A game mechanic I've always wondered about
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2012-08-22 14:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.
I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves).
Positron
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Well Posi, any chance of it being change a little? Like 50% of the Buff will work on you while 100% on Allies/Other Players?
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Thanks for the clarification, Mr. Miller.|
Originally Posted by Positron
Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.
I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves). |
The reason I asked is, one of Hawk's big points with Nature Affinity was that he "ensured almost all of the powers could be used while solo." That got me to thinking about just how many buff-set powers are locked out of being used on their users.
A further question would be, what would the likelihood of this design implementation being revoked come out to? I figure, conceptually, that a Thermal Defender should have the ability to use their own shields to protect themselves. The same goes for Empathy: why can't you grant yourself Fortitude, or heal yourself in an emergency? Understandably, powers like Absorb Pain would still be others-only due to the -healing. It doesn't make sense to me that so many buffs are behind lock and key to the person who makes use of them.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Ah, so they feared CoDzilla.|
Originally Posted by Positron
This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves).
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Are there any mechanics that would let a buff from something like... Ice Shield affect the caster, but at a much lower power? So in the case of Ice Shield, it would do, un-enhanced, 15% Def Melee/Smash/Lethal for allies, and I dunno... 5% for the caster?
And if there were, would the devs consider it?
Ehhh I'm on the fence with this one. If there is anything this game needs to keep promoting, it is teaming with other players. Brutes are the tankmages in this game as it is, at least, that's how it seems much of the time. I think there should be a strong need for a defender on a team, as an example.
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Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. But I feel like Buff sets should be applicable to those who use them, not restricted to "use only when on a team." Sure, that encourages more teaming, but for people who primarily solo those powers are essentially useless, and that's no fun.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Ehhh I'm on the fence with this one. If there is anything this game needs to keep promoting, it is teaming with other players. Brutes are the tankmages in this game as it is, at least, that's how it seems much of the time. I think there should be a strong need for a defender on a team, as an example.
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EDIT: In an RP setting, this lockout gets especially hilarious. For some reason the /Poison Corruptor can't figure out how to hit himself in the face with Alkaloid. :P
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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If classes with a support primary or secondary focused on buffing others could use their buffs on themselves, to a limited degree... might that not encourage more people to play them as their powers would be usable even if there was no team, rather than people thinking "I might not get a team, so I'll not roll x or y"?
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Ehhh I'm on the fence with this one. If there is anything this game needs to keep promoting, it is teaming with other players. Brutes are the tankmages in this game as it is, at least, that's how it seems much of the time. I think there should be a strong need for a defender on a team, as an example.
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To build on the whole "no tankmage" point of view, I have a hard time viewing Defenders/Corruptors as tankmages even if they were allowed to buff themselves. We technically already have tankmage-like power combinations in Controllers (Dark/Rad, anyone?) and a literal take on that notion in Crab Spiders.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
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Originally Posted by Zortel
If classes with a support primary or secondary focused on buffing others could use their buffs on themselves, to a limited degree... might that not encourage more people to play them as their powers would be usable even if there was no team, rather than people thinking "I might not get a team, so I'll not roll x or y"?
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I have a defender that can be viewed as a "tankmage". They already exist in the game. I really like the idea of buffs giving a reduced amount to the caster or being able to target yourself.
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Well, I guess we can look at the new sustain mechanic for blasters and see how that turns out in the end - like I've said in the past, for several of the new sustain powers it is like having a constant speed boost when it comes to endurance recovery, and having a spirit tree/triage beacon on you at all times.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
To build on the whole "no tankmage" point of view, I have a hard time viewing Defenders/Corruptors as tankmages even if they were allowed to buff themselves. We technically already have tankmage-like power combinations in Controllers (Dark/Rad, anyone?) and a literal take on that notion in Crab Spiders.
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(which is awesome, by the way)
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Who said we needed anything?|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
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I think allowing support AT's to buff themselves would make the ATs much more attractive to players than they are now. Hell, five out of eight powers in Empathy can't be used on the caster, which means if you're going to solo, you might as well forget about rolling that set unless you're a Controller.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I don't think so. I think some people will solo which you can't change, but others will be more inclined to play the ATs and on teams as they still work good with teams. Also teaming IMO is still the best way to level unless you are being farmed/PLd.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Who said we needed anything?
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Uh, I did, and you completely agreed with me:Quote:
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Originally Posted by JayboH
-snip- If there is anything this game needs to keep promoting, it is teaming with other players. -snip- I think there should be a strong need for a defender on a team, as an example.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.
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Not really. People solo because they like to solo. People team because they like to team.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
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In my experience people who aren't interested in teaming either don't roll support characters at all, limit themselves to those support characters that solo well or just accept slow soloing. I've never heard of someone who said "I hate teaming but I really, really want to play an Empath so I rolled one and always team with him while hating every second of it".
Also anecdotally when it comes to teaming I see a lot more strong solo characters than I do strong support characters especially at high level and Incarnate content. To me this indicates that a lot of people are rolling characters based in a large part on solo performance and then teaming with them.
The fact is in a game where a single character can solo content intended for a team of eight there's no real "need" to team at all. Most people who do so either do it for the specific rewards of, more likely, because they enjoy teaming.
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Yeah, I'm on the fence. I see both sides of the argument as valid.|
Originally Posted by Galactic_Blaze
I don't think so. I think some people will solo which you can't change, but others will be more inclined to play the ATs and on teams as they still work good with teams. Also teaming IMO is still the best way to level unless you are being farmed/PLd.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Not really. People solo because they like to solo. People team because they like to team.
In my experience people who aren't interested in teaming either don't roll support characters at all, limit themselves to those support characters that solo well or just accept slow soloing. I've never heard of someone who said "I hate teaming but I really, really want to play an Empath so I rolled one and always team with him while hating every second of it". Also anecdotally when it comes to teaming I see a lot more strong solo characters than I do strong support characters especially at high level and Incarnate content. To me this indicates that a lot of people are rolling characters based in a large part on solo performance and then teaming with them. The fact is in a game where a single character can solo content intended for a team of eight there's no real "need" to team at all. Most people who do so either do it for the specific rewards of, more likely, because they enjoy teaming. |
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I'll speak for myself here as that's the only person I can speak for:|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
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I don't often play support-heavy powersets because I like having the option to solo as well as to team. So instead of defenders I roll corruptors, masterminds and controllers who have the damage and tools to enable me to play them solo, and pick secondaries that can assist in those goals.
If those support-oriented powersets had a little something to give the caster for if they happen to be solo, I'd be more likely to roll them, which means there'd be more characters of mine that could help support teams.
My point is that by not avoiding team-support at the sake of solo-buffing powersets I'd be more likely to have a character I'd look for teams for, because I'd be thinking "If it's slow to get a team going I can still at least do some stuff by myself without lacking a lot of tools compared to other characters."
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... durrrrrrr. Sorry about that. To clarify, I DO think we should all team! However, I don't think the game's powers should be balanced around that in the "Cannot target self" mechanic; there's no real reason (that I can see anyway) that support characters aren't able to buff or use single target heals on themselves.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Uh, I did, and you completely agreed with me:? ? ? |
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
It's a tricky balance, no doubt. I'd think we would see more forcefield and sonic resonance defenders for sure, if this was ever changed. Forcefield would be able to softcap themselves with just SOs and sonic would be resistance capped with epic armors, probably - I'm thinking defenders when I discuss this topic by the way.
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At the very least, could we consider looking at allowing something more from the Empathy powerset to help the user? My SO and I often duo as our Defenders, but it's becoming a bit troublesome as I have to constantly watch her health bar, seeing as Heal Bunny can't do much for self-preservation with set designed almost exclusively around healing.
Soloing seems very difficult for her, which seems a bit harsh of a penalty for someone wanting to be able to heal others well.
TL;DR- It seems a little odd that the game's premiere healing powerset can't keep itself alive.
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I personally think Empaths would benefit the most from the ability to target themselves. They'd go from having three usable powers to at least six (assuming Absorb Pain is left alone-- it'd defeat its own purpose if you could cast it on yourself).
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Originally Posted by JayboH
It's a tricky balance, no doubt. I'd think we would see more forcefield and sonic resonance defenders for sure, if this was ever changed. Forcefield would be able to softcap themselves with just SOs and sonic would be resistance capped with epic armors, probably - I'm thinking defenders when I discuss this topic by the way.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Yeah there is only one for sonic resonance.
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Sonic has four powers usable while solo: Sonic Siphon, Sonic Cage, Sonic Dispersion and Liquefy. They'd get a great deal of benefit as well.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Yeah there is only one for sonic resonance.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I agree. Due to having younger children I have developed a habit of soloing more frequently than teaming. I have a hard time playing defenders, and only have two. I'm not forced to team as a defender, I just am forced to pick another AT |
Originally Posted by Galactic_Blaze
I don't think so. I think some people will solo which you can't change, but others will be more inclined to play the ATs and on teams as they still work good with teams. Also teaming IMO is still the best way to level unless you are being farmed/PLd.
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"Cannot target yourself."
Why is this?
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."