Nalrok's Really Fast Coffee Talk Writeup
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-11 11:33 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There are a few reasons why they can break the cottage rule with this power. For one, I bet in their datamining they found zero active builds using the power.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
YES
YES YES YES The cottage rule is the WORST thing that has ever happened to City of Heroes design. It's developers willfully saying that they're going to do a poor job in the name of what, not rocking the boat with the customer? That's a ridiculous argument because the boat is being rocked to bring the customer a better product. Throw it out. It's awful. |
Second: it takes no Purple or insanely rare and sought after IOs. A power that gets changed so that it can no longer be slotted for it's original intention, gets it's enhancements deleted uppon patch. Imagine if they changed Combat jumping so it no longer accepted defense enhancements and instead added resist? A lot of people may actually like it since it would give resist builds something more to stack resistance with, but it would delete a lot of LotG Recharge IOs. Not fun stuff.
I would say it sounds more like your position is that the power is a horrible power for a select set of characters, or perhaps character + playstyle. (Your complaint would be valid for Tankers who play meatshield, which is probably the majority of Tankers, but also Brutes or even Scrappers who do so, which is going to be respectively less likely for those ATs.)
When I use Aid Self, I often can't shed aggro, because I'm often solo. If I were a Tanker who needed to Aid Self in a team context, I would try to find cover, such as a corner, I could hide behind long enough to break incoming DPS to heal off of. It's not perfect, but it's what I do solo and it works pretty well.
Ultimately, I just don't seem to think the power is as horrible as you do. At least in terms of ease-of-use. It's rough on DPS, but for the benefit I at least realize with it, it probably needs to be rough on something.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
YES
YES YES YES The cottage rule is the WORST thing that has ever happened to City of Heroes design. It's developers willfully saying that they're going to do a poor job in the name of what, not rocking the boat with the customer? That's a ridiculous argument because the boat is being rocked to bring the customer a better product. Throw it out. It's awful. |
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
You're wrong.
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Every game has the Cottage Rule, it's just they don't talk about it as much and don't have a player base tossing the phrase around incorrectly every other minute.
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Unusable for any tanking character that is not a heavy defense tanker. That's basically all but Shields, SR and Ice really. In fact, my Shields tanker is the only character I ever took that power on.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I would say it sounds more like your position is that the power is a horrible power for a select set of characters
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| Your complaint would be valid for Tankers who play meatshield, which is probably the majority of Tankers, but also Brutes or even Scrappers who do so, which is going to be respectively less likely for those ATs. |
Solo, everyone is an aggro magnet, you can choose to retreat and kill your DPS if you are not a def heavy build, but again most melee characters are not heavy defense.
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| When I use Aid Self, I often can't shed aggro, because I'm often solo. If I were a Tanker who needed to Aid Self in a team context, I would try to find cover, such as a corner, I could hide behind long enough to break incoming DPS to heal off of. It's not perfect, but it's what I do solo and it works pretty well. |
This is one of those powers that even me and my love for spreadsheets say spredsheets can not accurately measure. It's not possible to get full advantage of the power in any scenario. I don't think the power is overpowered, never have. I actually see a change that lets me use it every 40 - 45 seconds without having to seek for cover a buff in effectiveness.
Closing though: This is irrelevant because the devs already set their path. Would be best to hold any hate or disapointment to the date they actually announce what they doing to that power pool.
They should just go ahead and introduce create your own powers. That is the only way to make folks happy.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Heh, Well I already have my list of powers set up for wind, water and nature...I have a set in mind for every AT.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
They should just go ahead and introduce create your own powers. That is the only way to make folks happy.
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I'm particularly interested in making Water Melee.
This Change is great though...I was regretting my Fire/Poison Corr but now he will be worth it....and I don't have to delete him.
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I remember one MMO (fantasy based...don't remember the name of it; don't think it's up and running still) that my former boss was interested in. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
They should just go ahead and introduce create your own powers. That is the only way to make folks happy.
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This is from memory but I think you got a power (let's say Fireball) and then for either money (game money not rl money) or some sort of fee, you could modify the power. So if you wanted it to do more damage, you could make a 'new' Fireball that does more damage (but now it costs more mana/endurance or what have you).
I'm sure that may be harder on the dev team but I'd love to see something like that.
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You're doing it wrong.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Unusable for any tanking character that is not a heavy defense tanker. That's basically all but Shields, SR and Ice really. In fact, my Shields tanker is the only character I ever took that power on.
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I played an Energy Melee/Electric Armor Brute with Aid Self before IOs and without Weave. My only defense came from Combat Jumping. I could get Aid Self off routinely as long as I wasn't standing in a damage patch while using a primary with absolutely pathetic AoE mitigation (30% chance for a very short minion-level stun in WH, woo!).
I don't usually take it, but pretending that the interrupt makes it impossible to use for a melee character is completely out there.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Aid Other and Aid Self are perfectly usable right now by non-defence heavy characters.
You're clearly doing something wrong.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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No power with Interrupt is "perfectly" usable. That's kind of what Interrupt does.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Cende (MA/SR scrapper) is frequently solo, or the only melee in a group of blasters, and has Aid Self (and Aid Other, which is handy in that group of blasters who don't have the sense Zeus gave little green worms to get out of range). Unless I happen to be standing in a damage patch (acid, fire, cold, whatever) and getting ticks of DOT (and sometimes even then), I can usually get my Aid Self off whenever I need it, and it's enough to let me finish off the fight.
I'm interested in seeing what they change to Medicine. These changes are likely to make my build REALLY difficult.
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Unbidden | Star Patrol | Real World Hero
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Consistently? No. But that's because I don't always get hammered that often. Sometimes? Yes, and in those cases, being able to recast it again in a hurry (as fast as I can given its animation time) is a big deal. Making it have a 40-ish second recharge on a high-end build would strip me of that ability, in which case those times I've needed to be able to do that would have meant I either was dead instead or at least needed to use green inspirations. And I like that it allows that for me.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Time it next time you playing and let me know if you do it more than every 45 seconds.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Nope. No animation changes. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
Did they actually show video of the new powers? I am pondering, if they change the animation of Kick the T1 or T2 of Martial Arts, the power would be great. Boxing may alos benefit in similar form from an animation swap, not to mention if these powers are expected to be used... their animations are horrible looking now.
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The new power, Cross Punch, uses the same animation as Sweeping Cross from Street Justice. (Just FYI.)
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Originally Posted by Starsman
My impression is, and I may be wrong, the damage buff for punch is stand alone, with the increased chance to stun/knockdown being conditional on owning both.
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@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Technically, it doesn't break the cottage rule, so long as it follows all previous power change methods.
Sure, new characters won't be able to select Challenge, a power that will no longer be offered. They will be able to select a completely -new- power.
Those who have Challenge will retain it until they choose to respec. Just like Inherent fitness didn't automatically kick in, such as when Conserve Power was replaced with Energize in the Electric Armor set. People who had Conserve Power were able to keep it, indefinitely. Those who wanted Energize could simply respec into the new power.
Challenge does not suddenly placate enemies. Challenge is still Challenge. New players will not be able to select Challenge in the same way they can no longer select the Fitness Power Pool.
-Rachel-
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Short answer:|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Sorry if some of this is unclear, I wrote fast.
Power pools being revised Fifth Power to all pools without one 'Bad' pool powers reworked Fighting: Boxing: 15% DMG increase, Stun Chance mag 3 at 35% if Kick owned Kick: 40% KD chance if Boxing owned Tough/Weave not changed New Power: Cross Punch: cone melee, 15% DMG increase with recov buff if Boxing owned, 15% damage with recov bu, rech/acc buff if kick owned "Fighting will be a Mini Street Justice" |
Cool.
Only slightly less short answer:
Sounds pretty fun. Already looking forward to test driving it on someone's face.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Presence: Acknowledged by devs as crappy
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Challenge: Removed, turned into Pacify, self-placate. No hide no crit, pure self aggro dump. "Oh PANCAKE Button" (Zwill: Maybe Scrappers will want. *SNERK*)
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I mean - I'd bet money the Grim Reaper could drive a flaming tractor trailer loaded with nitro-glycerin over a cobblestone road at most scrappers and they'd just shout CHALLENGE ACCEPTED at it.
They MIGHT live long enough to get to the second syllable of that... I know I do often enough. <whistles innocently>
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Provoke: No Change
Intimidate: End cost reduced, increased to Mag3, 30% chance for Mag4 Invoke Panic: Acc increased, reduced end cost, radius up to 20ft, bump up to Mag3 New Power: Unrelenting: +DMG, +Rech, +Recovery, Self HoT, Self-Resurrect if in defeated state. Clarion animation. (Note: Long Help says that Unrelenting grants a buff called "Crash Protection") |
Otherwise, eh, I'll try it. Sounds interesting. Could be nice to play Invuln without looking over my shoulder for the Grim Reaper. He and I drink together often enough as it is.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
New "Other Ranged Blast Set Change": NO CRASH NUKES! Normalized recharge:damage ratio for all 'crash' Tier 9 blast powers. "Slight decrease on max potential damage, but good amount of consistent damage increase. No more chance-for-damage, all nukes are now a consistent number. 50% faster recharge for PBAoE nukes, 75% faster recharge for Targeted AoE Nukes."
>snippity snip snip< |
(Yes, I remember / lived through that, I guess compared to some I could be considered old - NOW GET OFF MAH LAWN!)
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Synapse: We're not done yet. There's way more to I24 than just pools and blasters/blast sets.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
DUAL PISTOLS:
'Pistols' power getting secondary effects Cast time reduced on Exec Shot, Empty Clips, Bullet Rain, all three down to 1.67s cast time |
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
SPINES:
Barb Swipe will be an under-one-second attack power Lunge is having its everything increased Freespec will be available. |
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
QUESTIONS THAT I CARED ABOUT
What about other crashes? Synapse says they need to be addressed too, but this change is made for offensive crashes Base changes? "No, because the Base system is like trying to play Jenga; one wrong removal and the whole system breaks." -Zwill "It's more like playing Jenga on fire." -Synapse When does I24 drop? "Before 25, but definitely after 23." -Zwill Coloring Power Pools? "We can't talk about it." -Synapse |
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
>snip<
Issue 24 secret codename is "Issue Fix All The Things" Synapse: So instead of posting patch notes for I24 we're going to ship you a book. |
Anyways, good stuff. Looking forward to the announcement of the announcement of i24. *
~Raven
* I don't have anything against Golden Girl, but I WOULD have put a winking emoticon there if not for her. <sigh>
Even against certain death, it matters not how or if we fight, only that we do.
Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."
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This had me lol'ing for real at the mental image (the mental image which may have involved a little rabid, spittle-spraying roar of rage).
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Originally Posted by RavenSoul
I mean - I'd bet money the Grim Reaper could drive a flaming tractor trailer loaded with nitro-glycerin over a cobblestone road at most scrappers and they'd just shout CHALLENGE ACCEPTED at it.
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Yeah, I think theres some unwritten rule where one is not allowed to quote themselves in their own signature.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
This had me lol'ing for real at the mental image (the mental image which may have involved a little rabid, spittle-spraying roar of rage).
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But, I feel that sentence so perfectly captures the Scrapper Mentality, I'm sorely tempted to break that rule.
By the way, I wrote it with a specific alt of mine in mind, a Broadsword Shield scrap' werewolf, using confront on said truck... yeah. Been there, done that, had the medi-port EMS team shaking their heads at me. <grin> Good times.
Even against certain death, it matters not how or if we fight, only that we do.
Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."
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Not necessarily. IIRC, the ONLY instance of anythign like this was the change to a IO set where the special IO was unique, but able to be slotted multiple times.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
There are a few reasons why they can break the cottage rule with this power. For one, I bet in their datamining they found zero active builds using the power.
Second: it takes no Purple or insanely rare and sought after IOs. A power that gets changed so that it can no longer be slotted for it's original intention, gets it's enhancements deleted uppon patch. Imagine if they changed Combat jumping so it no longer accepted defense enhancements and instead added resist? A lot of people may actually like it since it would give resist builds something more to stack resistance with, but it would delete a lot of LotG Recharge IOs. Not fun stuff. |
in other instances of a power no longer being able to slot an enhancement set, the set remained, and simply didn't function. (Tuant sets and auras)
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Technically, it doesn't break the cottage rule, so long as it follows all previous power change methods.
Sure, new characters won't be able to select Challenge, a power that will no longer be offered. They will be able to select a completely -new- power. Those who have Challenge will retain it until they choose to respec. Just like Inherent fitness didn't automatically kick in, such as when Conserve Power was replaced with Energize in the Electric Armor set. People who had Conserve Power were able to keep it, indefinitely. Those who wanted Energize could simply respec into the new power. Challenge does not suddenly placate enemies. Challenge is still Challenge. New players will not be able to select Challenge in the same way they can no longer select the Fitness Power Pool. -Rachel- |
In every other instance of a change like this, the powers simply changed - no need for respec.
And a respec being needed or not has NOTHING to do with deciding if a power change violates the "cottage rule" philosophy.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
The Blaster changes are quite good... Almost enough to get me to give the AT another change but not quite. Lack of status protection and meaningful defences still snap me back to reality. I imagine the changes will be very much appreciated by those who already enjoy Blasters, though, so that's still very good news. I have to say, un-sucking nukes makes me happy even if I won't get to use them. It tells me an outmoded "balance by annoyance" mechanic is going away, and that's nothing but good news for the future of the game and big respect for the powers team.
The changes to power pools, Fighting especially... Concerns me. I was hoping taking the decent powers in the pool would be made easier and instead not only is it just as hard, but now I'm actively encouraged to take ALL of it. Ugh... We'll see how it turns out.
Spines is what I REALLY care about, though. Bio Armour inspired me to make a new Spines Scrapper, and I was quickly reminded how shoddy the set's age-old design was. How lucky is it that mere weeks later I read about the set being improved? Sweet! I can't wait!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I like that the new power pools may provide more options with builds. But the restrictions may need to be removed for the first three powers now that a fifth one is being added.
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I will have to say you are a bit wrong there there where a bunch of Electric armor brutes including mine that used Aid Self in melee untill they fixed the set and gave us energize when it was ported over. I used aid self all the time with 1 interrupt in it, and this was before IO's so the only defense I had was CJ, and weave. I also had taunt and was always taking agro.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Unusable for any tanking character that is not a heavy defense tanker. That's basically all but Shields, SR and Ice really. In fact, my Shields tanker is the only character I ever took that power on.
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The only time I had issues was if I was taking DoT, or a quick high point hit then I used a inspiration.
I will have to say without practice though its not the best tool out there, but still can get the job done. With Io's now its not that hard to softcap to S/l and aid-self would be even better.
Freedom Server - Main = Lil Bug & way too many alts to list
As anyone who was playing before the ELA revamp knows, or anyone who even bothered to *test* it, Aid Self is fine without defense; although more of it obviously makes the power easier to use and results in less wasted end.
Between this and other posts he made on the beta boards, I am now convinced Starsman came back to this game only to troll the forums...
It's working, but I'll be damned if I'm fooled one more time.
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As a purely historical note, Presence was virtually required for tankers prior to Issue 3 - Taunt was single target back then.
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Originally Posted by RavenSoul
As an aside, I've always wondered what the percent of characters rolled over the life-time of CoH have used Presence - I'd be shocked if it wasn't less than a single percent... |
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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How odd. That seems so ridiculous, now. I had no idea myself - back then I had a couple Tank friends but I was a Blaster at the time.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
As a purely historical note, Presence was virtually required for tankers prior to Issue 3 - Taunt was single target back then.
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Well, thanks for the history pointer though.
Even against certain death, it matters not how or if we fight, only that we do.
Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."
I use it on numerous melees, and yes, I have to retreat to use it on several of them
No use in arguing though, I am sure they are set on whatever they are doing to the powers.