Anyone else get a chuckle out of this article?


Agent White

 

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MMOs are stagnating because they've barely evolved in the past ten years.
If you only define "massively" by "one million player and above", like the mainstream media did when it smelled the greens once Blizzard got in the game, yes, that is true.

Sticking to the good old informal meaning of the MMO term, when it simply meant a few hundreds or thousands of players sharing an experience in a persistent world, I still see plenty of innovation and so many games I don't even have time to *hear* about most of them, much less play.


...Then again, the notion games need to evolve doesn't resonate much with me. So things I find innovative might be "same old" to you.


 

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Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
You know, for all the grief people give States, they tend to forget, there would be no City of Heroes if not for him. Yeah, he made a lot of sketchy design choices, but he's still become a bit of a Scapegoat Creator. [/devilsadvocate]
That's not true. City of Heroes was the result of a lot of people's work and energy. Jack was an essential part and we should respect that, but so were many others.

As for the article. I think there are just too many MMORPGs, period. We have three (four if you count Super Hero Squad Online) MMOs in the Comic-book hero space and another coming down the pike. That's just spreading the market out too thin. There are literally hundreds of fantasy MMOs. And despite what everyone says, WoW isn't on top because it's the best game. It's on top because it's the first game to get enough right to hook people in. There are better games out there, but the 10 million or so subscribers have investment and friends in WoW, so WoW is where they stay.

Golden Girl made a crack at TOR earlier in the thread, but WoW has had even less content than than in the same timeframe. It's ridiculous, but Blizzard has those folks hooked.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by Paladiamors View Post
I'm actually really curious about The Secret World, but...yeah. I only have enough spare cash for one MMO right now.
Good game. I had some store credit at Gamestop so I bought it. But it's just not worth a sub for me. Like you, I'll check it out again when F2P.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
I disagree. I think teaming should be encouraged and rewarded, but not required. We all know what happens when teaming becomes required for something.
But also make sure that everything that can be done teaming is also available solo /tongueincheek


 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
Some fathers make terrible parents and are only good at planting the seed.
Indeed.

He did a fine thing by getting this crazy ball rolling, but would have served the game better by moving on after getting the backing organized.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

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Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit View Post
today's youth (and, regrettably, the 30 something crowd) have the attention span of a fruit fly gnat and are always on the lookout for the next big shiny thing which they then proceed to devour like a cloud of hungry locusts, leaving a wasteland of detritus behind while flocking to the next new horizon which will never quench their hunger.
Take away the negatives that the colorful language implies, and you're describing non-mmo video games, books, movies... any other form of entertainment that has an ending. If someone spends 10 hours reading a book and moves on, I wouldn't say that they have an attention problem. If someone completes the main arc in a single player game in 10 hours but hasn't uncovered every last easter egg planted, same thing. But only spend 10 hours trying to cover what an mmo has to offer ... you can get the gist of the game but not its full depth and complexity (to whatever extent they exist).

If entertainment needs to fit in that framework of time for a lot of people (say 30 min to an hour per session a few days a week) and provide a good return on time and money, then I think providing a F2P model works well. I wouldn't be out to call the whole genre a failure because of the failed expectations of a mismanaged project with a ginormous budget.


 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
WoW isn't on top because it's the best game. It's on top because it's the first game to get enough right to hook people in. There are better games out there, but the 10 million or so subscribers have investment and friends in WoW, so WoW is where they stay.

Golden Girl made a crack at TOR earlier in the thread, but WoW has had even less content than than in the same timeframe. It's ridiculous, but Blizzard has those folks hooked.
Agreed with this. SMFH.

I have a friend who has been a wow player since 04 and he refuses to try any other mmos. Only other MMO he tried was Aion cause a roomate bought it for him and then he quit a month later.

He said if I tried wow with him he would try CoH so I try Wow and then he still makes exuses to this day why he wont give coh a shot because he thinks WOW is the best mmo ever made.


 

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There are generally several issues with why MMO's don't do as well as expected.

1. The biggest is that they get sold to investors and publishers as the next big game that will break 30 million subscribers world wide. The reality is that if they break 100K they are doing good. If they break 500K and hold it they are a major success. But because they were sold as going to bring in millions of subscribers they are all considered a failure by their investors and publishing house.

You would think that at least the publishers would have a more realistic view of things.

2. Often are very focused on some aspect that caught the developers fancy and can turn out crippled or odd because of that. This isn't to say that a development team should never stick to their guns on what they are developing, but when you get consistent feedback that there are problems with the fundamental design/goals of the game you should at least consider it.

3. Unrealistic expectations of players. Far too many players appear to expect a mature game with lots and lots of content out of a just launched product. That isn't going to happen unless a product was 5 - 10 years in development where that time was spent all on content additions and not just rebuilding the game multiple times to get it right.

There are others but those are the big ones. I left off designing to the newest latest and greatest video cards/computers for example. That by the way is one of the reasons the the mega game still does so well you can run it on pretty much any functional computer out there without needing the newest most modern machine to enjoy it.


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Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
You know, for all the grief people give States, they tend to forget, there would be no City of Heroes if not for him. Yeah, he made a lot of sketchy design choices, but he's still become a bit of a Scapegoat Creator. [/devilsadvocate]
Umm, not to completely disagree, but Rick Dakan was the one who originally got the project started and Jack joined in later. Which was largely because while Rick had been a game designer for years he had little management experience. Jack is a huge fan of the superhero genre, but he was not the one who who started City of Heroes even if he did have more of the experience required to manage the team and bring it all the way to launch. That there would be no City of Heroes without Jack is a rather dubious claim. It certainly might have taken longer or been less successful, but not happening at all without him seems pretty unlikely.


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Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
I disagree. I think teaming should be encouraged and rewarded, but not required. We all know what happens when teaming becomes required for something.
Ditto. The 'teaming must be required' camp often will say things like, "If players can solo everything then no one will bother grouping." They never seem to realize that what they're really saying is that most players really DO want to be able to solo.

I don't play strictly solo, but I wouldn't give the time of day anymore to an MMO that required grouping to do ANYTHING past the early levels.


_________
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It's a safe bet there are more MMO players now than there have ever been.
They're just playing lots of MMO's, including some which you would say "are not MMO's."

Then you take a look at other more casual online games like Farmville and League of Legends and you see that the people who were playing MMO's have simply found a game more to their liking than "grind until you raid until you die online".


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In before potential threadlock.

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
And despite what everyone says, WoW isn't on top because it's the best game. It's on top because it's the first game to get enough right to hook people in. There are better games out there, but the 10 million or so subscribers have investment and friends in WoW, so WoW is where they stay.

Golden Girl made a crack at TOR earlier in the thread, but WoW has had even less content than than in the same timeframe. It's ridiculous, but Blizzard has those folks hooked.
The 800 pound gorilla isn't on top just because they were the first. Before that was EQ and before that UO. What they were the first to put out a quality product a cut above everyone else to that point, and then continued to keep the quality up over the years.

TORtanic, on the other hand, is how you spend nine figures on a game that would have been truly state of the art for 2004, only now its 2012 and players expect a hell of a lot more for that initial $60 plus and the $15 a month. Not to mention that the whole experience was pretty much the home PC version of the Buzz Lightyear ride at Disneyland.


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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
And despite what everyone says, WoW isn't on top because it's the best game. It's on top because it's the first game to get enough right to hook people in. There are better games out there, but the 10 million or so subscribers have investment and friends in WoW, so WoW is where they stay.
Yeah, WoW also came at just the right time, just as the internet really hit its stride, accessibility-wise, and just before social media and smart phones and iPads gave everyone a 24/7-entertainment/communication fix. If you pumped the Blizzard VIPs with truth serum, I'll bet even they couldn't tell you exactly why WoW was so successful. To say that it was a perfect storm is, I think, an understatement.

To their credit, Blizzard has managed their success well, but no one should assume that their success is repeatable. When we talk about the MMO industry, we should always remember just how young it is. Given the rate of change in technology and in the culture's response to technology, it's not surprising that the MMO model must undergo massive changes to remain relevant, just as the birth of the MMO model -- less than 15 years ago, by my count, and roughly 8 years ago if you're looking at the culturally relevant MMO -- was itself an adjustment to massive change.

The OP's linked article poses the question, "Is the MMO dying," as if the very suggestion were novel or provocative. But it wouldn't surprise me to see the MMO (as we know it) die off. What's surprising is the presupposition that it can't or shouldn't. We're not talking about the food industry here. Safe to say that online video games will continue in one form or another; beyond that, all that remains is speculation.


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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
They'd also need to make a Star Wars game first.
Oh burn!!


 

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Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
Umm, not to completely disagree, but Rick Dakan was the one who originally got the project started and Jack joined in later. Which was largely because while Rick had been a game designer for years he had little management experience. Jack is a huge fan of the superhero genre, but he was not the one who who started City of Heroes even if he did have more of the experience required to manage the team and bring it all the way to launch. That there would be no City of Heroes without Jack is a rather dubious claim. It certainly might have taken longer or been less successful, but not happening at all without him seems pretty unlikely.
not to put too fine a point on it, but if what i have read on the topic is to be believed, rick was, while a very smart man with some great ideas, a lot worse than having "little management experience" and the game was pretty much a disorganized mess till jack came in and actually focused things. Video games are commercial ventures as much as artistic ones, and a great idea with no coherent vision is going to crash and burn. Those who have been following the 38 studios collapse can attest to the fact that a good game and a lot of passion cannot save a critically incompetent business plan.


 

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Jack had a lot of great ideas and was able to get a great game launched.

His problem developed after launch when he got locked into seeing CoH as just a mechanized version of a table-top roleplaying game where, he, as the GM, kept the players in the dark not only about content and lore (which was mostly appropriate, otherwise, massive spoilers would have ruined the fun for a lot of folk), but also in the dark with regard to mechanics.

Jack thought that knowing the mechanics would make the game less fun. The problem with that is that the mechanics had a lot of flaws and imbalances and just wrong numbers. And Jack (and the powers team at the time, excluding Castle) would purposely turn a deaf ear to the players. On top of that, the players would find all sorts of loopholes and exploits which became nearly impossible to fix since... the Dev team run by Jack weren't in dialogue with the players and the players didn't know what the real numbers were to test.

On top of that, the playerbase would change the focus of the gaming habits (hating streetsweeping and using just the instanced missions for level-appropriate foes, e.g.) and Jack was slow to respond (if he ever did) to how the players wanted to play. He tended to be inflexible to what the players were supposed to consider to be fun.

On top of that, when the playerbase became loud enough to not be ignored, he was a public relations nightmare. I won't go into all the stories of foot-in-mouthisms he was guilty of.

On top of that, while keeping players in the dark over mechanics -- else our fun would be destroyed -- he took a paycheck from a player-guides company to publish all the mechanics.

On top of that, he negotiated with other companies to create a CoH-killer alternate Supers-MMO while putting CoH on a shoestring budget.

Jack deserves credit for the initial impetus of the game. He also deserves blame for all the inflexibility, the imperious attitude, and the betrayal of the game.


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Originally Posted by Zaloopa View Post
Required teaming has actually been the downfall of a few MMOs. Teaming should be user friendly and offer increased rewards, but it should never be a requirement. (I don't mean EVERYTHING should be available solo, just that you shouldn't hit a brick wall with your character's progress if you don't want to team.)
Kinda what I meant with that.

I think some rewards are perfectly acceptable to be locked behind group content.


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Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
I disagree. I think teaming should be encouraged and rewarded, but not required. We all know what happens when teaming becomes required for something.
When teaming was required for something it spawned a MMO madness!

What? You think MMOs started off solo friendly? No. They were team things and people came to them.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Ditto. The 'teaming must be required' camp often will say things like, "If players can solo everything then no one will bother grouping." They never seem to realize that what they're really saying is that most players really DO want to be able to solo.
MMO players are like children and starship captains. You can't give them what they want. You have to give them only what they really need.


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Like anything else in the world that involves business, the game (So to speak) is changing. The old model of Pay-To-Play will slowly die out, then Free-to-Play will take it's place.

Will a MMO ever has as much popularity or success as WoW? Probably not, but in this economic climate anything over 100k is good. If Blizzard were smart (And I have no doubt that they are), they should seriously contemplate a F2P model.

Now, if WAR ever becomes F2P, or just popular again, i'll be leaving very swiftly


I was doing some playthroughs of City of Heroes. Now they will serve as memories of a better time ...

 

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Originally Posted by TheShattered View Post
Like anything else in the world that involves business, the game (So to speak) is changing. The old model of Pay-To-Play will slowly die out, then Free-to-Play will take it's place.

Will a MMO ever has as much popularity or success as WoW? Probably not, but in this economic climate anything over 100k is good. If Blizzard were smart (And I have no doubt that they are), they should seriously contemplate a F2P model.

Now, if WAR ever becomes F2P, or just popular again, i'll be leaving very swiftly
Why should they contemplate a F2P model?

They're still in the millions of subcribers category, and like was said int he article, they're always losing people, who then come back at the start of a new expansion.

Staying P2P is still a smart move for them.

Going f2p would likely have people going "What? I have to pay for this new expansion content?"


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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Going f2p would likely have people going "What? I have to pay for this new expansion content?"
Oh, but they already charge for the expansions! WoW has a wonderful spot, where they charge to play, and they charge for the new expansions... and they have a bajillion players. Sure, their playerbase will slowly erode with time, but Blizzard continues to make a huge return on their investment.

I doubt the subscription-based MMOs will ever completely die out. They might fade a bit into the background, but they'll stick around. Soon enough the whole F2P market will become saturated (if it's not already), which'll leave a much smaller playing field for sub-based games.


Now would be a very bad time to be trying to push an MMO out on the market. In a few years, when the churn has died down some and expectations have dropped, the marketplace will probably be quite a bit more welcoming. Till then? Ouch.


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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!