So in Issue 24 Synapse confirms we can now finally build reasonable +Res like we can defense.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-08-07 16:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I'm going to have to see it before I can possible imagine what changes to my builds I'll have to make.
I'm not particularly good at speculation.
DOn't think it matters much.
Lazy to open Mids but say your run of the mill Tanker/Brute is sitting to about 80% S/L (spitballing), and at that point you aren't going to really get any benefit. Now if they did something like Elusivity where you would get off-primary res from your toggles that might be interesting. It's still better to build to softcap your defense, then let your resistance soak up the rest I'd wager.
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It could potentially make a great deal of difference for a Super Reflexes Tanker...
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
DOn't think it matters much.
Lazy to open Mids but say your run of the mill Tanker/Brute is sitting to about 80% S/L (spitballing), and at that point you aren't going to really get any benefit. Now if they did something like Elusivity where you would get off-primary res from your toggles that might be interesting. It's still better to build to softcap your defense, then let your resistance soak up the rest I'd wager. |
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I think it depends a LOT on what the base value of the resistance is.
Based on Synapse's comment all Resistance bonuses are becoming Double Res and Status Res so let's assume that the base multiplier is 1.25% for the moment. This means that sets which currently have a single res bonus will not get nerfed for that one and it's the same as the defense bonuses which fits with how the devs seem to do things.
So what would this mean in practice? Well most high level sets use Moderate, Large or Huge bonuses which would be 2.5%/3.125%/3.75% resistance respectively. So you'd need to get about 7 resistance bonuses to get 20% resistance to two damage types. If you wanted 20% resistance to all then you'd need about 28 (or 24 if you used Purple sets which currently have a Toxic resistance and will presumably get a Toxic/Psionic Resistance).
So overall I think that this will be a viable option for at least some melee characters but I don't see it really changing the general IO meta-game for most ATs. Unless the values are insane enough to be overpowered on Melee characters then I doubt that the current Defense/Recharge paradigm will change much. The characters who benefit the most are ones who already have lots of defense and no resistance (Super Reflexes, Arachnos Widows etc.).
Soft cap defense is better than hard capped resistance even on a tanker, and with everything else its no contest. With soft cap defense you are taking about 5% of incoming damage, while (on a tank) you're taking 10% damage with hard capped resistance. The difference only gets bigger from there.
However, if you have SR/EA or something else that lets you soft cap defense with little to no IO investment, then going for resistance would be more beneficial.
So I'd say most of the time its still better to chase defense, but on rare occasions the resistance could be useful.
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The tanker sitting at 80% Smashing/Lethal will see the most benefit from more smashing/lethal resistance. The tanker at 90% will see the least.|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
Lazy to open Mids but say your run of the mill Tanker/Brute is sitting to about 80% S/L (spitballing), and at that point you aren't going to really get any benefit. Now if they did something like Elusivity where you would get off-primary res from your toggles that might be interesting. It's still better to build to softcap your defense, then let your resistance soak up the rest I'd wager.
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I do have some small concern here though. Set bonuses don't vary by archetype, and resistance will become another one of those things where "It's easier to hit the cap on a tanker, but you can still do it on a brute."
Define 'reasonable.'
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You forget that enemies have a 50% miss chance even if you have no defense.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Soft cap defense is better than hard capped resistance even on a tanker, and with everything else its no contest. With soft cap defense you are taking about 5% of incoming damage, while (on a tank) you're taking 10% damage with hard capped resistance. The difference only gets bigger from there.
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Yeah I think this is the key question. I picked 20% as a target above but I'll fully admit that it was pretty much pulled out of my ***.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Define 'reasonable.'
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Now consider Purples there are 7 sets that currently provide a Fire/Cold Resistance and a Toxic resistance bonus. Let's assume that these become a Fire/Cold/Status Resistance and a Toxic/Psionic/Status Resistance bonus as implied by Synapse's post.
Suppose someone stacked five of these sets (not a bad idea for most Dominators and a lot of other characters could do it) what resistances should they get? They are effectively getting 20X the base damage resistance set bonus for F/C/T/P and 40X the base status resistance set bonus.
If we assume a 1.25% resistance base that works out to 25% F/C/T/P resistance and 50% status resistance. Is that reasonable? It's hard to say, 25% Defense is theoretically a 50% damage reduction but it's more fragile than Resistance. On the other hand adding 25% F/C/T/P to an Invulnerability Tanker is a pretty impressive benefit.
>.> unless the resistance numbers are insane or they rejiggle bonus order a bit Defense is going to still be the better choice to go with since 6 slotting powers to get up to a reasonable bit of resistance will take the majority of your slots.
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Actually lots of the immobilize resistance bonuses are two slot bonuses. With franken slotting you could get 3X resistance in a single power.
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Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker
>.> unless the resistance numbers are insane or they rejiggle bonus order a bit Defense is going to still be the better choice to go with since 6 slotting powers to get up to a reasonable bit of resistance will take the majority of your slots.
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Why? We have been building for defense for years, its time we make resist equal.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
This is going to be BAD.
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%41 for incarnate enemies but having every other attack hitting is far worse than having only 1 out of 20 attack hitting and you only need to reach %45 defense give or take a couple more for DDR meanwhile you need to reach resist cap which starts from %75 depending on AT and moves to %90. Even if defense and resist gets similiar bonuses defense is still better protection unless you get a few unlucky shots.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
You forget that enemies have a 50% miss chance even if you have no defense.
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I'm not sure how anyone could claim its going to be good or bad without seeing the numbers first.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Why? We have been building for defense for years, its time we make resist equal.
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And unless the numbers are ridiculously high, and the devs are not know for making changes on the ridiculously strong side... building for resist is still less beneficial than building for defense, all things being relatively equal.
More importantly, the doomsayers seem to ignore the fact that the devs have been making all the new enemies with powers that bust through defense, and now with this new build option, I'm sure we'll see a lot more enemies flinging around powers with -res.
Ultimately, if done correctly, this will give players another build route and more options when making a character, and that is definitely a good thing.
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36% for incarnate enemies, actually. They have 64% to-hit, which is why 59% is the soft-cap.|
Originally Posted by Kangstor
%41 for incarnate enemies but having every other attack hitting is far worse than having only 1 out of 20 attack hitting.
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But I didn't need to talk about any of that to counter the idea that 90% resistance wasn't letting 10% of the damage through. Even against enemies with 200% accuracy, 90% resistance and no defense will only let 9.5% of the damage through, not 10%.
I was just moaning about this in another thread. lol. teach me for opening my mouth without looking.
As mentions 20% res...but I think thats still to low. What is the rough ration, 1 def =2 res? I have heard people saying that anything under 20ish % extra def (like..building for the %) is not really worth the slots. SO therefore..anything LESS than 40 res, is not gonna be worth it?
I am not talking about say..your fire/rad corr, with just Manu/Scorp shield and NO extra build defence, getting 20% res to all (or whatever) from IO sets and see no difference. I am talking about the way you can take a blaster, totally build for range def, and soft cap it. There is NO way you will be able to do that with resist bonuses..in spite of the 2 being 'equal.'
As I said in the other thread..the very LEAST should be increasing the +res in Catalysed ATO sets to be a full double (or more), doubling the +res pvp IO, and adding a NON pvp +res IO at a low recipe lvl, like steadfast.
Oh not to mention..def is just..better. And easier to get significant amounts. As well as avoiding any effects tacked onto a power. Unless bonus resist somehow lets you..Resist any debuff effects a power has, when it tags you..
Well, building for resistance instead of defense does have some bonuses:
For characters without DDR, 10% defense is not necessarily better than 20% resistance, as the 10% defense can fail to defense debuffs pretty easily, but the 20% resistance will resist resistance debuffs, which are a lot less common anyway.
For characters with high regeneration, resistance doesn't have the damage spikes that defense does.
And on teams, defense buffs are still significantly more prevalent than resistance buffs.
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I can't speak for Starsman, but the first thought that came to mind was "power creep." Also remember that survivability is non-linear, so the sets with the higher inherent resistance will get more out of this change than sets with lower resistance. It also pushes characters closer to the caps, and that's where there are some distinct problem areas. For example, Brutes exceeding 75% res.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
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As usual, the devil is in the details. How strong are they, etc.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
I was just moaning about this in another thread. lol. teach me for opening my mouth without looking.
As mentions 20% res...but I think thats still to low. What is the rough ration, 1 def =2 res? I have heard people saying that anything under 20ish % extra def (like..building for the %) is not really worth the slots. SO therefore..anything LESS than 40 res, is not gonna be worth it? I am not talking about say..your fire/rad corr, with just Manu/Scorp shield and NO extra build defence, getting 20% res to all (or whatever) from IO sets and see no difference. I am talking about the way you can take a blaster, totally build for range def, and soft cap it. There is NO way you will be able to do that with resist bonuses..in spite of the 2 being 'equal.' As I said in the other thread..the very LEAST should be increasing the +res in Catalysed ATO sets to be a full double (or more), doubling the +res pvp IO, and adding a NON pvp +res IO at a low recipe lvl, like steadfast. Oh not to mention..def is just..better. And easier to get significant amounts. As well as avoiding any effects tacked onto a power. Unless bonus resist somehow lets you..Resist any debuff effects a power has, when it tags you.. |
I'm not saying that Res > Def, but don't sell its benefits short, either. Hard capped resistance can make a huge difference.
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With Incarnates the devs have gone to plaid when it comes to power "creep".|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I can't speak for Starsman, but the first thought that came to mind was "power creep."
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With hard capped to everything leagues I doubt sets are even a blip on their radar.
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Oh it can. Your right, I was more going on about teh bad points than the good. But again..HOW many builds and combos can ever actually get to the res cap, alone? SOme tank sets, some brutes, ws, pbs. Is that about it? Without incarnate powers etc.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Defense is easier to get and it has a higher average mitigation, but it is also easier to bypass (cascading defense failure, tohit buffs, accuracy buffs (higher mitigation floor), tohit buffs, autohit powers, etc) and can just get unlucky sometimes. Resistance is much harder to strip off (it inherently resists resistance debuffs) and it provides much steadier mitigation. I'm not saying that Res > Def, but don't sell its benefits short, either. Hard capped resistance can make a huge difference. |
Like I was saying..its not so much the bad points of either def or res to me, its the way we CANT actually get res is similar amounts. back to the soft capping blaster..sure, that can debuffed and die, but the same blaster cant even get near capped res. So the comparison doesnt work at all.
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Because the game is already ridiculously easy when building for defense, giving ways to layer defense or have resist take its place for defense based sets is just going to wreck the game balance further.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Why? We have been building for defense for years, its time we make resist equal.
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Luckily, they've given themselves the caveat they dont balance around IOs, so if the game's broken with IOs, who cares, right?
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Good points Major. Agree here..in fact..I dont even LIKE build my non def melee sets for any extra def. Well..besides a wp that I wanted to softcap to some stuff, just to see.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Well, building for resistance instead of defense does have some bonuses:
For characters without DDR, 10% defense is not necessarily better than 20% resistance, as the 10% defense can fail to defense debuffs pretty easily, but the 20% resistance will resist resistance debuffs, which are a lot less common anyway. For characters with high regeneration, resistance doesn't have the damage spikes that defense does. And on teams, defense buffs are still significantly more prevalent than resistance buffs. |
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That's not at all what they mean when they say the game is not balanced around IOs.|
Originally Posted by Haetron
Luckily, they've given themselves the caveat they dont balance around IOs, so if the game's broken with IOs, who cares, right?
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They mean that no content will ever require that your character is IO slotted to be able to complete it.
They don't mean that they don't balance power sets and IO set bonuses around what might be possible with combinations of those elements.
What do you think of this? He stated mez resistance bonus become 2 resist bonuses + resistance to mez (IE s/l res and hold res) and that the resistance bonuses are being increased.
I think this change will GREATLY benefit my characters. I may be able to cap resistances besides fire on my /FA Brutes. In fact, I see little reason to chase Def anymore since I have no DDR. Granted Def will still be nice but I would rather cap my resistances then be defense soft capped on my brute.
Thoughts on this?