If they put Dark Aura up for sale would you mind Wisp Aura going for sale too?

Collector's Edition? or Hero Gear Kit?

Seeing as how there were two ways to get that stuff back then there goes your exclusivity argument.

Personally as someone that bought the Hero Gear Kit, I've always agreed that the in game items from it should be made available in the Paragon Market. Which would require people that want it to "pay a premium".

Nice straw man, but what you're hearing is actually a consumer mentality - I have the money, let me buy what I want. And I, for one, approve.

If I wanted to stoop to your level, I could throw around words like elitism and jealousy, but it really doesn't come to that. These are simply people willing to use the Paragon Market for what it was designed - to buy things they would previously have had to unlock in other ways.

Personally, the fewer our "status symbols" became, the happier I'll be. Uniqueness should come from what a player has created, not what a player has bought, hence why I'd rather let everyone buy everything.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Calling a penalty for unnecessary roughness.

Sadly the attitude on many seems to dramatically change when you mention premium access to IOs and which tier permanent access should belong at.

I'm fine with the Wisp aura being up for sale.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I've been here for a long time. I've picked up lots of exclusive stuff over the years. And I agree with this 100%.

Indeed. Enough with people who think they're entitled to retain exclusivity in order to maintain some imagined elite status. It's not an egregious loss of value - value naturally changes over time. It's not dishonest any more than it's dishonest to sell an item at a higher price for a limited time, and then later offer the item again in a more widespread fashion at a cheaper price (or perhaps even give it away). These sorts of things go on all of the time. No, such disingenuous complaints are really just thinly-veiled excuses to maintain some sort of special snowflake status, and to keep those filthy little have-nots in their place in order to do so.

How is releasing a different aura a compromise?

For what it is worth, I have both auras and I don't have any problem with either being put on the market.

Edit:
Also count me in the camp that believes that all the exclusives should have only a LIMITED exclusive period attached before being widely released.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

I'm enjoying the fact that others are speaking my mind so well within this thread, so I'll just quote again!
Seriously, Tenzhi, you hit it on the head with how I see people that cling to exclusivity and demean those speaking for opening those things up as whiners with entitlement issues. They've got the lens the wrong way around...
And it seems like most of us stating favor for opening these sorts of items up for purchase are those of us who actually have all of this stuff.
I'd be happy if everyone could get my cape of the four winds, my prestige slide, my Arachnos cape and symbol, my wisps aura, my dark aura, my facepalm emote... Go ahead, buy yourself my loyalty rewards... I don't mind one bit. Please, have whatever fun you wish.
The less we cater to people who don't like this, the better this community will continue to be. That's my opinion about that, at least.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Yeah, you sound plenty entitled, so I have to agree.

How about practicing what you preach?

I have most of the exclusives, and I do NOT mind in the least other people getting them. As to your "going back on their word" argument, that doesn't hold water either, as all legal notices say that things can change without notice.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Honestly, I think that if it's a costume part, aura, etc, that isn't somehow unlockable in-game, it should be put up for sale.

Honestly, even powers like Power Slide should be put up.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

I wasn't around then, and I got it for ten bucks. U Mad?

Allowing someone else to buy it on the PMarket changes nothing. They can theoretically still get it now, they just have to be patient and possibly pay a bigger premium than you paid (or possibly MUCH LESS, like myself).

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

I had to stop reading the thread right here and quote this, because it's exactly how I feel. As far as I'm concerned, make everything available.

You don't want to "stoop" to my level, but those last two paragraphs sound high and mighty from a soapbox....nice.

Regardless of money, it's still an attitude of "gimme what I want". People are quick to say that I'm the entitled one and that I should practice what I preach, but they're the ones saying Paragon should change its position to meet their desire without regard that it puts Paragon in a position of having to dishonor and disrespect a prior commitment (with those that made such purchases). As previously stated, if Paragon wants to go forward with no more exclusive items, that's fine by me. I have no argument with that, but purchasers of collector's edition items have a reasonable expectation that those items will remain..."collectible"...in their limited quantity, regardless if it is intellectual or real world property.

Funny thing Snowy, I'm not really entitled or operating under a sense of entitlement, because I own them all already (kind of like you do too, apparently). You and I are living in the status quo, which is Paragon's established exclusivity of access to those items. People that think they should have a right to buy the items after the fact....that Paragon should lift the veil of limited-time-offer/collector's edition exclusiveness....they would be the ones feeling entitled.

And...whose talking about legal notices? Only you.... Going back on their word does have an impact on established customer good will and undercuts any possibility of offering something else as an exclusive promotional item in the future, should they choose to do so.

There is no prior commitment. 'Limited Edition' or 'Collector's Edition' isn't an eternal promise of exclusivity. Even *actual* "limited" edition collectibles, with certificates and numbered runs occasionally get subsequent runs if they prove to be lucrative enough.

Really? OK, let's break it down:

What I say here is that it's easy to devolve into the usual argument of "spoiled brat" vs. "elitist jerk" that you're clearly trying to start, but it's an argument that has no winner at the end of it. It's mudslinging for the sake of mudslinging and never accomplishes anything. The point of the Paragon Market - as described to us by the developers - is to give people the option of what they wanted to buy, as opposed to offering things in bundles or locking them in-game or barring them in other ways. It's supposed to be the one-stop-shop solution to content distribution (now there's a slogan for you) that replaces all other forms, if only you consider the Paragon Rewards system to be part of the Market. Which it is.

That's all I'm saying - everything that was attainable in other ways was supposed to then migrate to the Market. I know City of Heroes is still pretending to not be just a very, very expensive F2P title, but at the end of the day this is a business, and they've been milking us for cash in every way they could. It makes economic sense to sell the things people are repeatedly asking for, as opposed to trying to swindle us with gambling packs.

This one's pretty straightforward. I've argued the point of "status symbols" many, many times before. I argued it when capes were locked at level 20 (unlocked via Paragon Market), I argued it when Epic ATs were locked at 50 (now 20 or Paragon Market purchase, I believe), I argued it before. It is my passionate belief that this game will do better without symbols of "status," because I find "status" itself to be a corrupt idea, lending one faux respect based on external factors. I've always believed that if "status" is to exist, it should be based on a person's actual achievements, accomplishments and work. Arcanaville has status across the community, but this isn't for an exclusive purchase or a chance find. It is for continued work with the community. Samuraiko has status across the community, but this isn't for having something we can't. It's for doing something with the tools available to everybody, it's for work and dedication.

When I run into someone in-game, I'm not impressed that that person bought something eight years ago that isn't for sale now any more than I'm impressed someone went to a convention and came back with a dragon hat. What I'm impressed with is a costume that makes me stop, go back and have another look. What I'm impressed with is a character description that makes me go "OK, I want one of those, too!" What I'm impressed with is a person who can quote, off-hand, a build which would be superior to my own yet still attainable by my own rules of character building. What I'm impressed with is someone who can tell me about canon I didn't know about, or set me straight on a plot point that I would have otherwise seen as stupid. What impresses me is people who show skill, creativity and curiosity. What DOESN'T impress me is people waving around exclusive items.

Swag does not make a person. At best it's a kitsch. I don't hate people for having it, don't misunderstand, nor am I jealous of people who have something I don't. Life's too short for that. But I'm still determined to make sure everyone has access to the same "stuff," such that the most meaningful difference between people is the difference in what they express, rather than the difference in what they own.

Continual insistence on deionising the attitude does nothing to help your case. We're not asking for these items because we're some kind of greedy bastards who can't stand to not have anything that other people have. Take a stroll around the community here and you'll realise that we, to put it simply and bluntly, don't put much stock in "collectable" and "exclusive" items as a general concept. That's not to say people here aren't collectors. This is the game that pioneered badges, after all. What that IS to say, however, is that people only care what THEY have, not what other people have. By this, I mean that your average City of Heroes "collector" is only interested in what he has, but derives no real satisfaction from others' not being able to gain the same item. I know it makes me sound like a jerk to say this, but you really won't see much support for the attitude which puts value on things specifically because other people CAN'T have it, simply because that translates into intentionally wanting to deprive others of what you have.

In a digital world of infinite, no-cost replication, I see no reason to cling on to exclusivity. With physical items, I can see taking pride in possessing THE ONLY specific item in existence. I even support it. I have an old Sad Sam stuffed dog which used to belong to my brother and must be 30-35 years old at this point. It's older than me and I cherish it very much because I know for a fact no-one I know ever had one, or will ever have one, especially one this old. I get it. But this simply doesn't apply to digital distribution items. In the real world, you can have pride in having something other people can't have because only one person can have "the only" item of a certain kind. That's a physical limitation. In terms of digital distribution, however, there's no such thing as "the only" and there's no such thing as "limited availability." The only reason you can have pride in having something other people don't is because whoever is distributing it essentially chose to NOT give it to other people, and that's artificial.

Personally, I highly dislike artificial boundaries and manufactured scarcity. I dislike bringing real life physical item distribution gimmicks into a digital market place. I dislike rooting the market of the future into the limitations of the past. I dislike treating virtual goods like physical goods. I'm not one of those people who insists on having a physical CD of a game so I can bang it on my head while I play my game from my purely digital copy of it. I don't have a problem with publishers selling me a "license" to their software rather than the software itself. I have no problem paying for ideas and services. I like the virtual world where nothing is finite, nothing is physical and what sets people apart is their actions and creativity, as opposed to their physical possessions. I like that anyone can be a star if only they find a way to express themselves, and this is what I wan to support moving forward.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone should have a shot at every costume piece that exists at the game. Let everyone have a shot at everything, and let's see what people come up with. If you come up with a costume that blows me away, you already has something that no-one else can have - an idea that you brought into the world. Even in a world of infinite replication, THAT is something no-one can take away from you. An exclusive item, though? Yeah, that doesn't impress me.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Sam, upfront, you don't know me -- the only thing you know is what you know about yourself and the attitudes that you bring to the table, but I'm going to point some things out --

1. You've taken 5 paragraphs to explain 4 of your own sentences and then you actually go on to conclude with statements about what people bring into the world and how it can't be taken from them. That comes across as lecturing and/or writing just because you like what you write.

2. Paragon market is supposed to be one-stop-shop solution for content distribution for all items going forward, not necessarily retro-active as you write it. (i.e., digging out the collector's edition items).

3. Paragon (Positron specifically) has already stated that the Collector's items will not go on the market (so long as someone is still in the company). Whether that is because of contractual obligation or philosophical view, that is the situation. (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=271813, 41:40 of the ustream: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/17246488)

4. Who's talking about status? Why are you hung up on being impressed/impressing people and explaining what will impress you? It's like Snowy trying to make a legal argument - you're bringing outside attitudes into this.

5. My position, which is an established position, is that the whole 4 (four/quattro/cuatro/quatre/vier) items that came in collector's editions (2 capes, power slide, slightly different arachnos chest symbol) should remain exclusive. I want to make a point that it's only 4 items, because other readers might think it's some huge trove of items, when it really isn't. My original post, although not quoted, was in response to someone stating all items should go in and not just the wisp/facepalm/etc.

6. Also, as previously stated, no issues with changing to non-exclusive items going forward, which is in line with your attitudes about status symbols.

So? I fail to see where you're obligated to read it. I furthermore fail to see why you intentionally skip over the substance of what I said to keep arguing your petty point and missing the broader message I'm discussing. I don't want your stuff specifically, nor do I want what's in the DVD Collector's Edidtion. I HAVE what's in the DVD collector's edition because Nuclear Toast had one to spare that he offered to give me. I'm "lecturing" because I have a larger point to make about the nature of status, the nature of collections, the nature of digital distribution and so forth. You're free to ignore that, but please don't try to talk down on me like it what I'm saying doesn't matter. You're not the only person reading this thread and, consequently, not the only person I'm addressing.

Furthermore, you don't get to accuse me of being... What was it?

Oh, right. Yeah, you don't get to make a comment like that and then proceed to snark at me for actually addressing it. If you make an accusation, then you better deal with the reply. And if you don't want to deal with the reply, then don't bring it up. This idea that you can sling insults at people and then proceed to mock them for responding isn't going to fly. If you want to discuss the point, stick to discussing the point. If you're going to character-assassinate people, then at least have the decency to accept the consequences.

Except for the fact that, as of right now, the Paragon Market is selling the Vanguard Pack once awarded as a LOYALTY REWARD that cost those of us who had it prior three months of uninterrupted subscription over the course of the seven year anniversary, the Cape and Aura unlocks that are were and are an in-game unlock which Jack Emmert himself went on a tangent to explain how they were status symbols (hence where "status" comes in) and the Roman Pack which has a whole variety of items normally unlockable via a Cimeroran badge and, if I remember correctly, some normally unlockable via the ITF.

The Paragon Market has already demonstrated itself as being the place to retro-actively buy content which was previously unlockable in ways other than money and previously said to be exclusive. Furthermore, the Veteran Reward programme, and now the Paragon Rewards programme, contain the "pre-order sprints" and I believe the "pre-order helmets" which were part of special purchase promotions and were, at least at one point, said to be exclusive. They aren't, not any more.

It makes no difference. Even if this one item remains exclusive, the question of exclusivity in general is moot. Pretty much everything that's been exclusive in the past has showed up in the market and I'm fairly certain that pretty much everything else that's exclusive now (like the Wisps aura) will show up, as well. Maybe not the DVD Edition stuff, granted, but even that's not out of the table. We've gone through a lot of developers in the last eight years. BABs said a lot of things wouldn't happen as long as he worked at the studio, as did Castle. As did Jack Emmert, for that matter.

I'm talking about status. I fail to see where I'm required to wait for you to bring up a topic before I can discuss it. And the reason I'm discussing it is because it's integral to the subject of exclusivity, as well as because it has been a frequently recurring topic of conversation whenever exclusivity is discussed. You didn't discuss it, no. So what? I did, because it's a topic that's interesting to me, because it's a topic that's relevant to others and because, frankly, it's an interesting topic to examine. If it's not interesting to you, that's fine. Don't discuss it. You're not the only person I'm addressing with this, as unless I'm mistaken, you're not the only person reading this forums. Yes, I responded to your post as a jumping-on point, but again - this doesn't prevent me from branching off into subjects that interest me but aren't directly relevant to your post.

Again, you're the one turning this onto a "me vs. everyone else" discussion and either browbeating people for daring to discuss topics you didn't bring up or always trying to bring this back to "your stuff." News flash, bud - no-one cares about your stuff. You can keep it. You can keep it exclusive, and aside from the occasional grumble, nobody is going to care. Because the question isn't and wasn't about that. It's a much broader question about the merits of "exclusivity" in general. If you want to have a grandfather rule for your stuff, fine. Have it, with my compliments. Because this isn't about your stuff, and your stuff staying exclusive is, I dare say, a small price to pay for ending this bad practice of exclusivity of virtual items that can be copied infinitely. If you don't see how that's relevant, that's fine, but there are others who will.

Finally, I bring up the concept of "status" as it relates to the concept of "collecting," which I would wager is relevant to the notion of a "collector's edition." Maybe if you spent less time trying to talk about how much my post doesn't relate to yours - as if that matters - you could actually see the connections and follow my conclusions. But no, you choose to see this as me specifically arguing against you specifically, when I'm not. I'm arguing a point, and it's largely irrelevant who's for or against that point for the purposes of the argument. You're the one who's arguing WITH ME instead of arguing FOR YOUR POINT. And arguing with me is a losing venture because I cannot be convinced by being argued with, I can only be convinced by being given a convincing argument towards a broader point than just "you're wrong, I'm right." I don't care about being right, I don't care about you being wrong.

I care about the subjects of exclusivity, collecting and status, as they pertain to the sale of previously exclusive items. I'll argue about other stuff, sure, but that's not as interesting.

And I agree that all previously exclusive items should be sold in the store. I'm sorry that me holding this opinion offends you, but that's simply what I believe. I don't question your character for holding a different opinion from mine, though I'm sure you'll find some way to claim that as you've done twice before. The "whiner/entitled" argument just seems so alluring for some reason. I'm simply of the fundamental belief that exclusivity cannot exist in a digital medium and faking it is a corruption of some of the medium's greatest strengths. To me, forcing exclusivity on items that can be copied infinitely in order to approximate the exclusivity of limited-edition physical media is no unlike creating a movie that consists entirely of text screens in order to more resemble a book. Yes, you can do that, but it misses the point of creating a moving picture (with sound) in the first place. Granted, I can see the benefit of having something like the Kindle that allows you to read books on a digital device, but that still uses the benefit of the media to its fullest, chiefly that it's a massive space and weight saver.

As I said before, I'm OK with you keeping your misbegotten DVD Edition stuff. That's not a big deal. Even though my fundamental belief goes against it, I'm not that much of an extremist to be unable to make an exception. Fine, keep it, it's not a problem. So long as it's that one thing, it's fine. So long as it's an exception to the rule, that's fine. It's practically impossible to shoot for 100% consistency in the results of our beliefs and I'm more than willing to accept this as the exception to my rule. Nobody's going to steal your stuff. Don't worry about it. Yes, people are going to occasionally make that comment, but so long as you keep in mind that "people" can't enact development rules, you're safe. I see no reason why you can't simply state your disagreement and leave it at that. What is this need to talk down to people who disagree and demonise them as you have? What do you gain by this, aside from people angry at you?

The question of "status" goes beyond just exclusive items. It's why I brought it up. Capes were never "exclusive," but needing to unlock them led to some people interpreting them as status symbols nonetheless. Some held having a cape as a mark of superiority. "See, my character is level 20 and yours isn't!" I heard a lot of arguments for why capes should remain locked to 20 that went along just this line, and I saw a lot of arguments that insisted we need "status symbols" in order to "show character progression." I argued then as I do now that character progression is a meta-game concept that's built into the actual game side of City of Heroes that doesn't need to be extended over the cosmetic side of it, citing customization and identity as one of the chief strengths of the game. I cited, further, that if people wanted to show progress, the costume editor fully allowed them to do this by choice via updating a character's costume to be "better" every few levels to simulate the acquisition of loot.

I know you'll cut me off and say "But I didn't say that!" and you didn't. I know you're not talking about capes or visual cues for levelling up or status symbols. Again I refer you to my "So what?" point. To me, the concept of exclusivity has direct correlations to the longstanding debate about "Capes at 20" and the evolution of it through the years up until putting cape and aura unlocks in the Paragon Market essentially ended it. These days, I'm the only one who still brings it up because it's done. It's settled. It's a non-issue. But to me, there are still lessons we can learn from "Capes at 20" both in terms of going forward with future content and in terms of how people react to costume pieces when they start to become seen as status symbols.

Here's how it all relates together - I don't want to see people using a specific costume piece because it's seen as prestigious in cases where it really doesn't fit the costume. Back in the "Capes at 20" days, I saw many people wearing capes over costumes that REALLY didn't work well with them. I get that capes are a big thing for tights super heroes, but I saw them used on virtually everything whether it looked good or not. To me, this is the ultimate corruption of what should be the game's central point - we create our own heroes. To give a costume piece extra weight by giving it some sort of "status" either by being exclusive or otherwise, to me, is to corrupt the whole system where our looks are separate from the game's mechanics. The whole point is that there are no game-side factors which force a certain look on us over another and we're free to choose based on taste and preference alone. You go back on that by attaching status to pieces, and making them exclusive is a form of attaching status to them.

I also have the inverse argument, and I'll give it with an example: I HATE Super Speed. I always have. It transpires, however, that I don't so much dislike the power or even the concept behind it (Saints Row: The Third did super running right) as I do the running animation we use with it, especially for women. In City of Heroes, run animations resemble slow jogs, so when you have a character slow-jogging at super speed, it turns my throat inside out. My solution? Find a power that swaps the running animation. That power? Well... Pretty much the only one which does that AND is usable with Super Speed is... Prestige Power Slide. Yeah, you can see how that goes. So I lamented on the forums that I didn't have that and how I couldn't buy one when I got a PM saying "Hey, I have one. Do you want it?" So now I have one.

But here's the thing - I don't really want any of the "exclusive" stuff. More specifically, I don't want any of that stuff because it's exclusive. I don't want Prestige Power Slide because it's exclusive. I want it because it's the only power that alters running animations. If, one day, we were allowed to customise the animation Super Speed used and a sliding or floating type animation were part of the choices, I'd stop using Slide immediately. It's clunky enough to toggle on and off as it is. Yet here I am, paying the price of exclusivity for an item that I don't really care whether it's exclusive or not. Because what's "exclusive" explores a side of the game that no other power does. It puts me in the position of wanting an exclusive item not because of its "collector's edition" status which is its key selling point, but because of how it works.

And to my mind, that's just wrong. It's like buying an entire for the sole reason of using its wheel rims on another car you'd rather drive and then doing nothing with the new one. I don't WANT a whole car, I just want four wheel rims. I don't even want the tyres. THIS is where the Paragon Market was supposed to shine - it was supposed to let me have just the stuff I wanted and none of the stuff I didn't want. Obviously, the Super Packs more or less went back on that idea completely, but even so - I don't want exclusivity. I want "stuff." Thus, making stuff exclusive just means people who need it for the "stuff" can't have it because that would ruin those who have it for the exclusivity.

The only way I can see this working is either with "commemorative" items that don't really explore a new concept (like the custom Arachnos logos, those are a great idea) or otherwise non-costume-related items like special titles. Really, if I could get Prestige Power Slide without going through the whole DVD Edition pack, I would have. Now because I can't, your items are one person less exclusive. And I haven't even used any of the others.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.