A game mechanic I've always wondered about
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2012-08-22 14:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Look up "green machine" in game and tell them that.
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Originally Posted by Patient_V
Oh no, a moderately survivable character with low HP, weak lethal damage, and no aggro control, crowd control, or debuffs that still falls on the low end of the contribution spectrum when it comes to most teams and leagues.
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This:|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Is that a bad thing, though? I mean, I get that the point of confuse is to get you to attack your team-mates, but doesn't it make sense that you're so confused you hurt yourself?
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is not confusion. Just stupidity.
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I don't think a single post in this thread has advocated for the ability to buff one self at the same level of buff as can be given a teammate.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Good solid math stuff.
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Yeah, back in the day, it felt like it was mainly to make healers different.
We had AE heals (inefficient solo)....we had things like O2 Burst from storms: heal only others by targetting.....and the target enemy, heal around you. Blah blah blah.
If you could target yourself with your own powers, yes, guess they felt that was overpowered. Along with FF on yourself. Did I mention I hated Emmert?
=D
Level 53: Arrows/Devices/Munitions Blaster
....and hopeless Science-Natzi.
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Oh no! A solo defender who does more damage than a blaster? That's horrible!|
A Self-buffing solo Empathy Defender will have +78.75% damage from Vigilance, Fortitude, and Assault. That Defender will deal 116 damage with that theoretical power, surpassing Blaster base damage. When enhancements are considered, final damage at 95% enhancement will be 177 for the Defender versus 218 for the Blaster. That's not a whole lot less damage when you consider how much more survivable a self-buffing Defender would be. |
Well, thank god we don't already have this in-game. Nevermind that Nature Affinity defender running assault have a total damage buff of 131,3% solo. Ignore that kinetics defender at the damage cap. And don't look at the cold defender stacking 90% -res.
Well, good thing empaths can't buff themselves. For them to be self-reliant would simply be OP.
Seriously, I do not get this reasoning at all. It's okay to have Empaths turn 2-3 people on a team into such unkillable monsters but it's not okay to turn themselves into that? Why? The situation you just laid out already exists, as per your own example of a duo empathy team. If you're trying to argue that empathy defenders will all of the sudden become terrible teammates who will only buff themselves, well, that would make them bad players. Bad players will find a way to screw up one way or another. Meanwhile, good players will still recognize that that blaster on the team will benefit more from the damage buff than them and buff accordingly, without being penalized for having the audicity to want to solo on occasion.
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This. I'm finding it hard to swallow the whole "they'd make themselves too powerful" argument when they can already make EVERYONE ELSE MORE POWERFUL then they would be when buffed.|
Originally Posted by Riora
Seriously, I do not get this reasoning at all. It's okay to have Empaths turn 2-3 people on a team into such unkillable monsters but it's not okay to turn themselves into that? Why? The situation you just laid out already exists, as per your own example of a duo empathy team. If you're trying to argue that empathy defenders will all of the sudden become terrible teammates who will only buff themselves, well, that would make them bad players. Bad players will find a way to screw up one way or another. Meanwhile, good players will still recognize that that blaster on the team will benefit more from the damage buff than them and buff accordingly, without being penalized for having the audicity to want to solo on occasion.
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Looked at the numbers for Parasitic Aura and a full group of enemies lately? Other AT's can already achieve incredible levels of power without external buffs.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I don't blame them. Playing D&D in the same party as a Cleric/Druidzilla made my fighters feel really irrelevant. Not only could they tank better with just a few simple spells, they'd also do far, far, far more damage than me with their weapons. All while still being able to lob holy flaming death better than the wizard can. |
Originally Posted by Positron
Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.
I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves). |
Now while I don't think any hypothetical defenderzilla build can quite reach the absurdity of the "Druid shapeshifted as a bear, riding an even bigger bear, shooting bears out of it's eyes, one hit killing enemies many levels above it at either range or melee, all while being able to tank anything short of DM fiat" that CoDzilla was able to attain at it's height, I can see where the old Dev team was coming from.
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Because its easier to solo than to find a team. You log on and go. Finding a team, or forming a dedicated duo or whatever, requires time, organisation etc. Why not have some powersets that reward players for that?|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
This. I'm finding it hard to swallow the whole "they'd make themselves too powerful" argument when they can already make EVERYONE ELSE MORE POWERFUL then they would be when buffed.
Looked at the numbers for Parasitic Aura and a full group of enemies lately? Other AT's can already achieve incredible levels of power without external buffs. |
Its an example of high power gated behind a restriction.
Just like nukes - large damage, but you can't use them every spawn. If you lift the restriction of the long recharge it becomes unbalanced. As it is it (or will be in I24), they reward players for finding or creating the right moment, or chasing recharge buffs.
Same with Soul Drain, Parasitic Aura etc. They rock if you risk a large group of enemies to fuel them, but you wouldn't just say "Oh why not let me get the full buff from one enemy" without it becoming unbalanced, would you? As it is it rewards the player for balancing risk and reward.
If you lift the restriction from Empathy needing a teammate to use their best buffs, that becomes unbalanced too. (For full-strength Empathy buffs at least.)
Surely you can see that?
... Yes, some powers have restrictions to make them balanced. But getting passed the restrictions doesn't help or reward the Empath, does it? Unlike every other example you mentioned. It rewards the people who just so happened to team with the Empath. The Empath is the least rewarded because to itself it cannot give anything, even on a team. Solo you can only use three powers. That is a problem.
Yes it does.
Every time I Fortitude someone, or Adrenalin Boost them, the XP starts coming in faster. I find that quite rewarding.
If I play a Dark Melee character solo on x1, the Soul Drain will only hit 3 enemies most of the time, making it inferior to Build Up. Does that mean it needs fixing too?
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... until we got dual builds and could use those now-free spots to find other things that *would* help the Empath (or FF or Thermal or....)
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
... Yes, some powers have restrictions to make them balanced. But getting passed the restrictions doesn't help or reward the Empath, does it? Unlike every other example you mentioned. It rewards the people who just so happened to team with the Empath. The Empath is the least rewarded because to itself it cannot give anything, even on a team. Solo you can only use three powers. That is a problem.
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No, because you can increase the difficulty and make it hit more things. And its useful solo. Even one enemy is more useful solo than nothing. And no matter how many enemies you have, six of an Empath's powers cannot be used solo. This is bad.|
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
Yes it does.
Every time I Fortitude someone, or Adrenalin Boost them, the XP starts coming in faster. I find that quite rewarding. If I play a Dark Melee character solo on x1, the Soul Drain will only hit 3 enemies most of the time, making it inferior to Build Up. Does that mean it needs fixing too? |
And yes, it does help you, indirectly. Unlike all the other examples you gave. Parasitic Aura? Helps you. Directly. And its good enough to turn up the difficulty.
As for using the spots for other things, you can still do that if you have powers that you can actually use solo. It just means that, oh, hey, I can actually use Empathy while solo. Instead of replacing almost an entire powerset with power pool picks.
You log on as an Empathy Defender.
The chat channels are all dead, and you really dont want to switch characters.
Do you think you have enough power to knock out 5 hero tips or radio missions on your own?
I would say that you do. And I'm not even resorting to the dirt cheap temporary powers at Wentworths here.
You can god-mode every 3 or 4 minutes with the two RA's, which is enough for most bosses. You can heal yourself, and your seocndary probably has some mitigation built in, like a hold or stun. You can carry insps and use them.
You wont solo like a SS/Fire Brute, but you can still solo.
No, you won't solo like an SS/Fire brute. Or anything else for that matter, because your primary only has three powers all of a sudden. The only things that might have a worse time soloing than an empathy defended are:
Petless pain dom/thermal/force field mastermind
Oh wait, that's pretty much it.
So you think you'd be incapable of completing 5 hero tips?
Have you ever tried, or just counted powers in the set? 
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How much would keeping the buffs up affect overall DPS (with cast times and how often you'd need to re-apply)? I'm not good at figuring out attack chain numbers and such so I was curious.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You've obviously never seen 2 Empathy/Sonic Defenders buffing each other before.
I'll lay it out: Beyond soft-capped defenses, with no holes to any position or type. +60% damage. +78.75% with Assault running. That puts a Defender pretty close to Blaster base damage. Also, permanent fast snipe on the sets that have one. 170% global recharge. AB being permanent makes it very easy to make Hasten permanent as well. A better than Reconstruction heal available every 2 seconds at those levels of recharge. Capped (or close to it) regeneration and recovery via the 2 Auras. Stackable mez protection. Since all that would be possible on a self-targeting Empathy Defender before IOs are even considered, you could focus ALL of your IO slotting on +Max HP bonuses, which is the only thing not available in Empathy. Defenders have the same max HP as Blasters. You could focus quite a bit on damage bonuses too, and surpass the damage output of a Blaster on a consistent basis. An Empathy/Fire Blast Defender would be pretty ridiculous if they could self-target with their buffs. It would outperform a Blaster in just about every way. The Blaster might win in sheer damage output, but over time the Defender would win there too, since damage drops to 0 when you're dead, and the Defender would spend much less time being dead. Edit: I just did the math. With a theoretical power that deals exactly 100 damage a Blaster will deal 112.5 damage, while a Defender will deal 65 with the same power. A Self-buffing solo Empathy Defender will have +78.75% damage from Vigilance, Fortitude, and Assault. That Defender will deal 116 damage with that theoretical power, surpassing Blaster base damage. When enhancements are considered, final damage at 95% enhancement will be 177 for the Defender versus 218 for the Blaster. That's not a whole lot less damage when you consider how much more survivable a self-buffing Defender would be. |
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With a half competent player nothing is incapable of soloing 5 hero tips. Literally nothing.|
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
So you think you'd be incapable of completing 5 hero tips?
Have you ever tried, or just counted powers in the set? |
I tried playing Empathy once. I really did. But then I thought "Why?". And why would you? Why would you want to play a powerset that loses almost all of it's powers when solo? Even looking at the numbers, I couldn't justify it. I didn't find it fun. I didn't even find it strong. So I deleted it.
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When you have at least a dozen other characters that can do so more enjoyably, there's little point in it even if it is possible.
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Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
So you think you'd be incapable of completing 5 hero tips?
Have you ever tried, or just counted powers in the set? |
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
This wouldn't have to affect every power available. Single target buffs should be left alone. Single target heals do not need to be affected. I really don't see a problem with a power that can only be used on one ally at a time (all of which have long enough recharges so that they can't be used on an entire team.)
What bothers me are those powers that affect everyone on the team except the caster.
The option to target yourself is not actually needed. Simply let the powers that now buff everyone on a team but the caster affect the caster as well, and be castable without requiring a target. I suspect the easiest way would be to make them pbaoe effects around the caster like accelerate metabolism. Make the buffs work at somewhere between 25-40% strength on the caster. Leave the visual effects as they are now.
On a slightly different note, but that I feel is related: This problem basically comes down to the fact that new sets are being designed and released that are far more powerful and capable than older sets. I have no problem with new sets, variety is always a good thing. But when you have new sets that can do everything an old set could so, do that better, plus has some extra utility, it is time to take the shackles off the old sets.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
No, you won't solo like an SS/Fire brute. Or anything else for that matter, because your primary only has three powers all of a sudden. The only things that might have a worse time soloing than an empathy defended are:
Petless pain dom/thermal/force field mastermind Oh wait, that's pretty much it. |
You're empathy. You're attacking enemies solo. What are you going to do, Clear Mind them to death? I can replace that solo with a breakfree... and find another power I'd use solo anyway. Your primary has three powers you can use on yourself... the rest just sit there in the tray.
Alternately, you dip into Leadership and get yourself a bit more damage (to stack on top of the damage from Vigilance you get from being solo.) And/or extra ToHit (and perception... frigging ghosts/banes.) Or start adding some defense to your "solo offender" build. Use different sets than your team build.
How about the buffs/changes/boosts to the Presence pool coming up? Get a bit of control in there. (I've got a Dark/Therm Corruptor - who, by the way, solo also just has three powers from her secondary she can use, and had to wait longer to get them - who'll be enjoying this, as the solo build is also concept and has the presence pool.)
Seriously, having a bunch of "useless" powers is, IMHO, a gift with dual (or triple) builds.
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Because I want to. Because it fits a character concept. |
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
I tried playing Empathy once. I really did. But then I thought "Why?". And why would you?
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| Why would you want to play a powerset that loses almost all of it's powers when solo? |
Run An /Empathy Controller. (Or, for that matter, a /pain MM.) You'll never feel like the powers are "gone" or "useless" as long as you have pets. (Ignoring PA.)
Of course, it could just be that "heavy team support themed" sets are not for you. Which is fine. Doesn't mean that *they're* broken, though. They're just not for you.
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I disagree. Having a power or two that are situational or skippable is one thing, having two thirds of the set being useless solo is another.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You're empathy. You're attacking enemies solo. What are you going to do, Clear Mind them to death? I can replace that solo with a breakfree... and find another power I'd use solo anyway. Your primary has three powers you can use on yourself... the rest just sit there in the tray.
Alternately, you dip into Leadership and get yourself a bit more damage (to stack on top of the damage from Vigilance you get from being solo.) And/or extra ToHit (and perception... frigging ghosts/banes.) Or start adding some defense to your "solo offender" build. Use different sets than your team build. How about the buffs/changes/boosts to the Presence pool coming up? Get a bit of control in there. (I've got a Dark/Therm Corruptor - who, by the way, solo also just has three powers from her secondary she can use, and had to wait longer to get them - who'll be enjoying this, as the solo build is also concept and has the presence pool.) Seriously, having a bunch of "useless" powers is, IMHO, a gift with dual (or triple) builds. |
Those useless powers that give solo Empaths build flexibility? Consider this, would you rather have...
...Assault or Tar Patch?
...Invoke Panic or Fearsome Stare?
...Maneuvers or Darkest Night?
...Stealth or Shadow Fall?
Yes, skipping "useless" powers for a solo Empath build is a good idea, but that doesn't make them a boon considering what other sets are packing instead.
the point being brought up in this thread i find to be valid, that some sets are extremely difficult to use without being on a team, its a main reason i deleted my emp/psi defender a long time ago because he literally sucked without a team, almost none of the emp powers were useful while soloing and my attacks did terribad dmg
now lets consider that we get buffs are reduced effectiveness, the seers lore pet buff pet has a version of fortitude that would prolly be balanced enough to use on self, its only like +5% def, tohit, and dmg. the numbers like that are low enough that it wouldnt be bad to be able to affect self with vs numbers 6x that when used on teammate, thus it would not render the power useless while soloing but it also would not turn you into an unstoppable tank mage, hell, incarnate powers prolly made more poeple tank mages than being able to buff yourself with weakened versions of powers would lol
the other powers could potentially do the same, and to make it even less exploitable just make the numbers used on self not affected by enhances so it would never be boostable or enhanceable
the summation would be that targeting yourself would not be a bad thing as long as its balanced amount of power
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I disagree. You can always skip a useful power for a pool power, but you can never skip a pool power for a useless power because it's useless. All "skippable" powers contribute to is not asking you to make build choices about what to skip and what to keep, but you could make the exact same Empathy pool build if most of Empathy weren't useless solo as you can now by simply skipping the powers you're skipping now. You just might not be as satisfied when you find your pool build doesn't suck so much less to a team build in comparison as it does now.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Seriously, having a bunch of "useless" powers is, IMHO, a gift with dual (or triple) builds.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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... or using dual builds and taking advantage of the extra "free" power choices in the solo builds.