tree was reworked to help out the *solo* player.
((Note: The above can be said for Thermal secondary for controllers)).
Heal Other, Clear Mind, Fortitude, and Adrenaline Boost would need to be reworked if they had a self-cast option (lesser duration, less effective... your choice). But overall it is something that would lessen the pain.
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Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
Debuffers currently do pay for their self-buffing to some degree against AV's and Elite Bosses with purple triangles.
Radiation Infection wont provide the team the same margin of safety that Force Field or Cold shields do in that situation. Whether that's enough to balance the inability to self-buff, I'm not sure. |
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
On the other hand, debuffs are effected by enemy resistance (purple patch and otherwise), need to hit (can be an issue with accuracy issue or mob placement), have a target cap, etc. Buffs will help you against anything you target, but can't always be used on yourself.
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Look at how powerful 2 Empathy/Anything Defenders are when buffing each other. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
"Cannot target yourself."
Why is this? |
Now remove the second player.
That's why.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yes, two Emps buffing each other are incredibly powerful. Solo, over sixty percent of that powerset is unavailable to them. Kind of sucks to be an Empath when you have no one to team with.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Look at how powerful 2 Empathy/Anything Defenders are when buffing each other.
Now remove the second player. That's why. |
Even allowing support sets to buff themselves at a reduced effectiveness would be enough, however, that's not the overarching theme of this thread. The theme of this thread is that "Cannot Target Self" is a very old design choice that, given the nature of the game and how it's changed in recent years, is archaic and does nothing for playability. I think it'd land in the same general area as the Kheldian flight/teleport lockout Synapse has lifted for I24 (note: please do not say I'm comparing apples to apples here, because I most certainly am not).
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To clarify the clarification; there are ALREADY plenty of incentives to Team; better rewards, not being the only target, people to chat with/socialising with friends, etc, group RP for folks like me and other friends on Union who do...|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
... durrrrrrr. Sorry about that. To clarify, I DO think we should all team! However, I don't think the game's powers should be balanced around that in the "Cannot target self" mechanic; there's no real reason (that I can see anyway) that support characters aren't able to buff or use single target heals on themselves.
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What we DON'T need is forced and primarily mechanical stuff. My Empath/Psi, for instance, is going to be getting an alternative version who is Psi Melee/WP when that comes out, because she NEVER gets played outside of a team. Not because teaming is more fun/rewarding, which it already is, but because I refuse to solo something that painfully bad at soloing. It's simply not fun.
/In my opinion
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Bloody hell, I didn't realise it was quite that bad O_o
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
For point and reference (sorry about the enormous post size):
Support Set Soloability Chart This color indicates a power is usable when solo --- The pattern I've noticed here is that the more inclined a support set is to healing and/or buffing (newer sets like Time and Nature notwithstanding) the less powers it gets to use solo. That seems a little unfair considering that debuff-heavy support sets have most-if-not-all of their powers available for solo play. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Uh...I wasn't, so...do tell? |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm literally speechless. Anyone who was here at the beginning can probably figure out why.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I should have clarified that better. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Look at how powerful 2 Empathy/Anything Defenders are when buffing each other.
Now remove the second player without removing the buffs. That's why. |
You can't target yourself because if you could, it is doubtful the buffs in this game would be as potent as they are.
A self-buffing Empathy Defender who has Power Build Up would have:
Permanent beyond soft-capped defense, with no holes to any damage type or position.
170% recharge via Adrenaline Boost and Hasten, most likely permanent.
A better-than-Reconstruction heal available every 2 seconds or so with that much recharge.
Capped regeneration and recovery.
And now, they would have perma fast snipe without even bothering with Tactics or a Kismet.
Oh, and all that would be before you even took IOs into consideration.
That's why we can't target ourselves. I'm not even sure if the tech exists to change the effect of a power depending on who it is targeting, so if that isn't possible, then there is no way to allow us to self buff at a lesser power level without gutting the whole powerset.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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As I said before, I'd be happy if some of the "uber buffs" like Fortitude could be used at a reduced effectiveness.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I should have clarified that better.
You can't target yourself because if you could, it is doubtful the buffs in this game would be as potent as they are. A self-buffing Empathy Defender who has Power Build Up would have: Permanent beyond soft-capped defense, with no holes to any damage type or position. 170% recharge via Adrenaline Boost and Hasten, most likely permanent. A better-than-Reconstruction heal available every 2 seconds or so with that much recharge. Capped regeneration and recovery. And now, they would have perma fast snipe without even bothering with Tactics or a Kismet. Oh, and all that would be before you even took IOs into consideration. That's why we can't target ourselves. I'm not even sure if the tech exists to change the effect of a power depending on who it is targeting, so if that isn't possible, then there is no way to allow us to self buff at a lesser power level without gutting the whole powerset. |
You'll have to pardon my opinion here if it doesn't line up with your reasoning, but I don't find the above quoted post reason enough to justify locking a player out of so many powers in a set they want to play. I see far fewer Emp and Thermal Defenders than I do any other kind. I'm willing to put money on the notion that it's because Emp and Therm can only use THREE of their powers when not on a team.
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That's why my emp i made a couple years back is still sitting at 31 and he got farmed to that level. I am a big team player and love teaming, but I also love a toon that can solo too as it is sometimes hard for me to team at times because of time restrictions and/or not enough people when I am on to team with. Because of these reasons i want a toon that has solo capabilities as well. With that being said defenders are definitely in my top 3 favorite AT's to play, but i would definitely like these other powersets to open up for me to be able to solo more effectively so that I would be prompted to take them.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I see far fewer Emp and Thermal Defenders than I do any other kind. I'm willing to put money on the notion that it's because Emp and Therm can only use THREE of their powers when not on a team.
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Granted, we may be getting closer to a solution.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Yes, two Emps buffing each other are incredibly powerful. Solo, over sixty percent of that powerset is unavailable to them. Kind of sucks to be an Empath when you have no one to team with.
Even allowing support sets to buff themselves at a reduced effectiveness would be enough, however, that's not the overarching theme of this thread. The theme of this thread is that "Cannot Target Self" is a very old design choice that, given the nature of the game and how it's changed in recent years, is archaic and does nothing for playability. I think it'd land in the same general area as the Kheldian flight/teleport lockout Synapse has lifted for I24 (note: please do not say I'm comparing apples to apples here, because I most certainly am not). |
We've now seen tech where a power has a different effect depending on whether the target is a friend or foe. If they remove the "target self" limitation, they could theoretically have a different effect for 'friend, foe, or self.' Then you could have empathy buffs that are less effective when used on "self" but better than the 'nothing' we have now.
The "tankmage" problem is quite real. In addition to STO, which someone already mentioned, I'll add two other MMOs that have suffered from this: Neocron and The Secret World.
I loved Neocron, but after a couple of months, the player population was about 66% hybrid psi-monks, that is to say, ranged DPS/healer dual-class: nearly pure-DPS damage output, better than tank-level survivability. One of the things that destroyed that game was that they never found a way to nerf that combo that didn't render psi-monks either unable to solo at all or worthless on teams.
And over in The Secret World at about the two month mark, once you get to the end game, you constantly see "healer seeks tank and 3 DPS for dungeon," because people learned that almost the only thing that can solo the end-game mobs is a healer; 70% of the damage output of a pure-DPS (and double the damage output of a tanker), better survivability than a tanker. And they're not going to be able to balance around this, either, for the same reason Neocron couldn't: a healer who can't out-heal almost all incoming damage is worthless to teams, a one who can seldom needs a team.
If you look at the AoE heals that do self-heal in City of Heroes, the AoE self-heal does about half of the healing that the single-target others-only heals do. I think that's a brilliant rule. (The one that violates that rule is Dark Miasma's, which, like everything else about Dark Miasma, is so overpowered that I have no earthly idea why it hasn't been nerfed yet.) Combine that with the solo-only damage buff from New Vigilance and what you've got is soloes almost like a corrupter, but even more useful on teams.
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Dude, we already have Tankmages. They're called Controllers, Crabs and Masterminds (don't you tell me MM's can't tank, I'll hit you with Bodyguard Mode). There is no "power problem" in this game. Power is fun, and fun is customers. An arbitrary rule like "no tankmages" doesn't hold any water when it's easy to make a tankmage just by rolling any thing with Radiation, Dark Miasma, Time, etc. Defenders are still the least soloable AT in the game, and conceptually this entire non-self-targeting system makes no sense. You're telling me that the guy who can encase people in ice, blanket them with flame, heal them with thoughts, soothe them with chemicals, and remove their pain can't do it to himself?|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
The "tankmage" problem is quite real. In addition to STO, which someone already mentioned, I'll add two other MMOs that have suffered from this: Neocron and The Secret World.
I loved Neocron, but after a couple of months, the player population was about 66% hybrid psi-monks, that is to say, ranged DPS/healer dual-class: nearly pure-DPS damage output, better than tank-level survivability. One of the things that destroyed that game was that they never found a way to nerf that combo that didn't render psi-monks either unable to solo at all or worthless on teams. And over in The Secret World at about the two month mark, once you get to the end game, you constantly see "healer seeks tank and 3 DPS for dungeon," because people learned that almost the only thing that can solo the end-game mobs is a healer; 70% of the damage output of a pure-DPS (and double the damage output of a tanker), better survivability than a tanker. And they're not going to be able to balance around this, either, for the same reason Neocron couldn't: a healer who can't out-heal almost all incoming damage is worthless to teams, a one who can seldom needs a team. If you look at the AoE heals that do self-heal in City of Heroes, the AoE self-heal does about half of the healing that the single-target others-only heals do. I think that's a brilliant rule. (The one that violates that rule is Dark Miasma's, which, like everything else about Dark Miasma, is so overpowered that I have no earthly idea why it hasn't been nerfed yet.) Combine that with the solo-only damage buff from New Vigilance and what you've got is soloes almost like a corrupter, but even more useful on teams. |
EDIT: Don't forget the Warshade, who is THE Tankmage in this game. Shades can tank, they can blast, they can heal, they can build MONUMENTAL resistances with the click of one power, they can go from zero-to-nuke-to-zero-to-full with JUST Stygian circle, they can summon their own personal blasters, they can self-resurrect, they can stun, they can hold, they can fly and teleport and stealth and intangible...
We HAVE tankmages. We've had them for a long time. IO's allow people to BUILD tankmages. The argument against them falls flat in the face of that.
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Yeah, Dark is a the top of the list (although, people keep saying Time is better -- IDK, I don't have a Time Defender yet).|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
If you look at the AoE heals that do self-heal in City of Heroes, the AoE self-heal does about half of the healing that the single-target others-only heals do. I think that's a brilliant rule. (The one that violates that rule is Dark Miasma's, which, like everything else about Dark Miasma, is so overpowered that I have no earthly idea why it hasn't been nerfed yet.) Combine that with the solo-only damage buff from New Vigilance and what you've got is soloes almost like a corrupter, but even more useful on teams.
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But the fantasticness of Dark's heal is balanced on its need to hit a foe and for teammates to be nearby. On my D3, I can hardly ever heal a Blaster in need because they keep running around so much they always run out of my AoE heal. I can't be the H34|3R for the Tanker up against Recluse on the MsLTF because I can't 'hit' Recluse to get a heal off. And there have been times I desperately needed Twilight Grasp's heal... and it failed to hit.
But when it does hit, Dark Heal is one of the best in the game for hitting oneself and a wide area of allies with huge numbers. For many high-end encounters, Dark can provide 'the healing bubble' all by its lonesome (and those who miss out can get hit with the best Rez in the game
).Dark Miasma was already nerfed once when Fluffy was limited to one out at a time and it's Hold was reduced mag and duration nominally so as not to step on Controller's territory even though Dark Hold doesn't do damage like Controller's holds do.
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Thre are powers extant or in Beta right now that have different effects depending on whether targeted at ally or enemy (part of the Medicine Pool revamp, but the name escapes me.) And things like the T4 Radial Control Hybrid appears to have a somewhat differentiated status check on targets that may be possible to utilize if needed.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'm not even sure if the tech exists to change the effect of a power depending on who it is targeting, so if that isn't possible, then there is no way to allow us to self buff at a lesser power level without gutting the whole powerset.
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I normally don't notice it, due to playing only Masterminds and Controllers when it comes to most support sets. I have never had a defender and my only corruptor is water/time.
That said, I'd like to be able to target myself.
Admittedly both can be done with costume items/auras.
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