A game mechanic I've always wondered about
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2012-08-22 14:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I said it years ago ...|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm literally speechless. Anyone who was here at the beginning can probably figure out why.
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... but I'll repeat myself just 'cause I'm lit like the Hindu Festival of Diwali -- the devs @ release were looking for tankmages in the wrong places. They thought range + (de)buffs + controls were more dangerous than melee + damage.
Excepting, of course, Smoke Bomb.
The amazing thing is how long they held on to the idea that "distance = defence" (well into I6). They didn't grok that distance (via KB and OMG huge repel like Force Bubble), in CoH, usually lowers outgoing DPS more than it increases incoming mitigation. Whoops.
Cue my usual screed about FF being hard done by via decisions that are not, in any way, applicable to how we, the players, have viewed the game since release.
FWIW, Nalrok's list is misleading with regards to FF. It's one one of the weakest soloing (de)buff sets in the game (blue-side) despite having 7 of its powers available while solo. Because, TA DA, the devs overestimated the value of distance, by any means available, at release.
Then again, maybe the devs DID know that FF sucks ****s solo unless you have pets ... and that's why, IIRC, FF has never been ported to corruptors.
And, while I'm at it, what's up with defender Force Field Generator for defenders having a larger base value than Dispersion?
Again, hicc, maybe it's just the craft beer talking. But maybe not.
Every time you target yourself, Mot kills a kitten.
Please, think of the kittens.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
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I do, but then I think of Mot. Mot > Kitten
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
Every time you target yourself, Mot kills a kitten.
Please, think of the kittens. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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And now I'm hungry.
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
Every time you target yourself, Mot kills a kitten.
Please, think of the kittens. |
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Another thing to consider:
If we had the ability to target ourselves, we would also become valid targets for our own attacks any time we are Confused.
Would you enjoy queueing up a power like Short Circuit and getting hit with a confuse effect just before it fires, resulting in it draining YOUR endurance.....instead of the entire group of enemies you were standing in the middle of?
PBAoEs would hit YOU when confused.
A Confused Mastermind who clicks Nearest Target->Attack my target would have his own pets instantly gank him. That would make participating in a BAF very painful for them.
It would also very likely cause bugs that make your attacks hit you even when not confused. Remember the bug on Blaster Burn that caused it to damage you when you placed the Burn patch? Imagine random bugs cropping up all the time that make, say, your tier 9 nuke useless because it hits you too.
And all that is on top of having to change the name of Empathy to Selfishness.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Like all the random bugs that instead of damage your target, heal them instead? If we are so worried about introducing bugs we should probably stop introducing any new powers and sets at all. Sound good? Or should we let the same process of finding and quashing bugs that has worked for the last 8 years handle this too?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Another thing to consider:
If we had the ability to target ourselves, we would also become valid targets for our own attacks any time we are Confused. Would you enjoy queueing up a power like Short Circuit and getting hit with a confuse effect just before it fires, resulting in it draining YOUR endurance.....instead of the entire group of enemies you were standing in the middle of? PBAoEs would hit YOU when confused. A Confused Mastermind who clicks Nearest Target->Attack my target would have his own pets instantly gank him. That would make participating in a BAF very painful for them. It would also very likely cause bugs that make your attacks hit you even when not confused. Remember the bug on Blaster Burn that caused it to damage you when you placed the Burn patch? Imagine random bugs cropping up all the time that make, say, your tier 9 nuke useless because it hits you too. And all that is on top of having to change the name of Empathy to Selfishness. |
I run a traps toon on the baf all the freaking time. Guess how many times I have been killed by my own trip mines, or been killed by my lore pets...
C'mon Claws, this is a little thin. Just because people want to target themselves doesn't mean they are all of a sudden not interested in supporting teammates. You are better than this hyperbole.
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Actually, MM pets already automatically attack their master when their master is confused. And MMs still rule the BAFlands.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
A Confused Mastermind who clicks Nearest Target->Attack my target would have his own pets instantly gank him. That would make participating in a BAF very painful for them.
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Game, set, match. That's what it comes down to. To elaborate, though, I solo for two reasons:|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Not really. People solo because they like to solo. People team because they like to team.
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1. I just like to play by myself and not deal with other people's respective needs and desires. Not all the time, at least.
2. There aren't always people I want to team with available. That's not a value judgement on what makes a "good" team-mate so much as my own mood being incompatible with teamwork.
What this means is that, come hell or high water, I WILL solo at least sometimes on any character I make. In turn, this means that I need a character who's not just "able" to solo, but who solos well. I can't, therefore, play a "team-only" character for any stretch of time.
What that DOESN'T mean, though, is that I'll refuse to play a support role when I'm put in the position to fill one. That's exactly what I do with my Masterminds when I'm on a team - I switch my secondary from working on my pets to working on my team, and I have a lot of fun doing it. But that's usually on a Mastermind who got to the level he's at mostly through solo play.
Basically, allowing me to play traditionally team-centric AT by myself, and allowing me to do well at it, means I'm actually in a position to play support, which then makes me available to your team which needs support. But if that's ALL I can do, then I'll never be in this position because I will abandon the entire AT and go play one that solos better. As I have.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Being a valid target for your own attacks when confused isn't hyperbole. It would be a natural result of being able to target yourself.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Like all the random bugs that instead of damage your target, heal them instead? If we are so worried about introducing bugs we should probably stop introducing any new powers and sets at all. Sound good? Or should we let the same process of finding and quashing bugs that has worked for the last 8 years handle this too?
I run a traps toon on the baf all the freaking time. Guess how many times I have been killed by my own trip mines, or been killed by my lore pets... C'mon Claws, this is a little thin. Just because people want to target themselves doesn't mean they are all of a sudden not interested in supporting teammates. You are better than this hyperbole. |
I find it amusing that I'm considered unreasonable because I take the stance that it isn't reasonable to want to get everything our way.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Is that a bad thing, though? I mean, I get that the point of confuse is to get you to attack your team-mates, but doesn't it make sense that you're so confused you hurt yourself?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Being a valid target for your own attacks when confused isn't hyperbole. It would be a natural result of being able to target yourself.
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Also, I suspect targeting yourself with come with a specific flag, such as the mypet/notmypet that might be useful for weeding these situations out. But even if it's not, shooting yourself with your own gun does strike me as something that a confused person might do. I had a school mate who struck a staple into his own finger because he apparently didn't know how a stapler worked. And because he was stupid, let's not mince words here.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Having to change the name of the set from Empathy to Selfishness isn't? |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Being a valid target for your own attacks when confused isn't hyperbole. It would be a natural result of being able to target yourself.
I find it amusing that I'm considered unreasonable because I take the stance that it isn't reasonable to want to get everything our way. |
I don't think you are unreasonable at all. I think you are capable of better arguments than this...
Dark Astoria, Storm Shamaness. They can O2 Boost themselves. Not sure how to capture it on a screenshot, but try it for yourself.
**Damien**
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." ~Dr. Seuss.
"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. "
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I was only half serious. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Having to change the name of the set from Empathy to Selfishness isn't?
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The half serious part is that I see it as likely that the most common recipient of Adrenaline Boost would be the Empath themselves. Even on teams.
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| I don't think you are unreasonable at all. I think you are capable of better arguments than this... |
I have enough other stuff going on that I'm not very inclined to put a whole lot of energy into arguing about a video game's mechanics at the moment.
As a result, you get some half-***** arguments out of me.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
What I think to is that the dev team have thought about this already and may be trying something or may not since Positron was the first to post on this thread. Which I hope i is them leaving it on the drawing board vs the latter.
Also the whole confuse argument isn't a argument at all. It's ok to hurt your teammates when your confused, but not yourself? I think it would make confuse a more real power than one of those meh ones.
I don't envy the powers team that would have to try to tackle the rebalance problem if the "cannot target self" mechanic were removed. We'd be seeing a lot of powers get shifted, and probably not all for the better.
I wonder if the PvP mechanic of powers doing different things in or out of PvP could work here, or perhaps incorporate those alternate IO set bonuses somehow.
A downside I can see is that all buffing powers would end up having to look like an aura in order to work solo. Shields and ST buffs all require a target to use, and you get the appropriate animations for that. It would kind of make the powers a lot more generic looking, but I suppose people would live with that if they could use more powers while solo.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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I dearly miss that vision of the game. It was what initially drew me to City of Heroes and away from other games. I actually loved it when controllers had almost no offence and blasters were true glass cannons. It did make for a fun team dynamic where everybody had a role to play. |
Originally Posted by Positron
Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.
I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves). |
I started to lose a bit of interest in the game when the devs got in in their heads that every AT should be able to solo well, took away multiple controler pets and gave controllers containment, etc.
I think I may have been entirely on my own in that sentiment though, and more recently I have come to enjoy soloing controllers and defenders and no longer team much but enjoy it.
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Altitis cured this perfectly for me. I made some characters for teaming and some for solo play. I never expected my defenders or controllers to play off of teams. If I wanted to play off of teams I'd play my scrappers or blasters (if I wanted to live dangerously).
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Originally Posted by Zortel
If classes with a support primary or secondary focused on buffing others could use their buffs on themselves, to a limited degree... might that not encourage more people to play them as their powers would be usable even if there was no team, rather than people thinking "I might not get a team, so I'll not roll x or y"?
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^This! Very well said! Let us specialize in team play on some of our characters. By demanding every powerset be useful solo, due to balance you are often calling for a nerf to the team play. And one reason you don't see many high level empaths is that it is hard to find a team and be useful as a high level empath, because nobody really needs what you do for them like they did at lower levels.|
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
I really like having the option to make a character whose power depends on being in a team. I'm currently playing two such characters, and enjoy the fact that I'm pushed into forming teams, rather than just defaulting to solo. (So are my seven teammates, I hope)
I'm glad that there are support sets that solo well too, and I play them. "Only useable on others" is a legitimate disadvantage to give a power. Just like "7 foot range" is. It would be nice to be able to use those powers on myself, just like it would be nice if all my Scrappers attacks had their range extended to 80ft so I wouldn't have to run around as much. Or maybe I should play a Blaster instead? Empaths would indeed benefit from self targetting. Fortitude itself is close to the entire Super Reflexes set. Adrenalin Boost makes it crazy, and turns the Empath into a Super Reflexes/Regen Scrapper with ranged attacks. I've played in an empath duo, I know the numbers bear out in real play here. So rather than mahsing all support sets into one model, lets keep them diverse. If you want a self-targetting empath, play Time Manipulation. You can boost your own defence, recovery and regen (sort of) that way as awell as your team. You won't be able to buff a single ally as well as an Empath, but that's balance. |
The Incarnate stuff completely killed the high level game for me, turning everybody into tank mages, and I have sworn off it, and now only play characters under level 40. As soon as I get final level 38 secondary power, I'll play around a level or two and then retire the character and start a fun new one (which is easy with all the new powersets coming out)
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I'll agree with this, and I'll also add that on the support characters that I do make, I'd be more apt to actually take those powers, or at least take them earlier. Like my Sonic defender, or my Water/Ice corr. If I'm going to primarily try to solo...why hurry in taking any shields? Odds are, most of the time I'm not going to need them anyway (unless/until I need them for set mules or knockback procs). But then I don't take them, and figure "well I'm not going to be any good to a team anyway - I didn't take my shields!" Or my NRG/Kin corr, who didn't have Speed Boost until level 30 (where I basically had to to SB my Adept when I got it).
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Originally Posted by Zortel
I don't often play support-heavy powersets because I like having the option to solo as well as to team. So instead of defenders I roll corruptors, masterminds and controllers who have the damage and tools to enable me to play them solo, and pick secondaries that can assist in those goals.
If those support-oriented powersets had a little something to give the caster for if they happen to be solo, I'd be more likely to roll them, which means there'd be more characters of mine that could help support teams. |
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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Far as I am concerned, they are already being selfish as it has been at least 8 months since I have had AB cast on me... Or maybe it is because I rarely see emps anymore...|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I was only half serious.
The half serious part is that I see it as likely that the most common recipient of Adrenaline Boost would be the Empath themselves. Even on teams. |
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I'm not trying that hard. I have enough other stuff going on that I'm not very inclined to put a whole lot of energy into arguing about a video game's mechanics at the moment. As a result, you get some half-***** arguments out of me. |
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Oh no, a moderately survivable character with low HP, weak lethal damage, and no aggro control, crowd control, or debuffs that still falls on the low end of the contribution spectrum when it comes to most teams and leagues.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Look at how powerful 2 Empathy/Anything Defenders are when buffing each other.
Now remove the second player. That's why. |
PenanceжTriage
With the whole Empathy becoming Selfishness thing... think about it this way:
Those who already take Empathy and care about others will continue to care about others and buff teamates.
Those who never take Empathy and don't care about others will continue to not care about others and buff themselves.
The team in Scenario B is still getting overflow buffs that they wouldn't have gotten if that character didn't exist in the first place.
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Go play two empaths with a friend, and then say that |
Originally Posted by Patient_V
Oh no, a moderately survivable character with low HP, weak lethal damage, and no aggro control, crowd control, or debuffs that still falls on the low end of the contribution spectrum when it comes to most teams and leagues.
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I've done it for 40 levels (after which it got too boring) and can show you the numbers that make the empaths two Super Reflex/Regen Scrappers. Surviviability is not an issue, believe me.
Do you just feel like it might be weak, or can you back up your opinion?
And what's "weak lethal damage" mean?
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You've obviously never seen 2 Empathy/Sonic Defenders buffing each other before. |
Originally Posted by Patient_V
Oh no, a moderately survivable character with low HP, weak lethal damage, and no aggro control, crowd control, or debuffs that still falls on the low end of the contribution spectrum when it comes to most teams and leagues.
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I'll lay it out:
Beyond soft-capped defenses, with no holes to any position or type.
+60% damage. +78.75% with Assault running. That puts a Defender pretty close to Blaster base damage. Also, permanent fast snipe on the sets that have one.
170% global recharge. AB being permanent makes it very easy to make Hasten permanent as well.
A better than Reconstruction heal available every 2 seconds at those levels of recharge.
Capped (or close to it) regeneration and recovery via the 2 Auras.
Stackable mez protection.
Since all that would be possible on a self-targeting Empathy Defender before IOs are even considered, you could focus ALL of your IO slotting on +Max HP bonuses, which is the only thing not available in Empathy. Defenders have the same max HP as Blasters. You could focus quite a bit on damage bonuses too, and surpass the damage output of a Blaster on a consistent basis.
An Empathy/Fire Blast Defender would be pretty ridiculous if they could self-target with their buffs. It would outperform a Blaster in just about every way. The Blaster might win in sheer damage output, but over time the Defender would win there too, since damage drops to 0 when you're dead, and the Defender would spend much less time being dead.
Edit: I just did the math. With a theoretical power that deals exactly 100 damage a Blaster will deal 112.5 damage, while a Defender will deal 65 with the same power.
A Self-buffing solo Empathy Defender will have +78.75% damage from Vigilance, Fortitude, and Assault. That Defender will deal 116 damage with that theoretical power, surpassing Blaster base damage.
When enhancements are considered, final damage at 95% enhancement will be 177 for the Defender versus 218 for the Blaster. That's not a whole lot less damage when you consider how much more survivable a self-buffing Defender would be.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
This is one of those issues that I've always been mixed about. Although we have that "can't target self" issue, I'm not sure it is even too much of an issue. It all boils down to whether or not a class that is dedicated to supporting teammates directly is a gameplay issue. Having run a sonic defender for years now, I don't consider it any weaker than my other support sets. I suppose one of the benefits are that, for the debuffing sets I have to use abilities on every single enemy group, and to get it to be that frequent I had to IO out with recharge bonuses and use hasten. But with my sonic defender, I just pop the shields once every 4 minutes and then the team is a lot more durable than it was previously. With debuffs you have to worry about ambushes and the purple patch and team members drawing aggro, but the buffing sets are stable and consistent.
I can see the "half benefits" model working in some instances. Giving the full powers might be quite overpowered, though, since the example of sonic defender would lead to a player that has nearly capped resistances with an ambient -30% resist aura to enemies along with nukes, snipes, immunity to all mezz, and an intense KB aura for emergencies. At that point, you have to ask why you'd want to play a scrapper when a defender can do pretty much everything you need.
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