If they put Dark Aura up for sale would you mind Wisp Aura going for sale too?
I would love to purchase the facepalm emote on the Paragon Market.
since I am not ever ever ever going to join the FBorg
Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Nobody tell Texarcana that his allegedly "limited" and "exclusive" costume pieces from the CoH and CoV collectors versions can still be bought today, if you happen to find an unused box. He'd probably try to hurt himself out of sheer despair.
Provided no money changed hands for those two auras I don't see why they wouldn't eventually add them to the store. Current users would have no legitimate grounds for complaint as they have no material investment in the auras.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
The ironic thing is, in making an argument that all "status" items should go away (e.g. capes), you validate my statement while simultaneously invalidate the "straw man" accusation you leveled at me. |
He did nothing of the sort!
You came into here with your demeaning argument and are still trying to twist things around to make it "true". It's not and inverse logic like that won't gain you any ground.
I'll point it out...
Some people may say, well, Texarkana, you did throw out that "Gen-Y/Whining" comment to the public that started it. My response would be, do people understand the reference? Generation Y is the '80s crowd of American children that were overly coddled and given trophies, regardless of deed. Warning, sweeping statement: The level of entitlement seen in that generation is unprecedented and actually preesnts quite a challenge to American business
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No one was whining about wanting stuff that they can't get or shouldn't have.
Most of the people here are people that HAVE all of this stuff and have said that they'd love to see that stuff open for anyone who wants it.
So, then you take THAT obnoxious stance and say that Sam's (and anyone else's) insistence that these items should be available to all proves YOUR point... LOL... So, you are exactly saying that Sam's opinion (and mine and almost everyone else that has posted in here) is a RESULT of being a whiny, greedy, coddled Generation Y'er.
LOL...
Okay, now I see how you've been misunderstood and are a voice of reason in this thread. (psst, that is sarcasm).
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
H. Intellectual Property -- I 100% agree with you regarding intellectual property, artificial scarcity, and replication as well as honoring licensing. But, as a matter of process and respect, a shift in philosophy going forward has to account for the past (even if it means grandfathering). Again, I think we're in agreement overall about availability of items on the Paragon Market. |
First off, exclusives do not necessarily remain permanent. More importantly, to me, Collector's Editions are generally more about the physical swank - the box, the book(s), the statues, maps, DVDs, and whatever else they throw in.
The fact that they continued to sell the in-game rewards on their own, for a while afterward, could be evidence against your claims that these things should never be attainable through other means. They already have been.
Regardless, it is just opinion. You claim you'd be upset. You claim some others would be upset. And there are plenty of posters in here that HAVE the exact same stuff that you're talking about stating that we'd be 100% perfectly fine with making that same stuff available to new customers.
I have the collector's edition. I would not see it as any breach of trust (nor contract) if they sold (or even GAVE AWAY) the rewards that I got from that, however long ago.
There is certainly no lock-solid RIGHT (legal or moral) way for the business to go about it. It's just opinions. In this tiny sample so far, you seem to be the only one that'd be against opening those items up (I know you're not the ONLY one in all of the playerbase, of course).
Going forward, I don't think thread replies are really appropriate as I think we've both made our views pretty clear, but if you want to PM me and discuss something further, I'll be glad to respond.
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Regardless, I believe they are great ideals for any community to set sights for.
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I don't think PMs are necessary at this point. What we're discussing is relevant to the subject of the thread, so long as we can keep off personal jabs.
A. Responding to you -- well, you quoted me, so a response seems polite. If I don't respond to a quote that probably should have a response, it's likely because I've been distracted by the real world and lost track of it...
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B. Regarding responding to "you" versus the "argument" -- my argument time and again has been to change things going forward, but honor the past. That view has not ever changed, even from years ago when talking about Veteran rewards not being pushed down (not that I expect anyone to recall my stances on anything outside of this thread). Furthermore, in this thread I stated the complications it causes for Paragon as my argument is not entirely egocentric.
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C. Regarding examples -- Capes, Auras and Vanguard Costume and Roman Pack -- those items were always available in game, just like enhancements. Now they're sold in the Paragon Market as a convenience. Arguably, not your best examples.
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D. Regarding examples -- pre-order sprints and helmets -- those items were exclusive to stores where they were purchased....Best Buy, Circuit City, Gamestop, Amazon, etc.....in order to shape consumer retail purchase.
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E. Regarding status in general -- you can make the argument that the game should be level-less then, since levels 2 through 50+3 are all signs of status versus someone entering the game. The rularuu pieces and the 5th column shield are unlockable. Titles are unlockable. I understand your view about accomplishment on the one hand, but clearly the designers see it slightly differently. If somone chooses to perceive level 2, capes, ascension armor, or the black wand as prestigious and a status symbol, that's a personal thing, but rest assured, not everyone thinks that way.
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There is a distinct difference between gameplay and cosmetics in any game, but most of all in MMORPGs. Let's assume for a moment that we want to make the game into some kind of impossible Mecca of complete customization where a player can have anything he dreams up. Even in this Mecca, characters will still have different levels of power because the growth of character power is the cornerstone of at the very least any traditional RPG's gameplay. In order for an RPG to function even absent of any cosmetics, it needs to have some form of character progression to where a character is unable to solve some situations at an earlier stage but becomes able to solve them later through a non-scripted, non-artificial overcoming of some limitation. Not only is this an unavoidable part of an RPG, it's also a large part of what makes it fun to play. We need progression of some form.
Herein lies the difference between gameplay and cosmetics when it comes to status. Gameplay advantages CAN be interpreted as status symbols, but the significance of this isn't what you interpret it as. This kind of advantage is a cornerstone part of the game, thus this status denotes not a superior player, but simply a player who has advanced farther into the game. This is not at all dissimilar from having seen, say, Lord of the Rings: Return of the King and trying to brag about it to someone who's only seen the Fellowship of the Ring and the Two Towers. Yes, you are farther ahead, but this is not an advantage to brag about, it is a natural part of watching a movie trilogy unless you happen to coordinate your moviegoing with another person specifically. Yes, some people will try to lord their gameplay advantage as a status symbol, such as "Ha! I can solo pylons in 10 seconds!" to which you can simply reply "That's a very short strip show, mate." Because - and here's the kicker - it doesn't matter.
City of Heroes is a game that doesn't exactly require great character power to progress through, thus excess character power is rarely a meaningful status symbol. It can be if excessive powere were your goal, but there's nothing stopping you from reaching it. Copy the other person's build and you're about three quarters of the way there. Sure, gathering the components might take a while, but that's what the game's about - progressing a character. At the end of the day, all a person lording his status is saying to you is "I have played more than you!" which can only ever been a good thing, because it means there's a lot more game left to play before it's over. And I mean that - in a good game, having more of it to go through is a good thing.
Now contrast this with cosmetics. First of all, there is no clear hierarchy of the "quality" of cosmetic items. Your instinct might (MIGHT) be to suggest that newer pieces with better textures and a higher polygon count might be "better" because they're of a higher visual quality, but that's not necessarily true. Better graphics don't necessarily make something look better. They simply give the artist better tools of expression, but it's up to the artist to deliver. Moreover, an artist saddled with working with TOO MUCH detail can still produce works of a lesser quality than one working with simpler designs. There's a reason old 2D spirte-based games age so much slower than 3D games of the time. Half-Life is now an ugly polygonised mess while going as far back as Marvel vs. Capcom gives you a game that's low-res, but still looks and feels damn good.
It's not entirely true that you can't grade cosmetics. The "general public" you can't, because there's no generally accepted scale of best to worst costume piece. However, YOU - you, Texarkana - still can, because that's a matter of taste and I'm sure you have pieces you like more than others. The trouble is that when you grade them from best to worst and compare that list to how I've arranged them, I can bet dollars to doughnuts that they won't match. And therein lies the problem - everybody's objective view of what's "better" is different, thus the pressing need to avoid putting artificial weight on costume pieces by trying to make some artificially more valuable than others. The more "equal" all cosmetics are, the greater each individual player's choice is.
Take Ascension, for example. A couple of years ago, Matt Miller put his foot in his mouth by saying that the Ascension set was so good that enabling it for characters lower than level 50 would be "an insult to the art team. Now look at Ascension and tell me what's so good about it that me using it would insult the people who made them. Is it that they have a higher polygon count? Is it that they look like standard-issue Fantasy armour? Is it that they have inbuilt auras? Because all of that stuff has been present in other sets that aren't level-locked to 50. But Matt Miller said the set is "better," and so it was essentially taken out of circulation. Many people simply don't like it and many who do like it want it for characters that aren't level 50. A number of people have, since, used it on costumes that have been drastically out of place with Ascension pieces put on them, as well. As a result, this artificial exclusivity of a costume set has more or less ruined it in my eyes and you know what? I barely see people use it these days. Maybe it's just my luck, but it seems to me that wanting to make Ascension exclusive to Incarnates as a representation of their status was a massive miscalculation.
Let's look at the "why" if it for just a second before I move on. Why is Ascension as an Incarnate status symbol a bad idea? Because... Is that what an "Incarnate" is supposed to look like? Why? Madamme Bellarose doesn't look like that. Hero One doesn't look like that. The Statesman doesn't look like that. Lord Recluse... OK, I'll give you that one. But the idea that "an Incarnate" had a specific look was the mistake that nearly tanked the entire lore behind the Well of the Furies. The attempt to turn our characters into their vision of what a god should be was the mistake, and the exclusivity of the Ascension pieces - born of that mistake - is what ultimately ruined the set. And to be quite honest... It's not a bad set if you have the character for it, which is all the more disappointing.
F. "Other people" -- (And this does get more argumentative with you personally...) I see hypocrisy that you can write in one post " that people only care what THEY have, not what other people have" and in the following post write "I don't want to see people using a specific costume piece because it's seen as prestigious in cases where it really doesn't fit the costume".
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Again, I'm not trying to control other people. I'm trying to extract from the game the factors which try to shape how other people express themselves. I want to take away the artificial weights from the various costume pieces such that a person's only driving priority is making something that looks good. What "looks good" is, obviously, up to the person to define and if that person chooses only what looks good and STILL comes up with something hideous... Well, that's the nature of taste. However, I still want to take out the artificial inflation of the value of costume pieces.
Looks in this game are not loot, and they shouldn't be treated like it. What a costume piece "cost you" should never factor into how much you want to use it on a character.
In fairness, the first quote was to convince Paragon that the Collector's Edition purchasers should be disregarded in order to make those items accessible to all on the paragon market; the second quote is about eliminating motivation by status. Nevertheless, although we're both spouting off opinion, you've served up two conflicting statements, one of which really shows some brass in dictating what people should or should not use based on your perception.
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And this does get into the subject of personal expression and "status," as well. I never meant to say that I'm against status in general, merely that I'm against status acquired by non-representative means. What I mean by this is I don't want people to buy their way into status or luck their way into status. I don't want people to have status because of what they own. I want status to represent a person's actions in the actual game, or possibly out of the game in terms of community interaction. A person with a great costume, a person with a great story, a person who helps other... Hell, even a person with a great build if he's the one that came up with it. I want status to mean that this has actually done something remarkable, not that he owns something artificially limited.
I actually quite like status as a general concept. It tells me who the people are I want to look at and draw inspiration from and who the people are I want to try and inspire. It doesn't have to be a rigid power structure and it doesn't have to be in my face, but I do want to know who's good at what. And again, when I say I want to inspire people, that doesn't mean I want to show off. Far from it - if I've found an idea that I think is great, I just want to share it with people and maybe they'll think it's great, too, and use it. Really, everybody wins that way.
You present me as wanting to control people, when the exact opposite is true. I want to put as much control as I can in the hands of the player without liming their toolset or giving them cues as to what's good before they have time to judge for themselves.
G. Regarding character assassination and demonising -- considering your choice of vocabulary and tone has been: "stoop", "misbegotten DVD edition", "steal your stuff" -- it does appear that you are trying to paint a picture of me (and others that share this opninon) for your benefit.
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I'm TRYING to stick to discussing the topic, but you keep rolling character assassination into it and using it as an argument. Considering I have to then untangle that ball, I kind of have to address it whether I want to or not, and I can't really state that you're intentionally insulting my intelligence without saying you're insulting, can I? Again - if you'd simply accept to stop with the character assassination and stick to the topic, then I wouldn't have any reason to keep talking about it, will I?
G*. Some people may say, well, Texarkana, you did throw out that "Gen-Y/Whining" comment to the public that started it. My response would be, do people understand the reference? Generation Y is the '80s crowd of American children that were overly coddled and given trophies, regardless of deed. Warning, sweeping statement: The level of entitlement seen in that generation is unprecedented and actually preesnts quite a challenge to American business.
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Somewhat sideways of the point, you can call somebody a "nice, kind person" and wish "nothing but the best" on him and still make that into an insult given the right context. And your context, I'm sorry to say, was one of using a term to insult another poster for holding an opinion different from your own. And I'd be OK with it, we all have moments like that, were you not continuously trying to justify it.
The ironic thing is, in making an argument that all "status" items should go away (e.g. capes), you validate my statement while simultaneously invalidate the "straw man" accusation you leveled at me.
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H. Intellectual Property -- I 100% agree with you regarding intellectual property, artificial scarcity, and replication as well as honoring licensing. But, as a matter of process and respect, a shift in philosophy going forward has to account for the past (even if it means grandfathering). Again, I think we're in agreement overall about availability of items on the Paragon Market.
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Again, I'm willing to give you specific case, but I'm not willing to agree with you on it. Luckily, all we need is a workable solution even if it doesn't stem from ideological agreement.
Going forward, I don't think thread replies are really appropriate as I think we've both made our views pretty clear, but if you want to PM me and discuss something further, I'll be glad to respond.
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*edit*
Took out the tags from my quotes to combat my post's erratic spacing.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Regardless, I believe they are great ideals for any community to set sights for.
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And again, Tex has a point - we probably shouldn't be arguing for absolute unlocking of everything. Even though I disagree with the concept of exclusive software just on a principle level, I keep thinking we ought to draw the line somewhere short of the other end. Let's be fair and say that people did indeed pay quite a bit of money for a purported "collector's edition" and focus on the game moving forward without going AAALL the way back. If we were making an official request, I'd feel comfortable requesting everything AFTER the old DVD Edition.
And another thing: Prestige Power Slide. This is the only power we have that's compatible with travel powers and yet alters the animation with which we run. In order to stop people from seeing it as more valuable than it is, we need to make it non-unique. My suggestion is to institute an alternative of it that has NO stats and NO vfx, but alters the running animation in the same way, then sell that in the Paragon Market. This way, Prestige Power Slide will still be unique in general, having a non-replicable visual effect and being a replacement sprint, while the rest of the people will still get access to a base-run-animation-altering power at the same time.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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After a year of exclusivity, items such as Wisp and Dark Matter that people missed should be purchasable.
Two years later, earnable in-game. What? Give it up for free?!! Yes, cause the train of exclusive items can relatively easily keep popping up fortnightly becoming a gravy train. |
I've been here for a long time. I've picked up lots of exclusive stuff over the years. And I agree with this 100%.
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Keep it exclusive for a while, then put stuff on the market. Maybe a year +?
Puts more funds into Paragons pockets, which in turn allows them to make more stuff. What's wrong with that? Sounds like a win-win proposition. |
I'll jump in with this side. I've been here since pre-launch. Period of exclusivity, period of For Sale, then acquirable in game.
That works perfectly fine by me.
...Dark Matter Aura?
Oh, the Tweet Thursdays, I completely forgot about those. Crap. >_<
I hope that stuff goes on sales eventually, I completely forget about the Twitter thing.
Ultimately, my point is if the Dark Matter Aura is put up for sale so should the Wisp Aura to be fair.
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Edited to add: Oh yeah. This argument. Teach me to respond to post 5 or 6 without reading through to be reminded how it would inevitably devolve. I forget how good you are at inciting this kind of stuff.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Some of my suggestions from posts i have done
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=195762&highlight=dbhellfist
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=278178&highlight=dbhellfist
Here is all My toons
http://img261.imagevenue.com/gallery...9625081-24.php
Some of my suggestions from posts i have done
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=195762&highlight=dbhellfist
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=278178&highlight=dbhellfist
Here is all My toons
http://img261.imagevenue.com/gallery...9625081-24.php
I'll jump in with this side. I've been here since pre-launch. Period of exclusivity, period of For Sale, then acquirable in game.
That works perfectly fine by me. |
Also, I'd like to see the "power aura" that the Trolls have in the latest SSA. So far, we have Battle fury and Dark Matter, but they're two separate auras. Plus, Atta got a fancy glow eyes aura, on top of the "power aura".
The best I can kludge together is either fire(I think one style of fire works better than the other, but I can't remember which is which offhand) armor with dark matter or regen with the toggle running.
I would love to purchase the facepalm emote on the Paragon Market.
since I am not ever ever ever going to join the FBorg |
When they make it avail on the paragon market, I'll gladly buy it. If not, then I'll gladly go without as I've been doing. Guess they figured everyone here has FB and twitter. They didnt even bother posting the problems about victory server stability on this forum, only on twitter and facebook.
-Female Player-
I think that all should be attainable in some way some easier than others. I an a vet and have been from issue 3 or so and do not like the fact the one set is only usable on level 50 or higher, or that it took me all damn day to unlock a aura of slime with a level 50 who i hate to play just so i can use it on one i started at 1 st. Paying for unlocks maybe a bit much but i don not have a issue with it giving vets options to use points to unlock stuff like this would be fine as well, paragon points that is. Some thing that lets you unlock a aura or some thin account wide for a vet like; capes, auras, stuff only unlock-able with merits and such as well. I for one do not do task forces and i for do not like raiding much as well. There is some cool costume parts but due to being locked behind different things in game can not be used. live up to to what this game calls its self city of heroes freedom free the stuff (or give a way to buy it).
Some of my suggestions from posts i have done
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=195762&highlight=dbhellfist
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=278178&highlight=dbhellfist
Here is all My toons
http://img261.imagevenue.com/gallery...9625081-24.php
I'll echo the general sentiment that I don't (wouldn't) mind when promotional items I've earned are made available sometime later.
I don't feel it undermines or devalues me/that item in any way. I've already had those items and gotten plenty of enjoyment from them, who am I to block others from the same?
![](http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x36/mayamyth/Oathbound/Oathbound2.png)
Exclusives are all fine and dandy on their own right, but costume exclusives are just not the right way to do it. You know, since pretty much the majority of the appeal of this game over other MMOs is its rampant customization.
If you want to make something exclusive, just make more pets, or redundant forms of travel powers. Dont hold valuable costume pieces back behind transparent gates.
I wouldn't mind if *any* exclusives I've acquired through various means over the years were made available to everyone.
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So as far as the thread is concerned i don't really have that much more to say. There is nothing i've gotten/unlocked over the years as one perk or another that i would be bothered if it was added to the market for points or even if it was given away through some other means. That includes my n00b Scooter and Jump Pack.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Works for me too.
Also, I'd like to see the "power aura" that the Trolls have in the latest SSA. So far, we have Battle fury and Dark Matter, but they're two separate auras. Plus, Atta got a fancy glow eyes aura, on top of the "power aura". The best I can kludge together is either fire(I think one style of fire works better than the other, but I can't remember which is which offhand) armor with dark matter or regen with the toggle running. |
I think that all should be attainable in some way some easier than others. I an a vet and have been from issue 3 or so and do not like the fact the one set is only usable on level 50 or higher, or that it took me all damn day to unlock a aura of slime with a level 50 who i hate to play just so i can use it on one i started at 1 st. Paying for unlocks maybe a bit much but i don not have a issue with it giving vets options to use points to unlock stuff like this would be fine as well, paragon points that is. Some thing that lets you unlock a aura or some thin account wide for a vet like; capes, auras, stuff only unlock-able with merits and such as well. I for one do not do task forces and i for do not like raiding much as well. There is some cool costume parts but due to being locked behind different things in game can not be used. live up to to what this game calls its self city of heroes freedom free the stuff (or give a way to buy it).
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I'll make this simple - let VIPs buy everything that is otherwise tied up in some indirect acquisition way, and make that a part of the service of being a VIP.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Exclusives are all fine and dandy on their own right, but costume exclusives are just not the right way to do it. You know, since pretty much the majority of the appeal of this game over other MMOs is its rampant customization.
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I have both of the auras and the facepalm /em (Which I love enough to have key-bound on almost all of my crew-
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
If you guys feel like you just HAVE to have exclusives for what-ever reason, that's fine... But making them non-exclusive after some period of time is more than fair in my opinion. The "Special Snowflakes" among us would still get to show off and feel unique for awhile that way, without locking out other players who might want those items down the line.
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
I know I see the Wisp Aura a TON and it was a promotional thing. With the ordeal behind the Tweet code Thursdays and the Dark Matter Aura a lot of people want it for sale. However, so far they have said no since its a promotional item.
So how would you feel if as a compromised they released the Wisp Aura for sale? I think it would sell fairly well as I see a LOT of people using this aura. Thoughts? |
![](http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53/Tyger42/minhsig1.png)
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I'm fully in favour of making all items available on the Market.
Auras, prestige slides etc have a value that's very character-concept specific. Most costume pieces do. If I have a long standing character idea (or a new one) for someone who slides along the ground on a ice patch the Prestige Slide becomes invaluable - for most other characters I couldn't give a toss about it.
I'd much rather see the slide go to characters which it fits than players who bought a certain verison of the game 4 years ago and use it as a status symbol because other players cant have it.
Same for wisp auras and everything else costume related like witch's hats and roman armour.
I have no problem with anything being "exclusive" in this game as long as the amount of time those things are exclusive is limited. If the Devs want to offer us some exclusive item then let it be exclusive for only like 3 or 6 months. After that period of time then EVERYTHING like this should eventually be released to the market so that everyone can buy if they choose.
Exclusivity is not a problem in MMOs as long as those things don't remain exclusive FOREVER.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
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--{=====> Virtue ♀
Furthermore, you don't get to accuse me of being... What was it?
Oh, right. Yeah, you don't get to make a comment like that and then proceed to snark at me for actually addressing it. If you make an accusation, then you better deal with the reply. And if you don't want to deal with the reply, then don't bring it up. This idea that you can sling insults at people and then proceed to mock them for responding isn't going to fly. If you want to discuss the point, stick to discussing the point. If you're going to character-assassinate people, then at least have the decency to accept the consequences.
Except for the fact that, as of right now, the Paragon Market is selling the Vanguard Pack once awarded as a LOYALTY REWARD that cost those of us who had it prior three months of uninterrupted subscription over the course of the seven year anniversary, the Cape and Aura unlocks that are were and are an in-game unlock which Jack Emmert himself went on a tangent to explain how they were status symbols (hence where "status" comes in) and the Roman Pack which has a whole variety of items normally unlockable via a Cimeroran badge and, if I remember correctly, some normally unlockable via the ITF.
The Paragon Market has already demonstrated itself as being the place to retro-actively buy content which was previously unlockable in ways other than money and previously said to be exclusive. Furthermore, the Veteran Reward programme, and now the Paragon Rewards programme, contain the "pre-order sprints" and I believe the "pre-order helmets" which were part of special purchase promotions and were, at least at one point, said to be exclusive. They aren't, not any more.
It makes no difference. Even if this one item remains exclusive, the question of exclusivity in general is moot. Pretty much everything that's been exclusive in the past has showed up in the market and I'm fairly certain that pretty much everything else that's exclusive now (like the Wisps aura) will show up, as well. Maybe not the DVD Edition stuff, granted, but even that's not out of the table. We've gone through a lot of developers in the last eight years. BABs said a lot of things wouldn't happen as long as he worked at the studio, as did Castle. As did Jack Emmert, for that matter.
I'm talking about status. I fail to see where I'm required to wait for you to bring up a topic before I can discuss it. And the reason I'm discussing it is because it's integral to the subject of exclusivity, as well as because it has been a frequently recurring topic of conversation whenever exclusivity is discussed. You didn't discuss it, no. So what? I did, because it's a topic that's interesting to me, because it's a topic that's relevant to others and because, frankly, it's an interesting topic to examine. If it's not interesting to you, that's fine. Don't discuss it. You're not the only person I'm addressing with this, as unless I'm mistaken, you're not the only person reading this forums. Yes, I responded to your post as a jumping-on point, but again - this doesn't prevent me from branching off into subjects that interest me but aren't directly relevant to your post.
Again, you're the one turning this onto a "me vs. everyone else" discussion and either browbeating people for daring to discuss topics you didn't bring up or always trying to bring this back to "your stuff." News flash, bud - no-one cares about your stuff. You can keep it. You can keep it exclusive, and aside from the occasional grumble, nobody is going to care. Because the question isn't and wasn't about that. It's a much broader question about the merits of "exclusivity" in general. If you want to have a grandfather rule for your stuff, fine. Have it, with my compliments. Because this isn't about your stuff, and your stuff staying exclusive is, I dare say, a small price to pay for ending this bad practice of exclusivity of virtual items that can be copied infinitely. If you don't see how that's relevant, that's fine, but there are others who will.
Finally, I bring up the concept of "status" as it relates to the concept of "collecting," which I would wager is relevant to the notion of a "collector's edition." Maybe if you spent less time trying to talk about how much my post doesn't relate to yours - as if that matters - you could actually see the connections and follow my conclusions. But no, you choose to see this as me specifically arguing against you specifically, when I'm not. I'm arguing a point, and it's largely irrelevant who's for or against that point for the purposes of the argument. You're the one who's arguing WITH ME instead of arguing FOR YOUR POINT. And arguing with me is a losing venture because I cannot be convinced by being argued with, I can only be convinced by being given a convincing argument towards a broader point than just "you're wrong, I'm right." I don't care about being right, I don't care about you being wrong.
I care about the subjects of exclusivity, collecting and status, as they pertain to the sale of previously exclusive items. I'll argue about other stuff, sure, but that's not as interesting.
And I agree that all previously exclusive items should be sold in the store. I'm sorry that me holding this opinion offends you, but that's simply what I believe. I don't question your character for holding a different opinion from mine, though I'm sure you'll find some way to claim that as you've done twice before. The "whiner/entitled" argument just seems so alluring for some reason. I'm simply of the fundamental belief that exclusivity cannot exist in a digital medium and faking it is a corruption of some of the medium's greatest strengths. To me, forcing exclusivity on items that can be copied infinitely in order to approximate the exclusivity of limited-edition physical media is no unlike creating a movie that consists entirely of text screens in order to more resemble a book. Yes, you can do that, but it misses the point of creating a moving picture (with sound) in the first place. Granted, I can see the benefit of having something like the Kindle that allows you to read books on a digital device, but that still uses the benefit of the media to its fullest, chiefly that it's a massive space and weight saver.
As I said before, I'm OK with you keeping your misbegotten DVD Edition stuff. That's not a big deal. Even though my fundamental belief goes against it, I'm not that much of an extremist to be unable to make an exception. Fine, keep it, it's not a problem. So long as it's that one thing, it's fine. So long as it's an exception to the rule, that's fine. It's practically impossible to shoot for 100% consistency in the results of our beliefs and I'm more than willing to accept this as the exception to my rule. Nobody's going to steal your stuff. Don't worry about it. Yes, people are going to occasionally make that comment, but so long as you keep in mind that "people" can't enact development rules, you're safe. I see no reason why you can't simply state your disagreement and leave it at that. What is this need to talk down to people who disagree and demonise them as you have? What do you gain by this, aside from people angry at you?
The question of "status" goes beyond just exclusive items. It's why I brought it up. Capes were never "exclusive," but needing to unlock them led to some people interpreting them as status symbols nonetheless. Some held having a cape as a mark of superiority. "See, my character is level 20 and yours isn't!" I heard a lot of arguments for why capes should remain locked to 20 that went along just this line, and I saw a lot of arguments that insisted we need "status symbols" in order to "show character progression." I argued then as I do now that character progression is a meta-game concept that's built into the actual game side of City of Heroes that doesn't need to be extended over the cosmetic side of it, citing customization and identity as one of the chief strengths of the game. I cited, further, that if people wanted to show progress, the costume editor fully allowed them to do this by choice via updating a character's costume to be "better" every few levels to simulate the acquisition of loot.
I know you'll cut me off and say "But I didn't say that!" and you didn't. I know you're not talking about capes or visual cues for levelling up or status symbols. Again I refer you to my "So what?" point. To me, the concept of exclusivity has direct correlations to the longstanding debate about "Capes at 20" and the evolution of it through the years up until putting cape and aura unlocks in the Paragon Market essentially ended it. These days, I'm the only one who still brings it up because it's done. It's settled. It's a non-issue. But to me, there are still lessons we can learn from "Capes at 20" both in terms of going forward with future content and in terms of how people react to costume pieces when they start to become seen as status symbols.
Here's how it all relates together - I don't want to see people using a specific costume piece because it's seen as prestigious in cases where it really doesn't fit the costume. Back in the "Capes at 20" days, I saw many people wearing capes over costumes that REALLY didn't work well with them. I get that capes are a big thing for tights super heroes, but I saw them used on virtually everything whether it looked good or not. To me, this is the ultimate corruption of what should be the game's central point - we create our own heroes. To give a costume piece extra weight by giving it some sort of "status" either by being exclusive or otherwise, to me, is to corrupt the whole system where our looks are separate from the game's mechanics. The whole point is that there are no game-side factors which force a certain look on us over another and we're free to choose based on taste and preference alone. You go back on that by attaching status to pieces, and making them exclusive is a form of attaching status to them.
I also have the inverse argument, and I'll give it with an example: I HATE Super Speed. I always have. It transpires, however, that I don't so much dislike the power or even the concept behind it (Saints Row: The Third did super running right) as I do the running animation we use with it, especially for women. In City of Heroes, run animations resemble slow jogs, so when you have a character slow-jogging at super speed, it turns my throat inside out. My solution? Find a power that swaps the running animation. That power? Well... Pretty much the only one which does that AND is usable with Super Speed is... Prestige Power Slide. Yeah, you can see how that goes. So I lamented on the forums that I didn't have that and how I couldn't buy one when I got a PM saying "Hey, I have one. Do you want it?" So now I have one.
But here's the thing - I don't really want any of the "exclusive" stuff. More specifically, I don't want any of that stuff because it's exclusive. I don't want Prestige Power Slide because it's exclusive. I want it because it's the only power that alters running animations. If, one day, we were allowed to customise the animation Super Speed used and a sliding or floating type animation were part of the choices, I'd stop using Slide immediately. It's clunky enough to toggle on and off as it is. Yet here I am, paying the price of exclusivity for an item that I don't really care whether it's exclusive or not. Because what's "exclusive" explores a side of the game that no other power does. It puts me in the position of wanting an exclusive item not because of its "collector's edition" status which is its key selling point, but because of how it works.
And to my mind, that's just wrong. It's like buying an entire for the sole reason of using its wheel rims on another car you'd rather drive and then doing nothing with the new one. I don't WANT a whole car, I just want four wheel rims. I don't even want the tyres. THIS is where the Paragon Market was supposed to shine - it was supposed to let me have just the stuff I wanted and none of the stuff I didn't want. Obviously, the Super Packs more or less went back on that idea completely, but even so - I don't want exclusivity. I want "stuff." Thus, making stuff exclusive just means people who need it for the "stuff" can't have it because that would ruin those who have it for the exclusivity.
The only way I can see this working is either with "commemorative" items that don't really explore a new concept (like the custom Arachnos logos, those are a great idea) or otherwise non-costume-related items like special titles. Really, if I could get Prestige Power Slide without going through the whole DVD Edition pack, I would have. Now because I can't, your items are one person less exclusive. And I haven't even used any of the others.
So secondly, you wrote all of that to essentially agree with me when you wrote: My contention has been that the legacy exclusive items should remain that way and if there's a philosophical change to no longer create exclusive items going forward, so be it. That should really be the end of the discussion between us...
But, since you opened a can of worms, let's go through things.... Going forward, I don't think thread replies are really appropriate as I think we've both made our views pretty clear, but if you want to PM me and discuss something further, I'll be glad to respond.
@Texarkana
@Thexder