A game mechanic I've always wondered about


Adelie

 

Posted

I've always felt that the "cannot target self" mechanic was a very anti-immersive mechanic that was pretty much the game saying "No, we don't want you to play that way."

I would be perfectly fine with simply removing it altogether. If it did require some balance then it seems that the latest power changes that have conditional results would be the way to go about achieving whatever balance issues were raised.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
Sonic has four powers usable while solo: Sonic Siphon, Sonic Cage, Sonic Dispersion and Liquefy. They'd get a great deal of benefit as well.
Oh crap, I thought you were talking about self-useable buffs.


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Posted

For point and reference (sorry about the enormous post size):

Support Set Soloability Chart
This color indicates a power is usable when solo

Quote:
Cold Domination
Infrigidate
Ice Shield
Snow Storm
Glacial Shield
Frostwork
Arctic Fog
Benumb
Sleet
Heat Loss
Quote:
Dark Miasma
Twilight Grasp
Tar Patch
Darkest Night
Howling Twilight
Shadow Fall
Fearsome Stare
Petrifying Gaze
Black Hole
Dark Servant
Quote:
Empathy
Healing Aura
Heal Other
Absorb Pain
Resurrect
Clear Mind
Fortitude
Recovery Aura
Regeneration Aura

Adrenalin Boost
Quote:
Force Field
Personal Force Field
Deflection Shield
Force Bolt
Insulation Shield
Detention Field
Dispersion Bubble
Repulsion Field
Repulsion Bomb
Force Bubble
Quote:
Kinetics
Transfusion
Siphon Power
Repel
Siphon Speed

Increase Density
Speed Boost
Inertial Reduction
Transference
Fulcrum Shift
Quote:
Nature Affinity
Corrosive Enzymes
Regrowth
Wild Growth
Spore Cloud
Lifegiving Spores
Wild Bastion

Rebirth
Entangling Aura
Overgrowth
Quote:
Pain Domination
Nullify Pain
Soothe
Share Pain
Conduit of Pain
Enforced Morale
Soothing Aura/Suppress Pain
World of Pain
Anguishing Cry

Painbringer
Quote:
Poison
Alkaloid
Envenom
Weaken
Neurotoxic Breath

Elixir of Life
Antidote
Paralytic Poison
Poison Trap
Venomous Gas/Noxious Gas
Quote:
Radiation Emission
Radiant Aura
Radiation Infection
Accelerate Metabolism
Enervating Field

Mutation
Lingering Radiation
Choking Cloud

Fallout
EM Pulse
Quote:
Sonic Resonance
Sonic Siphon
Sonic Barrier
Sonic Haven
Sonic Cage
Disruption Field
Sonic Dispersion
Sonic Repulsion
Clarity
Liquefy
Quote:
Storm Summoning
Gale
O2 Boost
Snow Storm
Steamy Mist
Freezing Rain
Hurricane
Thunder Clap
Tornado
Lightning Storm
Quote:
Thermal Radiation
Warmth
Thermal Shield
Cauterize
Plasma Shield
Power of the Phoenix
Thaw
Forge
Heat Exhaustion
Melt Armor
Quote:
Time Manipulation
Time Crawl
Temporal Mending
Time's Juncture

Temporal Selection
Distortion Field
Time Stop
Farsight
Slowed Response
Chrono Shift
Quote:
Traps
Web Grenade
Caltrops
Triage Beacon
Acid Mortar
Force Field Generator
Poison Trap
Seeker Drones
Trip Mine
Time Bomb
Quote:
Trick Arrow
Entangling Arrow
Flash Arrow
Glue Arrow
Ice Arrow
Poison Gas Arrow
Acid Arrow
Disruption Arrow
Oil Slick Arrow
EMP Arrow
The pattern I've noticed here is that the more inclined a support set is to healing and/or buffing (newer sets like Time and Nature notwithstanding) the less powers it gets to use solo. That seems a little unfair considering that debuff-heavy support sets have most-if-not-all of their powers available for solo play.


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Posted

What's kind of silly for the powers that 'can not target self' is that fact that they now effect everyone in the caster's radius EXCEPT the caster.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zortel View Post
My point is that by not avoiding team-support at the sake of solo-buffing powersets I'd be more likely to have a character I'd look for teams for, because I'd be thinking "If it's slow to get a team going I can still at least do some stuff by myself without lacking a lot of tools compared to other characters."
This goes for me as well. Versatility is good. If "teammate only" powers were changed to be usable on the caster, even with reduced magnitude of effects, I would be MUCH more likely to play certain sets I've been avoiding (I'm looking at you, Empathy).


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Positron View Post
Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.

I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves).
I'm literally speechless. Anyone who was here at the beginning can probably figure out why.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?

The people who are trying to solo are mostly skipping these powersets anyway.

The inability to target yourself would be more reasonable if the powersets that are ally-only were generally better at providing team support. But they aren't.


 

Posted

A side benefit for me with being able to target myself, I would be more apt to apply them to the team on more consistent basis because I would be more aware of when the power wore off.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
The people who are trying to solo are mostly skipping these powersets anyway.

The inability to target yourself would be more reasonable if the powersets that are ally-only were generally better at providing team support. But they aren't.
Compared to what?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Positron View Post
Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.

I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves).
I used to hate this, but then I played Star Trek Online. Love that game but..

Tactical Officers were originally promoted as being able to off-tank. They can't and never could do it effectively. They just have lots of DPS.

Engineers were originally purported to be the hardiest and most survivable of the three, especially due to a fast recharging ability to recharge their shields almost instantly. That got nerfed.

Science Officers were originally supposed to be healers and debuffers, and they do in fact have those tools.

What do we currently have, in actuality?

Science Officers. They are the best tanks and the best healers, because of their ability to heal themselves so effectively. After all, if I can heal you this well, why not cut out the middleman, grab aggro, and just heal myself?

Sadly, top tier content seems to be designed around that. Needless to say, I rolled a sci.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
Compared to what?
I don't play emp because it is completely useless to me solo. I don't always have time, or the attention span(kids) to be a completely reliable team member. Therefore I build my toons to be able to solo. There is more to it than that, but that will have to suffice.

My support toons tend to be debuffers. Mostly because the same powers I use solo tend to be effective while teamed as well, and I don't need to adjust my play style severely in order to achieve that effectiveness.

So until I can self target, there will be at least one less buffer in the game.


 

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I often thought that Vigilence should be reworked to give Defenders a damage boost solo, with the ability to buff / heal themselves. However, all buffs, heals, and debuffs would be dimished while solo, and as the team size increases, the damage boost decreases, while buffs, heals, debuffs effectiveness would increase and the effect on the caster for heals and buffs decreases.

So on small teams Defender buffs, heals, and debuffs may not be as strong as they are, on mid-sized teams, they'd be the same, and on large times, they would slightly be increased.


 

Posted

I really like having the option to make a character whose power depends on being in a team. I'm currently playing two such characters, and enjoy the fact that I'm pushed into forming teams, rather than just defaulting to solo. (So are my seven teammates, I hope)
I'm glad that there are support sets that solo well too, and I play them.

"Only useable on others" is a legitimate disadvantage to give a power.
Just like "7 foot range" is. It would be nice to be able to use those powers on myself, just like it would be nice if all my Scrappers attacks had their range extended to 80ft so I wouldn't have to run around as much.
Or maybe I should play a Blaster instead?

Empaths would indeed benefit from self targetting. Fortitude itself is close to the entire Super Reflexes set. Adrenalin Boost makes it crazy, and turns the Empath into a Super Reflexes/Regen Scrapper with ranged attacks. I've played in an empath duo, I know the numbers bear out in real play here.

So rather than mahsing all support sets into one model, lets keep them diverse. If you want a self-targetting empath, play Time Manipulation. You can boost your own defence, recovery and regen (sort of) that way as awell as your team. You won't be able to buff a single ally as well as an Empath, but that's balance.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
It's a tricky balance, no doubt. I'd think we would see more forcefield and sonic resonance defenders for sure, if this was ever changed. Forcefield would be able to softcap themselves with just SOs and sonic would be resistance capped with epic armors, probably - I'm thinking defenders when I discuss this topic by the way.
My sonic defender is already really close to the defender cap for smash/lethal resistance. 66%, goes up to 73% if he gets cardiac core paragon. Might get 75% without it when the IO set stuff goes through. Has no resistance set bonuses currently. Being able to buff myself, other resistances (except psi) would just get up to 53% without epic shield (epic shield will only be able to cap a few). It'd help, at least. A lot of non smash/lethal damage in higher levels.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
The pattern I've noticed here is that the more inclined a support set is to healing and/or buffing (newer sets like Time and Nature notwithstanding) the less powers it gets to use solo. That seems a little unfair considering that debuff-heavy support sets have most-if-not-all of their powers available for solo play.
I agree. Furthermore, debuffing the foe is nearly mechanically equivalent to self buff. That's why Dark Miasma does so well. The -30% Resistance in Tar Patch is equivalent to a +30% Dam self-buff. The -Regen is also equivalent to higher DPS. The insane amount of -ToHit is equivalent to buffing oneself to the Soft Cap. The -DAM is equivalent to buffing oneself with extra Resistance.

Not letting buffers buff themselves would be equivalent to having the powers of a debuffer effective only for one's teammates but not for oneself.


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Debuffers currently do pay for their self-buffing to some degree against AV's and Elite Bosses with purple triangles.

Radiation Infection wont provide the team the same margin of safety that Force Field or Cold shields do in that situation.

Whether that's enough to balance the inability to self-buff, I'm not sure.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony View Post
Debuffers currently do pay for their self-buffing to some degree against AV's and Elite Bosses with purple triangles.

Radiation Infection wont provide the team the same margin of safety that Force Field or Cold shields do in that situation.

Whether that's enough to balance the inability to self-buff, I'm not sure.
Considering that the Purple Triangles don't really become common until late game on major teams, I don't think this is enough to keep the lack of self-targeting the way it is. EBs/AVs do not the whole game make.


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Posted

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Even for villains, its not a big enough part of gameplay.

It would be better if the "only affect team" powers were noticeably better at helping a team than the "affect everyone" powers, like someone said earlier.

Take Storm and Force Field. Storm allows you to solo well, FF less so. But on a team, when the FF-er rocks up, you get a sense of security that Storm doesn't give you. You know you're getting 40% extra defence unless the FF Defender is asleep at the keyboard, whereas the Stormy gives you maybe a comparable to hit debuff on someone who might be over there by now, and if the Defender can close first.

That's a good balance in my opinion. Solo-able set with some shaky team support vs rocksolid team support that doesn't solo as well (but still gets some self buffs btw). Both sets have a niche.

Newer sets specifically Time, kind of upsets this balance. Everyone including the caster gets the buffs reliably. I cant see a downside, and consequently some of the older sets look a bit lacking.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
I agree. Furthermore, debuffing the foe is nearly mechanically equivalent to self buff. That's why Dark Miasma does so well. The -30% Resistance in Tar Patch is equivalent to a +30% Dam self-buff. The -Regen is also equivalent to higher DPS. The insane amount of -ToHit is equivalent to buffing oneself to the Soft Cap. The -DAM is equivalent to buffing oneself with extra Resistance.

Not letting buffers buff themselves would be equivalent to having the powers of a debuffer effective only for one's teammates but not for oneself.
There are pros and cons to buffs and debuffs.

On one hand, debuffs are always useful solo or grouped, and they can be stronger than similar buffs. Resistance debuffs, for example, increase all damage (base + enhancement + procs + pets, etc) while damage buffs only buff base damage.

On the other hand, debuffs are effected by enemy resistance (purple patch and otherwise), need to hit (can be an issue with accuracy issue or mob placement), have a target cap, etc. Buffs will help you against anything you target, but can't always be used on yourself.


Dark Miasma in particular is great at soloing because it has many layers of protection:
* Control: fear (aoe), hold, stun (aoe)
* Avoidance: +def, -tohit (aoe, tons of it)
* Mitigation: -dmg, +res
* Heal
* Pet (aside from other abilities, it's a second target to soak harmful effects)
* Slow
* Offense: -res, -regen

On top of that, many of those effects are long lasting, so even if you get nailed with some form of CC, your enemies will still be feared, they'll still be tohit debuffed, your pet can still heal you, etc.

Personally, I found Rad more frustrating to play than Dark. I can respect how powerful Rad is, but I hated how a single CC could instantly knock so many of its survival tools offline.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
I agree. Furthermore, debuffing the foe is nearly mechanically equivalent to self buff. That's why Dark Miasma does so well. The -30% Resistance in Tar Patch is equivalent to a +30% Dam self-buff. The -Regen is also equivalent to higher DPS. The insane amount of -ToHit is equivalent to buffing oneself to the Soft Cap. The -DAM is equivalent to buffing oneself with extra Resistance.
Actually against even cons a 30% resistance debuff is closer to a 60% damage buff in effectiveness since it increases you final damage as opposed to your base damage and most people have at least a 95% damage buff form enhancements already.


 

Posted

Personally I've always felt that the best way to buff the buff-centric sets is to have the ally buff powers grant the owner an un-enhanceable auto-power simply for owning the ally buff. It doesn't need to be as powerful as the ally buff and the general strength could be adjusted up and down or even eliminated based on how much help the set needs. Cold Domination for example doesn't really need anything but similar powers in Thermal Sonic and FF probably could benefit form that.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
While I love to build my characters to solo AVs and do other such awesome things. Outside of doing that, normal missioning, I always prefere a team over soloing.

So I'm not quite sure if allowing such things would encourage soloing, but rather, those who already solo, may try out different ATs.

I love to team, my favorite AT is Scrappers. It was made for soloing.

But I know from a concept/theme standpoint, some of those allie only abilities, I'd love to see usable on the caster, even if it was at just 25% the normal strength.

A Cold Dom or Thermal Rad, able to to shield themselves and would a 4-6% Buff to your Defense or Resists really be that game breaking?

Helpful, possibly not considered worth the END cost while solo, but so much more in the theme of the sets.


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