To those who complained Tyrant was too easy...
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-05-31 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I think a few bad players constantly getting hit by the lightning can make his regen unmanagable even for an otherwise good league, its so confusing, its very hard to tell who is getting killled and this is going to make it a mess for pugs.
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Originally Posted by Issen
Once again, we're doing the same song and dance as pre-nerf Keyes. People complaining about the difficulty of a trial that actually requires that the players actually THINK about what they're supposed to do and pay attention to their surroundings.
I honestly hope the Magi Trial doesn't get the same treatment as Keyes, which was nerfed into oblivion, to the point that it's as snooze-worthy as a BAF or Lambda now. At least TPN only got a minor (and much needed) nerf, and MoM hasn't been touched at all. Some hints for folks running Magi trials: 1) Don't pop your Lore Pets UNTIL Tyrant hits the 30-35% mark. It's easy to get him that low and that's where most leagues stall 2) Don't camp the Lights. No seriously, don't. 3/4ths of a Team trying to camp the light means that much less DPS. The only people who should concievably be camping Lights are Masterminds, since they can command pets to attack Tyrant and pets are immune to the Lightning Drop patches. 3) When you see the warning "The air around Tyrant crackles!" move AWAY. Now, I won't be too harsh if you accidentally use your long-animating T9 attack (I've made the mistake of using Concentrated Strike, and a friend made the mistake of using Energy Transfer), but otherwise, stick to faster attack chains. If people move away in time, the lightning patches are spread out and folks can easily move back in and keep wailing on him. 4) It's okay to farm Phase 1 for the Hybrid EXP if you want it. Hybrid helps out quite a bit during this trial. But really, it's not that much more difficult than pre-nerf Keyes, MoM, or TPN. People simply have to be willing to coordinate and keep their eyes on the screen and the chatbox. |
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Define "badly built". You don't need IOs to succeed in iTrials.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I should add one observation about the difficulty of iTrials. Players who have been around in this game for a long time had a pretty long time to run around at level 50 and kind of get used to the difficulty there, and then move up to the newer stuff as an added challenge. Players who have joined us more recently are now moving through the game and hitting incarnate content head on at level 50.
However difficult the STF or LRSF might have once been, in my mind neither of them compares to the crushing brutality of the iTrials on an imperfectly built toon. My brother is a relatively new player who struggled on his way to 50. After a few months of iTrials he recently expressed his desire to quit playing. The reason is not that his team keeps losing. It's that he keeps dying over and over and over and that he is not good enough to contribute anything to the fighting. People call Lambda "easy" but for him it is clerly beyond his current skill level and is basically a death trap. I think we really need to be careful when we refer to something as "not difficult." Just because a team can carry a trial to victory doesn't mean some team members aren't being annihilated or made to feel sidelined. That said, I was one of the players who said in the beta the trial was boring. Not "easy" necessarily, but boring. I wish they had made it more thrilling instead of more crushing. |
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"I can't run off and solo boxes!" I think is the definition of "BEST BUILD".
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Originally Posted by Issen
Define "badly built". You don't need IOs to succeed in iTrials.
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So last night and today, us on Union have perfected the tactics of avoiding the lights with ease now.
The only problem now is that you run the risk of taking the full force of Tyrants attacks, which can KO basically anything except tanks/brutes in one hit. That NEEDS to be changed.
Finishing a trial is quite easy now we've found, the only problem we're facing currently is getting the hard way badge and the very hard way. Determined to get both though we are! 
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Get out of here with your logic and your ability to entertain more than one point of view! That's so not allowed here. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I should add one observation about the difficulty of iTrials. Players who have been around in this game for a long time had a pretty long time to run around at level 50 and kind of get used to the difficulty there, and then move up to the newer stuff as an added challenge. Players who have joined us more recently are now moving through the game and hitting incarnate content head on at level 50.
However difficult the STF or LRSF might have once been, in my mind neither of them compares to the crushing brutality of the iTrials on an imperfectly built toon. My brother is a relatively new player who struggled on his way to 50. After a few months of iTrials he recently expressed his desire to quit playing. The reason is not that his team keeps losing. It's that he keeps dying over and over and over and that he is not good enough to contribute anything to the fighting. People call Lambda "easy" but for him it is clerly beyond his current skill level and is basically a death trap. I think we really need to be careful when we refer to something as "not difficult." Just because a team can carry a trial to victory doesn't mean some team members aren't being annihilated or made to feel sidelined. That said, I was one of the players who said in the beta the trial was boring. Not "easy" necessarily, but boring. I wish they had made it more thrilling instead of more crushing. |
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| Issen: You don't need IOs to succeed in iTrials |
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They arent required, they help, but they arent required.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Get out of here with your logic and your ability to entertain more than one point of view! That's so not allowed here.
I have tried it both ways, and to say IOs [and by proxy, the bonuses they provide] are not needed for end-game content is disingenous at best, and a real sardonic hoot of laughter at worst. |
In a trial even more so than solo content they arent required, we have no real way to look at another players gear with any real accuracy, this isnt another game that shall not be named.
So if trials are intended to be pugged, they have to assume some of the players are going to be really weak.
I dont think the devs ever want trials not to be pugged, because anytime a trial has become unpuggable as is pugs wont touch, they nerf it till they will.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Defeating the lights gives a buff called [Notice of the Well], a 5,000ft (I think) radius aoe buff that hits 16 targets max, yeah SIXTEEN. On my leagues above 16 I have observed not everyone getting all the level shifts.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I want to especially focus on this point.
There are reports that destroying a Well of Light doesn't give a league wide level shift. The same reports are saying that the buff is only for the team that kills the light, and even then only in an AoE centered on the light. If these reports are accurate, then they should be fixed. Ideally, what should happen is that for each Well of Light that is defeated, Tyrant should have his level shift reduced. After all, we aren't empowering ourselves. By severing Tyrant's access to the well we are supposed to be making HIM weaker, not ourselves stronger. |
"A true hero has the strength to stand against evil
without wavering where all others despair,
even if it means standing alone." - Kragothe Valour
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Quoted for emphasis. I was seeing this a great deal last night playing my Mind/Fire dom. It was suggested that I was outside of the range of the lightning flow. Unfortunately, that didn't prevent the lightning from dropping on my location. It was suggested that flying a moderate distance above the ground will help avoid them.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Have to sort of disagree with that Zombie.. did a couple runs today with my MM and the problem was NOT that anyone didn't know what to do.. I know for a fact a few times there was never any AIR CRACKLES AROUND TYRANT waring before the lightning started to strike.. At that point you have seconds to turn and run like mad. With an MM if you are mid attack animation.. your history!
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Additionally, there were times when some of the lightning flows were not being rendered. Other times the damage ticks continued after the lighning fonts vanished. Many times I moved to a seemingly clear location to find more damage ticking away. That could be a problem with my graphics card or settings. Overall, my frame rates plummet in the fight against Tyrant... worse than I've seen in other parts of the game.
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Originally Posted by Issen
Once again, we're doing the same song and dance as pre-nerf Keyes. People complaining about the difficulty of a trial that actually requires that the players actually THINK about what they're supposed to do and pay attention to their surroundings.
I honestly hope the Magi Trial doesn't get the same treatment as Keyes, which was nerfed into oblivion, to the point that it's as snooze-worthy as a BAF or Lambda now. At least TPN only got a minor (and much needed) nerf, and MoM hasn't been touched at all. Some hints for folks running Magi trials: 1) Don't pop your Lore Pets UNTIL Tyrant hits the 30-35% mark. It's easy to get him that low and that's where most leagues stall 2) Don't camp the Lights. No seriously, don't. 3/4ths of a Team trying to camp the light means that much less DPS. The only people who should concievably be camping Lights are Masterminds, since they can command pets to attack Tyrant and pets are immune to the Lightning Drop patches. 3) When you see the warning "The air around Tyrant crackles!" move AWAY. Now, I won't be too harsh if you accidentally use your long-animating T9 attack (I've made the mistake of using Concentrated Strike, and a friend made the mistake of using Energy Transfer), but otherwise, stick to faster attack chains. If people move away in time, the lightning patches are spread out and folks can easily move back in and keep wailing on him. 4) It's okay to farm Phase 1 for the Hybrid EXP if you want it. Hybrid helps out quite a bit during this trial. But really, it's not that much more difficult than pre-nerf Keyes, MoM, or TPN. People simply have to be willing to coordinate and keep their eyes on the screen and the chatbox. |
I'm sorry but do you realize what your saying? Of course you do but here's the thing in number 2 you are saying we need all the dps we can focused on Tyrant.. agreed! Then in number 3 your telling the same people to not use certain attack at all to avoid long animations that may get them killed. I have some characters that doing this would require me to all but abandon half my attack chain and in a number of cases we are talking the higher powers with the better damage.... Heck my Titan Weapons Brute may as well just sit on top of the hill and watch the show.. ALL HER ATTACKS take time (nearly). Interestingly the only character I have that has had an outstanding success rate on this trial is my DP/Ice Blaster and she has any number of attacks with fairly long animations and I used every sinle one of them. She had 4 straight successful trials and one that she dc'd on and by the time she got back it had failed.
So don't camp the lights we need your damage but only use the attacks you got between levels 1-20 cause we can't have you die.
Now just like Bright my favorite trial is the Underground so lets set aside any notion that all I want is fast and easy. Now some of my least favorites are the Lambda and Keyes. Both of these can be absolutely devastating for a squishy character and just to emphasis the point I saw someone else make.. I don't care what AT the player is using they want to feel like they are an actual part of a team .. not spend half their time face down on the ground or running back from hospital while the tanks, brutes, etc WIN THE DAY. Its the main reason I dislike speed runs on things like the ITF. My Rad/Rad defender gets an invite because we'll need her for the final battle against Romulus. But in mission two if she spends the entire trial dead while two brutes run through the caves like maniacs destroying all the crystals that's just fine. Nothing less fun than having 4-5 ambushes spawn on top of your already dead body.. and frankly I refuse to go to the hospital and come back just so I can get slaughtered again.
I'm currently farming all my incarnates to open hybrid.. when that's done I'll TRY running full trials with certain characters. To be totally honest I probably won't send a single Melee character inside on of those things as it stands right now. I don't mind a challenge but when I have to spend more time RUNNING away from a fight like a scared school child than actually standing my ground and fighting then I am NOT HAVING FUN. I don't mind a bit of this like during the TPN but then we battle Maelstorm three times and he only get's that ability once. I have already helped kick his but inside once and know that I get to do it again later.. so a little tactical retreat I can deal with... but not for the entire battle with THE main villain we face.
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On a group that narrowly succeeded recently. Not everyone plays on min-maxed toons.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
STF - once upon a time we single-pulled AVs. Now we pull all four into a corner and fight them all at once. Some of them actually die to AoEs. We used to worry about the Flier respawning, and now it never has time.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
LRSF - once upon a time we single-pulled AVs. That was rare, though, because it was actually hard to pull off, so we would often dog-pile them. But we did this with specific subsets of Brute powersets tanking. Now we dogpile them with whatever is at hand, sometimes with no formal meatshield at all. Some of them actually die to AoEs.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Reichsman - We can do this whole TF in 15 minutes with whatever we decide to bring, +/- a minute or two. We often do it with no meatshield. We pull the AVs into a small room and some of them die to AoEs while we're still fighting Reichsman. The SF version is something of a hoot because of the nigh-infinite waves of Council who we get to mow down instead, but sadly most players I know hate the SF because of the slow, boring phase where we lead each AV to the main room one at a time.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Every 50 I have has soloed Trapdoor as a +2 EB. I never considered him "hard", though he takes planning and very active play. However, I do understand why he is hard for some characters. He's just not hard for any of mine.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Both changed. We were speed running ITFs, STFs, LRSFs Apex and Tin Mage before we got any Incarnate powers.
The crew I run with has, to my knowledge, never run an Apex that wasn't a one-pass Master run, and we speed it. Before incarnates. Yet the forums were alive with how awful hard the Battle Maiden fight was and how impossible it was to beat her under the timer. That ruckus did fade before I19. With I19 and the Alpha slot, it became a murmur. With I20+ I never hear anyone mention it any more. People adjusted and we got more powerful. Combine them and stuff becomes easy and rote. |
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I should add one observation about the difficulty of iTrials. Players who have been around in this game for a long time had a pretty long time to run around at level 50 and kind of get used to the difficulty there, and then move up to the newer stuff as an added challenge. Players who have joined us more recently are now moving through the game and hitting incarnate content head on at level 50.
However difficult the STF or LRSF might have once been, in my mind neither of them compares to the crushing brutality of the iTrials on an imperfectly built toon. My brother is a relatively new player who struggled on his way to 50. After a few months of iTrials he recently expressed his desire to quit playing. The reason is not that his team keeps losing. It's that he keeps dying over and over and over and that he is not good enough to contribute anything to the fighting. People call Lambda "easy" but for him it is clerly beyond his current skill level and is basically a death trap. I think we really need to be careful when we refer to something as "not difficult." Just because a team can carry a trial to victory doesn't mean some team members aren't being annihilated or made to feel sidelined. That said, I was one of the players who said in the beta the trial was boring. Not "easy" necessarily, but boring. I wish they had made it more thrilling instead of more crushing. |
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I can understand wanting a climatic battle. On the other hand, it can be climatic without being so challenging that players would rather have a root canal than to do the trial.
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And to all the people saying "give it a few weeks":
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
So your solution is to have some future, likely even more difficult trials, unlock the Hybrid slot. The problem is that you will continually seek progressively more difficult trials, leave the older trials alone. Meanwhile the developers have explicitly stated (Arbiter Hawk, April 4th Ustream) that a few months after a trial goes live they are reluctant to go back and change it. So the trial remains at a level that becomes a permanent roadblock to character progress.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Essentially what I'm telling you is that the next trial is always going to be the "climax" of the story. The problem is that if you keep subdividing the available players you can end up with not enough players for the task. Triumph has probably hit this first, but I doubt it will be the last.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I'm 50+3 on 11 servers without using any IOs - but as I'm a regen Scrapper, that makes me a goddess by default |
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I have tried it both ways, and to say IOs [and by proxy, the bonuses they provide] are not needed for end-game content is disingenous at best, and a real sardonic hoot of laughter at worst.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes, I've seen my level shift climb as high as 9. That screenshot shows where it didn't. And the Swan fight, sometimes I was +3, sometimes +0, sometimes -3 with no rhyme or reason as to why.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is not working. The character in that screenie does not have level shifts from the lights being out, you can tell because the Olympian guards are red instead of gray. There is some kind of issue with the lights that needs to be fixed. Only being buffed sometimes when the league puts in the effort to play as designed is an unfortunate problem. Bug it.
When it does work, and it does work sometimes, it does show up in the level shift area. I have had it read 9 and the OGs are gray. |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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While others have become VIPs to take part in it |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Some people are so annoyed at this point with the entire Incarnate System that they've unsubscribed.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The Lights of the Well are a little TOO unforgiving. In every run I've done, we've had them all down within 10 seconds of spawning, but that 10 seconds is enough to get Tyrant from around 20% health all the way back up to 40%. (I've been putting a nav marker on the light and jumping back to its position when the counter shows 3 seconds, so at least one is being taken out just as soon as the Quills power activates.)|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
That is only because people were not killing the well things. Kill those and that stage is no different than killing Black swans portals.
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I've also noticed that his lightning attacks continue to do damage for a second or two after the visual effects dissipate. And when he's surrounded by lightning, all I can do is fire off Energy Torrent every 8 seconds, with the occasional blast of my Judgement power whenever that manages to recharge.
My two cents on how to improve this encounter:
1) Make the Quills temp power animate faster.
2) Give about 5 seconds between when the Lights of the Well spawn and when they actually buff Tyrant --OR-- let us stop them from spawning altogether by allowing us attack their spawn points a couple seconds prior.
3) Do something about the Lightning. Either make it so the beams can't overlap (any time I've died to them, it's been because I've gotten hit with 3 or more at once), add an additional 15 seconds to the power's recharge, lower the damage, or lower the total number he can fire at once. Or some combination thereof.
(I think that if my first and second point are taken care of, though, then the third will be less of an issue.)
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Could just farm the first 5 minutes, be done with hybrid in 30 and then go back to farming baf's.
Worked for me.
People are chaining baf's on virtue now. For people who need to slot their hybrids.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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And those becoming VIPs are less than the amount leaving by all indications. People that have done trials in the past on my global lists (friends, global channels) aren't coming back and the new people aren't filling the vacancies. The new subscribers might slow the amount of loss, but the loss is getting bigger all the time.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
While others have become VIPs to take part in it
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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There are reasons to do content other than just to upgrade your powers, you know... Earning badges, completing a story, or even just a sense of accomplishment.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Could just farm the first 5 minutes, be done with hybrid in 30 and then go back to farming baf's.
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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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My global list keeps on increasing, and I keep meeting new people on the Trials all the time |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And those becoming VIPs are less than the amount leaving by all indications. People that have done trials in the past on my global lists (friends, global channels) aren't coming back and the new people aren't filling the vacancies. The new subscribers might slow the amount of loss, but the loss is getting bigger all the time.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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do you have any real data to back this claim up, or just anecdotes? the "We are losing tons of players over this change" is the last refuge of a failed argument, and bring data or try to be convincing otherwise. otherwise the pvp changes of issue 13 killed this game absolutely dead years ago by numerous reports. and i can strangely still log in to something, even get on a successful magi on liberty not more than 10 mins ago. and my build is the comical opposite of min maxed.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And those becoming VIPs are less than the amount leaving by all indications. People that have done trials in the past on my global lists (friends, global channels) aren't coming back and the new people aren't filling the vacancies. The new subscribers might slow the amount of loss, but the loss is getting bigger all the time.
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I don't have subscription numbers. However I do see that Triumph's main channel went from 2,500 accounts to under 1,000 and the amount of players on (visible & hidden) went from over 200 to around 100 at the same time of evening.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
do you have any real data to back this claim up, or just anecdotes? the "We are losing tons of players over this change" is the last refuge of a failed argument, and bring data or try to be convincing otherwise.
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Is it all because of the Incarnate System? No. Is it a factor? Yes.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Is it because they wanted to go to to a server than ran more of them? Is it because they wanted to go to a server where they didn't have to listen to someone constantly complain?
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I don't have subscription numbers. However I do see that Triumph's main channel went from 2,500 accounts to under 1,000 and the amount of players on (visible & hidden) went from over 200 to around 100 at the same time of evening.
Is it all because of the Incarnate System? No. Is it a factor? Yes. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Reward is probably the biggest most consistent driver of players, im not saying nothing else enters into it, but its a biggie for most players.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
There are reasons to do content other than just to upgrade your powers, you know... Earning badges, completing a story, or even just a sense of accomplishment.
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if it wasnt, such a big deal wouldnt be made of merits, salvage, ixp.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Originally Posted by Kragothe
Defeating the lights gives a buff called [Notice of the Well], a 5,000ft (I think) radius aoe buff that hits 16 targets max, yeah SIXTEEN. On my leagues above 16 I have observed not everyone getting all the level shifts.
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Hmm, interesting.
I did at least one Mag. iTrial run last night (possibly two forgot now
) where I watched the Level Shift Real Numbers.I have pictures with all 6 wells being down and I'm still at 3 level shifts. Not just once, but multiple times.
If what you say is true, that would explain it...only 16 of the 24 people getting the level shift?! heh, borked!
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That would explain alot of why people are saying they are having an easier time with 16.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Hmm, interesting.
I did at least one Mag. iTrial run last night (possibly two forgot now ) where I watched the Level Shift Real Numbers.I have pictures with all 6 wells being down and I'm still at 3 level shifts. Not just once, but multiple times. If what you say is true, that would explain it...only 16 of the 24 people getting the level shift?! heh, borked! |
since you would get more proportional buffage.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Yeah, I did some testing during a failing Magisterium run last night. Spent almost the entire fight simply moving from place to place, holding still for a second, and seeing whether my listed level shift adjusted to add on the shifts from the Lights of the Well. I also looked at the shifts applied to several leaguemates. From what I can tell, the shifts only applied if someone was standing in a circle with about the same radius as the crater, centered partway between the center of the crater and the west edge of it. Inside that area, you got the lights' shifts. Outside of it, and you were locked in at +3 no matter what.
A demorecord file I made reveals something called "Well Watcher" at coordinates (-4859 46.3125 19751). Methinks that this, or something like it, has an AoE power which counts the lights, and applies a level shift to each player in range for each light it doesn't see. If it's not in the right place on live, or the radius of that is too small, or something like that, then it seems easy enough for it to be completely failing to shift people standing in the wrong spot.
Assuming this is consistent, and the shifts only work in that area, the same area, every time, then any time Tyrant wanders over to the east parts of the crater, you'd have the whole league fighting as if on a Really Hard Way run. And I really can't see it as WAI that Tyrant has to be in a specific, unmarked spot for the shifts to apply correctly. I tried taking a bunch of screenshots while I was mapping it out, but I was an idiot and left screenshotui off, so I just got a bunch of shots of my guy standing around like an idiot.
Still, if anyone else can make a few simple tests of moving to the various edges of the crater, wandering around the map a bit, etc., all while the lights are down, I'd like someone else to observe this and confirm that I'm not simply mistaken.