A game mechanic I've always wondered about
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
For point and reference (sorry about the enormous post size):
Support Set Soloability Chart
This color indicates a power is usable when solo
Cold Domination Infrigidate Ice Shield Snow Storm Glacial Shield Frostwork Arctic Fog Benumb Sleet Heat Loss |
Dark Miasma Twilight Grasp Tar Patch Darkest Night Howling Twilight Shadow Fall Fearsome Stare Petrifying Gaze Black Hole Dark Servant |
Empathy Healing Aura Heal Other Absorb Pain Resurrect Clear Mind Fortitude Recovery Aura Regeneration Aura Adrenalin Boost |
Force Field Personal Force Field Deflection Shield Force Bolt Insulation Shield Detention Field Dispersion Bubble Repulsion Field Repulsion Bomb Force Bubble |
Kinetics Transfusion Siphon Power Repel Siphon Speed Increase Density Speed Boost Inertial Reduction Transference Fulcrum Shift |
Nature Affinity Corrosive Enzymes Regrowth Wild Growth Spore Cloud Lifegiving Spores Wild Bastion Rebirth Entangling Aura Overgrowth |
Pain Domination Nullify Pain Soothe Share Pain Conduit of Pain Enforced Morale Soothing Aura/Suppress Pain World of Pain Anguishing Cry Painbringer |
Poison Alkaloid Envenom Weaken Neurotoxic Breath Elixir of Life Antidote Paralytic Poison Poison Trap Venomous Gas/Noxious Gas |
Radiation Emission Radiant Aura Radiation Infection Accelerate Metabolism Enervating Field Mutation Lingering Radiation Choking Cloud Fallout EM Pulse |
Sonic Resonance Sonic Siphon Sonic Barrier Sonic Haven Sonic Cage Disruption Field Sonic Dispersion Sonic Repulsion Clarity Liquefy |
Storm Summoning Gale O2 Boost Snow Storm Steamy Mist Freezing Rain Hurricane Thunder Clap Tornado Lightning Storm |
Thermal Radiation Warmth Thermal Shield Cauterize Plasma Shield Power of the Phoenix Thaw Forge Heat Exhaustion Melt Armor |
Time Manipulation Time Crawl Temporal Mending Time's Juncture Temporal Selection Distortion Field Time Stop Farsight Slowed Response Chrono Shift |
Traps Web Grenade Caltrops Triage Beacon Acid Mortar Force Field Generator Poison Trap Seeker Drones Trip Mine Time Bomb |
Trick Arrow Entangling Arrow Flash Arrow Glue Arrow Ice Arrow Poison Gas Arrow Acid Arrow Disruption Arrow Oil Slick Arrow EMP Arrow |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
What's kind of silly for the powers that 'can not target self' is that fact that they now effect everyone in the caster's radius EXCEPT the caster.
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My point is that by not avoiding team-support at the sake of solo-buffing powersets I'd be more likely to have a character I'd look for teams for, because I'd be thinking "If it's slow to get a team going I can still at least do some stuff by myself without lacking a lot of tools compared to other characters."
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Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.
I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves). |
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Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
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The people who are trying to solo are mostly skipping these powersets anyway.
The inability to target yourself would be more reasonable if the powersets that are ally-only were generally better at providing team support. But they aren't.
A side benefit for me with being able to target myself, I would be more apt to apply them to the team on more consistent basis because I would be more aware of when the power wore off.
You don't hit smiling monsters - Sister Flame
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You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.
I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves). |
Tactical Officers were originally promoted as being able to off-tank. They can't and never could do it effectively. They just have lots of DPS.
Engineers were originally purported to be the hardiest and most survivable of the three, especially due to a fast recharging ability to recharge their shields almost instantly. That got nerfed.
Science Officers were originally supposed to be healers and debuffers, and they do in fact have those tools.
What do we currently have, in actuality?
Science Officers. They are the best tanks and the best healers, because of their ability to heal themselves so effectively. After all, if I can heal you this well, why not cut out the middleman, grab aggro, and just heal myself?
Sadly, top tier content seems to be designed around that. Needless to say, I rolled a sci.
I'm only ladylike when compared to my sister.
My support toons tend to be debuffers. Mostly because the same powers I use solo tend to be effective while teamed as well, and I don't need to adjust my play style severely in order to achieve that effectiveness.
So until I can self target, there will be at least one less buffer in the game.
I often thought that Vigilence should be reworked to give Defenders a damage boost solo, with the ability to buff / heal themselves. However, all buffs, heals, and debuffs would be dimished while solo, and as the team size increases, the damage boost decreases, while buffs, heals, debuffs effectiveness would increase and the effect on the caster for heals and buffs decreases.
So on small teams Defender buffs, heals, and debuffs may not be as strong as they are, on mid-sized teams, they'd be the same, and on large times, they would slightly be increased.
I really like having the option to make a character whose power depends on being in a team. I'm currently playing two such characters, and enjoy the fact that I'm pushed into forming teams, rather than just defaulting to solo. (So are my seven teammates, I hope)
I'm glad that there are support sets that solo well too, and I play them.
"Only useable on others" is a legitimate disadvantage to give a power.
Just like "7 foot range" is. It would be nice to be able to use those powers on myself, just like it would be nice if all my Scrappers attacks had their range extended to 80ft so I wouldn't have to run around as much.
Or maybe I should play a Blaster instead?
Empaths would indeed benefit from self targetting. Fortitude itself is close to the entire Super Reflexes set. Adrenalin Boost makes it crazy, and turns the Empath into a Super Reflexes/Regen Scrapper with ranged attacks. I've played in an empath duo, I know the numbers bear out in real play here.
So rather than mahsing all support sets into one model, lets keep them diverse. If you want a self-targetting empath, play Time Manipulation. You can boost your own defence, recovery and regen (sort of) that way as awell as your team. You won't be able to buff a single ally as well as an Empath, but that's balance.
It's a tricky balance, no doubt. I'd think we would see more forcefield and sonic resonance defenders for sure, if this was ever changed. Forcefield would be able to softcap themselves with just SOs and sonic would be resistance capped with epic armors, probably - I'm thinking defenders when I discuss this topic by the way.
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Culex's resistance guide
The pattern I've noticed here is that the more inclined a support set is to healing and/or buffing (newer sets like Time and Nature notwithstanding) the less powers it gets to use solo. That seems a little unfair considering that debuff-heavy support sets have most-if-not-all of their powers available for solo play.
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Not letting buffers buff themselves would be equivalent to having the powers of a debuffer effective only for one's teammates but not for oneself.
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Debuffers currently do pay for their self-buffing to some degree against AV's and Elite Bosses with purple triangles.
Radiation Infection wont provide the team the same margin of safety that Force Field or Cold shields do in that situation.
Whether that's enough to balance the inability to self-buff, I'm not sure.
Debuffers currently do pay for their self-buffing to some degree against AV's and Elite Bosses with purple triangles.
Radiation Infection wont provide the team the same margin of safety that Force Field or Cold shields do in that situation. Whether that's enough to balance the inability to self-buff, I'm not sure. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Even for villains, its not a big enough part of gameplay.
It would be better if the "only affect team" powers were noticeably better at helping a team than the "affect everyone" powers, like someone said earlier.
Take Storm and Force Field. Storm allows you to solo well, FF less so. But on a team, when the FF-er rocks up, you get a sense of security that Storm doesn't give you. You know you're getting 40% extra defence unless the FF Defender is asleep at the keyboard, whereas the Stormy gives you maybe a comparable to hit debuff on someone who might be over there by now, and if the Defender can close first.
That's a good balance in my opinion. Solo-able set with some shaky team support vs rocksolid team support that doesn't solo as well (but still gets some self buffs btw). Both sets have a niche.
Newer sets specifically Time, kind of upsets this balance. Everyone including the caster gets the buffs reliably. I cant see a downside, and consequently some of the older sets look a bit lacking.
I'm still confused as to why this limitation hasn't been lifted yet, considering the recent lift of the Teleport/Flight pool ban for Kheldians on the Beta Server.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
I agree. Furthermore, debuffing the foe is nearly mechanically equivalent to self buff. That's why Dark Miasma does so well. The -30% Resistance in Tar Patch is equivalent to a +30% Dam self-buff. The -Regen is also equivalent to higher DPS. The insane amount of -ToHit is equivalent to buffing oneself to the Soft Cap. The -DAM is equivalent to buffing oneself with extra Resistance.
Not letting buffers buff themselves would be equivalent to having the powers of a debuffer effective only for one's teammates but not for oneself. |
On one hand, debuffs are always useful solo or grouped, and they can be stronger than similar buffs. Resistance debuffs, for example, increase all damage (base + enhancement + procs + pets, etc) while damage buffs only buff base damage.
On the other hand, debuffs are effected by enemy resistance (purple patch and otherwise), need to hit (can be an issue with accuracy issue or mob placement), have a target cap, etc. Buffs will help you against anything you target, but can't always be used on yourself.
Dark Miasma in particular is great at soloing because it has many layers of protection:
* Control: fear (aoe), hold, stun (aoe)
* Avoidance: +def, -tohit (aoe, tons of it)
* Mitigation: -dmg, +res
* Heal
* Pet (aside from other abilities, it's a second target to soak harmful effects)
* Slow
* Offense: -res, -regen
On top of that, many of those effects are long lasting, so even if you get nailed with some form of CC, your enemies will still be feared, they'll still be tohit debuffed, your pet can still heal you, etc.
Personally, I found Rad more frustrating to play than Dark. I can respect how powerful Rad is, but I hated how a single CC could instantly knock so many of its survival tools offline.
I agree. Furthermore, debuffing the foe is nearly mechanically equivalent to self buff. That's why Dark Miasma does so well. The -30% Resistance in Tar Patch is equivalent to a +30% Dam self-buff. The -Regen is also equivalent to higher DPS. The insane amount of -ToHit is equivalent to buffing oneself to the Soft Cap. The -DAM is equivalent to buffing oneself with extra Resistance.
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Small idea: The new animation used for Inner Will could be used for self buffs like Speed Boost, Heal Other, etc.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Personally I've always felt that the best way to buff the buff-centric sets is to have the ally buff powers grant the owner an un-enhanceable auto-power simply for owning the ally buff. It doesn't need to be as powerful as the ally buff and the general strength could be adjusted up and down or even eliminated based on how much help the set needs. Cold Domination for example doesn't really need anything but similar powers in Thermal Sonic and FF probably could benefit form that.
Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
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So I'm not quite sure if allowing such things would encourage soloing, but rather, those who already solo, may try out different ATs.
I love to team, my favorite AT is Scrappers. It was made for soloing.
But I know from a concept/theme standpoint, some of those allie only abilities, I'd love to see usable on the caster, even if it was at just 25% the normal strength.
A Cold Dom or Thermal Rad, able to to shield themselves and would a 4-6% Buff to your Defense or Resists really be that game breaking?
Helpful, possibly not considered worth the END cost while solo, but so much more in the theme of the sets.
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I've always felt that the "cannot target self" mechanic was a very anti-immersive mechanic that was pretty much the game saying "No, we don't want you to play that way."
I would be perfectly fine with simply removing it altogether. If it did require some balance then it seems that the latest power changes that have conditional results would be the way to go about achieving whatever balance issues were raised.