So in Issue 24 Synapse confirms we can now finally build reasonable +Res like we can defense.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-08-07 16:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It must be bugged, when I get mezzed my toggles don't suppress anymore. Or maybe that is a PVP thing? NOTE: I mean in my combat attributes my resistances don't drop, I have monitored this on UG trials where the guys do that nasty mag 30 stun or whatever it is.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Don't they though? Toggle suppression anyone?
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Edit: In fact I am about to do a BAF, I will purposely get Sequined and look at my attributes.
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And then we will be bedazzled by your sparkling demeanor? |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
I will purposely get Sequined
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Your Brute, in Rest, has 2-3000% regeneration. Which is, again, implausibly high.
If you're expecting to become meaningfully tougher by incorporating some resist bonuses into your build, that's a strong possibility. And I don't think anyone will seriously dispute the claim that regeneration can outpace incoming damage if regeneration is high enough and damage is low enough. But you're talking about becoming totally unkillable, and that just won't happen, unless you're talking about stuff that probably wasn't going to kill you anyway. It won't. For one thing, the numbers would have to be hilariously high for that to happen. But moreover, such a thing would never make it through testing without revision. It's like speculating "what if this new damage proc one-shots Giant Monsters?" Mechanics-wise, a damage proc that deals a million damage is totally possible, but why would such a thing ever be allowed to happen?
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My point was that at floored Defense and floored resistance (-300%) that my brute that isn't even hp capped by sustain 600 DPS when regen capped. My point was that even at base (0% resistance and 50% mob to hit) that you wouldn't need near that much regen to sustain that much DPS.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Your Brute, in Rest, has 2-3000% regeneration. Which is, again, implausibly high.
If you're expecting to become meaningfully tougher by incorporating some resist bonuses into your build, that's a strong possibility. And I don't think anyone will seriously dispute the claim that regeneration can outpace incoming damage if regeneration is high enough and damage is low enough. But you're talking about becoming totally unkillable, and that just won't happen, unless you're talking about stuff that probably wasn't going to kill you anyway. It won't. For one thing, the numbers would have to be hilariously high for that to happen. But moreover, such a thing would never make it through testing without revision. It's like speculating "what if this new damage proc one-shots Giant Monsters?" Mechanics-wise, a damage proc that deals a million damage is totally possible, but why would such a thing ever be allowed to happen? |
Just been looking over a few of my builds, and it's quite surprising how beneficial this is without changing anything at all.
So you should be able to build for defense and still have more res than previously.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Agreed. However that's still an iffy proposition. You're basically gambling that incoming damage won't be enough to kill you.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
I disagree and reason why this game has one variable most others don't, hitpoint regeneration. The combination of Hitpoint regeneration + Resistance can create an immortality line that can be mathematically shown to where if DPS less then or equal to the combination of Regen + Resistance, you will be unkillable.
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That's still not superior to total avoidance of damage.
Note: I'm not saying that defense is just flat out better to the point you can ignore resistance and regen. It's not, because it's a ruthlessly binary situation. You either get hit or you don't.
However, as a form of damage mitigation, defense (complete damage avoidance) is basically your first, best choice.
Resistance (incomplete damage avoidance, damage fractionalization) is an important, but definitely secondary, mitigation.
Regeneration/Healing is a very distant third, because it isn't actually "mitigation". It's a essentially spackling over damage you failed to avoid.
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Ironically, Willpower is one of the sets I'm most worried about. Right now, one of the things that keep it on par with Invuln (in my mind) is the fact it's weaker to burst damage... but start adding extra s/l resist to it and it becomes harder and harder to burst.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Willpower. Average resists, a bit better of a tank. ANd you can still DIE pretty easy on a wp with no def, which is basically why wp is so good..layers.
So we dont actually..have this amazing resist + regen combo to make you a god. Sure you can get it with perhaps a resist toon and getting rebirth,. or AB or something, but a set that does it alone? Nope. |
For example, a WP Scrapper / Brute has somewhere around 50% to 55% s/l resist. Adding 20% s/l resist to it will increase its survivability to it by ~66% - 80%.
A WP Tank has somewhere around 65% to 70%. Adding 20% s/l to that increases its survivability 133% - 200%. (ie: They'd be able to take 3x as much damage.)
It's a perfect example of the problem with non-linear survivability. Willpower is one of the heartier sets, but it has the potential to reap significant gains.
As I said before, the devil is in the details, but it is worrying, to me.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Whereas with good def (leaving aside the RNG), if your not getting hit..you dont NEED any regen at all.
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Defense, without any other supporting mitigation (like +regen) is surprisingly brittle.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
My point was that at floored Defense and floored resistance (-300%) that my brute that isn't even hp capped by sustain 600 DPS when regen capped. My point was that even at base (0% resistance and 50% mob to hit) that you wouldn't need near that much regen to sustain that much DPS.
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The same could be said with regards to defense as well. If they can't hit you enough to reliably lower your HP, you're effectively immortal.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Those don't matter if they can't out DPS your immortality line. You could be a statue forever but you won't die.
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First off: Hey Sarrate! Where you been hiding?! Been missing our Taunt Mechanics Specialist!|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I can't speak for Starsman, but the first thought that came to mind was "power creep." Also remember that survivability is non-linear, so the sets with the higher inherent resistance will get more out of this change than sets with lower resistance. It also pushes characters closer to the caps, and that's where there are some distinct problem areas. For example, Brutes exceeding 75% res.
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Now, Second, it's not really power creep, but your second statement does get close:
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| Defense is easier to get and it has a higher average mitigation, but it is also easier to bypass (cascading defense failure, tohit buffs, accuracy buffs (higher mitigation floor), tohit buffs, autohit powers, etc) and can just get unlucky sometimes. Resistance is much harder to strip off (it inherently resists resistance debuffs) and it provides much steadier mitigation. |
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| I'm not saying that Res > Def, but don't sell its benefits short, either. Hard capped resistance can make a huge difference. |
We are already seeing Incarnate content having higher ToHit to offset the proliferation of Defense.
If you wanted to make IO paths "equivalent" for everyone, the right way (in my book) is to turn all self-buff powers in the game into Elusivity, keeping only IOs, Pool Powers and external buffs (Force Fields, Maneuvers, etc) as the sources of +Defense.
This will change the game so that defense IOing is the same for any player, regardless if they are Avoidance based or Resist based.
If I had a time machine, though (and the power to change anything once I traveled back in time) I would make sure that IOs did not granted defense, and instead granted HP buffs. Unlike what everyone thinks, adding more HP to players is not as exploitative as adding more resistance or defense. In fact, it' the least exploitable of stats in the game, and extremely easy to counter: if you feel everyone now has too much HP, just bump up damage of newer content a notch and you break even. It may make +HP slotting necessary, but thats part of power creep, and power creep just cant be avoided. It just can be directed in a more controllable way, and the only way to power-creep survivability [fairly] in this game is via +HP.
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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Haetron
Luckily, they've given themselves the caveat they dont balance around IOs, so if the game's broken with IOs, who cares, right?
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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
That's not at all what they mean when they say the game is not balanced around IOs.
They mean that no content will ever require that your character is IO slotted to be able to complete it. |
Seriously, I would use more words, but they'd be wasted if you can't see you're agreeing with me while you claim to disagree.
I'm with Arcana on this one. The potential for this to spiral into extreme unintended power creep is very high.
I know we can't be sure of any of this, but I'm certainly worried. This has game breaking potential.
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These new bonuses still have to compete with players that would rather soft-cap their defenses.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
What do you think of this? He stated mez resistance bonus become 2 resist bonuses + resistance to mez (IE s/l res and hold res) and that the resistance bonuses are being increased.
I think this change will GREATLY benefit my characters. I may be able to cap resistances besides fire on my /FA Brutes. In fact, I see little reason to chase Def anymore since I have no DDR. Granted Def will still be nice but I would rather cap my resistances then be defense soft capped on my brute. Thoughts on this? |
The sets that have these bonuses still have to be comparably useful regardless of the resis numbers.
[Also, Defense can have both typed and positional value; Resistance is limited to typed]
Beyond that, I can see it being useful to close gaps and/or bolster resis numbers in resistance builds (provided the set or the set's resis type is needed).
I can also see it being useful in high defense (or other mitigation) builds that may be looking for a different layer of mitigation to add.
The status resistance, however, may leave many people unimpressed:
Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers and Stalkers already have protection
Dominators have Domination
VEATs have access to both status resistance and protection
Blasters can attack through mez
That leaves Khelds, MMs, Corrs and Defenders to sort out the available benefit.
Then, players that are building with mez resis in mind have to weigh potential slotting against what's already available in 'procs' and uniques: Aegis, Impervious Skin and the proposed Blaster ATE (as well as Incarnate Abilities; Clarion, Melee and Control Hybrid and some Lore pets).
OT: I would be slightly disappointed if none of the Alphas ended up with any status resis mods.
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I have to agree with the folks that have run, or at least understand, the numbers (Arcanaville, Dechs, etc). We'll see how far this creeps, but there is a good chance for massive imbalance. I hope that will be caught by the PTB or that folks on the Beta server will be able to adequately abuse and thus show the potential problems.
I'll wait and see.
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I am a longtime Brute builder, who also make forays into Tanker and Blaster territory. For me being able to add "real" amounts of resistance will change how I build. First, it will give me new options as I choose an armor for a new character. For instance, being able to add 10-15% resist to one to four categories will dramatically change the performance on a high end build. Many good builds, once softcapped to S/L or S/L/En/Neg defense, will still lag in resist performance. The Dark Tanker project I have going, even with Might of The Tanker up, still has 45.5 Energy Resist. All of the other resist numbers are higher, and I have S/L/En/Neg softcapped on him. He is not 50'd yet, but I am worried how he will perform in the trials because of the sheer amount of energy damage I will face. If I can tweak the build and get even 5-10% more Energy resist on him I will feel great. Having over 50% resist is a good psychological buff lol. Having 60-70% resist, on top of def with a huge heal popping up regular? Yeah, that can tank.
Similarly, if Willpower could get just a touch more S/L resist thrown on regular? Very nice. Also, Invulnerabilty is not great at resisting anything besides S/L. But with 5% or so added here and there? (or 10%?) this armor type (already strong) will get a little less shaky in the modern game.
Not sure how I will exactly start changing some of my favorite builds but it will be fun experimenting.
For squishies, I would think that defense would still win for outright mez/secondary avoidance unless the status resistance aspect is very high, though they'll probably try to add in a little res with it to deal with RNG aggro.
The potential to even further ratchet up survivability for some melee characters is troubling. Tankers already seem superfluous in many situations and pushing the top end for other ATs even higher just makes their niche seem smaller. I think that we're either going to end up with really low resist numbers or we may have some stupidly unkillable Scrappers running around. My Energy Armor Scrap is drooling over the chance to layer some more resistance onto his defense and self-heal.
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That's why I once proposed a mechanic that would allow the Devs to curtail too much stacking of resistance and defense from IOs.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't have a specific objection to increased resistance bonuses, I just think the odds of nasty and irreversible unintended side effects from that increase are extremely high.
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Here's the problem I have with it. I think that it's going to make melee characters even more overpowered while not really providing a viable alternative for ranged characters. This is partly because Melee characters already have Defense or Resistance to stack it while ranged characters don't (or at least not to the same degree) and also due to how the sets were originally designed. The Melee damage sets almost all have Immobilization Resistance in their second set bonus while this was pretty much usless to melee characters before in I24 they'll all be picking up a chunk of resistance without needing to lose any of their existing defense or recharge bonuses.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'm with Arcana on this one. The potential for this to spiral into extreme unintended power creep is very high.
I know we can't be sure of any of this, but I'm certainly worried. This has game breaking potential. |
I can sort of see the pairing of Damage Resistance and Status Resistance as an attempt to make it useful to ranged characters but I don't think that it's going to be that valuable compared to the standard defense build.
EDIT: Ok, more thinking about this. I have an Cold/Ice/Soul Defender. He actually has pretty decent resistances to everything except psionic already. With this change it might actually be worth giving him a resistance-based build.
My big concern is that if this is handled poorly, it will give resistance-based sets, in their search for soft-cap Defense, even more resistance as well, while Defense-based sets will get little benefit out of it. That is my biggest concern, especially seeing where some of the status resistance bonuses are.
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Yup. With the +res ato and this change, it may be feasible to drop granite entirely on my stone tank. I say may because I really have no idea what the numbers actually are yet.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Just been looking over a few of my builds, and it's quite surprising how beneficial this is without changing anything at all.
So you should be able to build for defense and still have more res than previously. |
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I proposed a mechanism that would reduce the problem of overstacking defense bonuses as well.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
That's why I once proposed a mechanic that would allow the Devs to curtail too much stacking of resistance and defense from IOs.
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I would be very surprised if any of these resistance bonuses are more than 2%, with 0.75% seeming more probable to me. You can stick big numbers on the mez resists without affecting anything much though.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Just to join the bandwagon, I also proposed a mechanism that would reduce the problem of defense bonuses.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I proposed a mechanism that would reduce the problem of overstacking defense bonuses as well.
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I'm agreeing with you that IOs are not needed. I'm disagreeing with you that no one should care if the game is broken when IOs are used. That's why I had three parts to my post and not just the two parts you quoted.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
Seriously, I would use more words, but they'd be wasted if you can't see you're agreeing with me while you claim to disagree.
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Yeah, since Mez resists are pretty much garbage pail you can stick anything in there. Thank the heavens they finally switched out something useless (debt protection) to something almost useless (Mez Protection). |
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I would be very surprised if any of these resistance bonuses are more than 2%, with 0.75% seeming more probable to me. You can stick big numbers on the mez resists without affecting anything much though.
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Why are you quoting such low Res numbers? Based on what I see that would make no sense. Not thatI know what the Devs are thinking. But seriously, look at the building process. Say you give these sets 3-5% resists (huge, right?) They are going to be useful, but only somewhat. The only people who will benefit remarkably will be people who already have good all around resist armor sets. They can then abandon building for softcap and concentrate on their core game, resist. But for those who build for softcap, they will get only incidental resist added to their builds, because cramming anymore build goals onto a high end build is nigh impossible. As far as anyone else making a Resist Monster, good luck with that, I see a lopsided build in just about anyone else that tries. Say a Blaster gets capped S/L resist. What use is that? Seriously.
If you raise your resistances high enough you can match a 600 DPS sustainability with enough Regeneration. That above example isn't even including things like Defense (Since your defense is floored) and clicks like Healing Flames.
As for the becoming a perma statue, on my melee characters, I can count the number of times on my hand that I have been perma mezzed with my mez toggle up... 0.