Avengers shatters all boxoffice opening weekend records.
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-05-06 19:10 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
That good, huh?
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Yes I feel like posting in memes today what of it?
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
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Broadly I agree with you except that unlike DC's big three, where the origins of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman can be quoted verbatim by even the most casually interested person, but with Marvel it could only be said that Spider-Man and the Hulk (due to the television shows) had any real form of lasting recognition with the public. |
Originally Posted by Magus_Prime
I think you're way off the mark with that statement. Truth is we were already sold on those characters. We would have gone to see it and the movie would have done well even if Mr. Whedon wasn't at the helm. Joss just made sure we didn't pay for something that sucked.
As for his own work, I think he takes a little more care (but not by a huge margin) to produce quality stories from the ground up. His characters have a little more depth and are more relatable. His stories tend to be more clever and the plot twists send me reeling for days. Maybe his own creations don't sell as well but they also don't have the advantage of being embedded in our culture for decades the way Marvel's comic book characters have. |
And even much less so with Iron Man, Thor and the rest of the Avengers. These movies reinvented and resold the core Marvel characters for audiences who thought Marvel entirely consisted of Tobey Maguire, Patrick Stewart, Halle Berry and Hugh Jackman.
DC has had the advantage of being in existence since the 1930's, nearly eighty years now, and Marvel has had half that and with nowhere near the cultural influence thanks to movies like the original Superman. Whedon's mark of quality comes from recognising the Marvel characters and remaining true to them above anything else. I'd argue he has to take more care here to present them authentically because with his own creations, there's no preconceptions with them. They're new and freshly minted. His recent run on the X-Men comic showed that he took the time to get to know the characters and didn't try and reinvent the wheel. And I strongly feel it taught him the structure and styling of what Marvel wanted in their team movie.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Quality isn't the same as popular. The greatest computer game ever is Planescape: Torment, but it was a financial flop. Why? Because 1)Marketing was poor, and 2) It was too sophisticated for the average rube.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Serenity isn't better than Avengers. Honestly, I wish people would take off their fanboy blinkers and just acknowledge some stuff works better than others. If Firefly's setting was going to take off, it just would've. The movie would've done better also, studio interference or no. It's not a knock on the film, but I can see Joss making the transition from television to movies, and it is a significant one. |
And we all know CoH is a much better game than the one with 11 million subs.
The Avengers is a great entertainment movie, but it is never more than that. Serenity is sharper, more insightful, and carries a message.
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| It's like saying somehow that Nathan Fillion made a bad career move in taking Castle, but I don't hear anyone criticising him because the show doesn't have Whedon involved in it. |
Sure, it pays Fillon's bills, but it's not going to be remembered in 10 years.
I really should do something about this signature.
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You're assuming most people outside a small but loyal fanbase "remember" Firefly or Serenity.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Sure, it pays Fillon's bills, but it's not going to be remembered in 10 years.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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STEP AWAY FROM MY FILLION AND TURN AROUND SLOWLY, PRAF...|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Sure, it pays Fillon's bills, but it's not going to be remembered in 10 years.
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I contend that Castle was never meant to be the new Law And Order,but the new Moonlighting.
Point (a): it's memorable - I can still quote half of Atomic Shakespeare despite having last seen it when I was way small.
Point (b): didn't work out too badly for this guy.
...well,apart from that album,which I am in no way embarrassed about owning. And keeping in a locked vault made of vibranium under the polar icecaps, so that its evil can never be unleashed on the world again.
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
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Sorry, but no.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Serenity isn't better than Avengers. Honestly, I wish people would take off their fanboy blinkers and just acknowledge some stuff works better than others. If Firefly's setting was going to take off, it just would've. The movie would've done better also, studio interference or no.
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This makes no sense, ust like the series made no sense on it's original showing due to the way Fox showed it! Have you seen the running order they played it in? It's on Wikipedia, go look it up. They showed the pilot episode last for heavens sakes. How is anyone supposed to understand it all properly like that?
I was lucky. I got to watch it properly, in order, thanks to the DVD set, then I watched the film afterwards. All the episodes were corkers, the storyline made a lot of sense and I was left feeling thoroughly gutted that there would be no more afterwards.
This is a show that Fox seemed determined to kill off, and I have no idea, other than stupidity. Maybe Whedon upset someone, I dunno, but this was never given anything like a fair go.
Also, after the success of Avengers, if he does go back to television, I'd like to see the exec brave enough to cancel one his shows now
We built this city on Rock and Roll!
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Isn't that where they also stored the copies of Shatner and Nimoy singing? |
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
...well,apart from that album,which I am in no way embarrassed about owning. And keeping in a locked vault made of vibranium under the polar icecaps, so that its evil can never be unleashed on the world again.
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Sadly, no.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Isn't that where they also stored the copies of Shatner and Nimoy singing?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC73PHdQX04
Back to the topic at hand: Avengers does prove one thing about Mr. Whedon and similar directors. Quite a lot of people thought that Sam Raimi - previously best known for Evil Dead and Darkman - couldn't handle a big-budget Spidey.
However,the experience of working on those movies proved invaluable in keeping things on a human scale and closely tied to the humanity of each character, rather than the pure Joel Silver/Michael Bay explodeyfest they could have been.
Consider this thing: all the while Loki and the [insert name of disposable villain group here] are tearing up NYC, there are crowds running hither and yon and much grand-scale screaming.
However, we follow one of them: an unnamed waitress (actually Ashley Johnson, who was previously blessed by his Great Fluffy Purple Prevaricatoryness in Dollhouse and will shortly pop up in Much Ado).
And while you might feel the herd mentality, witness the mass panic, they're really just visual statistics that we can observe dispassionately. We, as humans, connect with one other human's fear, panic, hope, despair, and final redemption by a bloke with a big shield. Even if we don't know their name.
This is the wisdom of the Whedon. Go in peace.
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
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Originally Posted by Coin
Sorry, but no.
This makes no sense, ust like the series made no sense on it's original showing due to the way Fox showed it! Have you seen the running order they played it in? It's on Wikipedia, go look it up. They showed the pilot episode last for heavens sakes. How is anyone supposed to understand it all properly like that? I was lucky. I got to watch it properly, in order, thanks to the DVD set, then I watched the film afterwards. All the episodes were corkers, the storyline made a lot of sense and I was left feeling thoroughly gutted that there would be no more afterwards. This is a show that Fox seemed determined to kill off, and I have no idea, other than stupidity. Maybe Whedon upset someone, I dunno, but this was never given anything like a fair go. Also, after the success of Avengers, if he does go back to television, I'd like to see the exec brave enough to cancel one his shows now |
Oy. I'm backing away from this, because it's precisely this kind of response ('no, the show was never given a chance, but it's brilliant no matter what') is an discussion that never ever ends well. Serenity's a fine show. I'm going to leave it at that quite simply because anything I say here is simply going to inflame your sensibilities about the show you care so much for.
I'm just going to constrain myself to discussion about the movie.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Quality isn't the same as popular. The greatest computer game ever is Planescape: Torment, but it was a financial flop. Why? Because 1)Marketing was poor, and 2) It was too sophisticated for the average rube.
And we all know CoH is a much better game than the one with 11 million subs. The Avengers is a great entertainment movie, but it is never more than that. Serenity is sharper, more insightful, and carries a message. Castle is entertaining, but it has an intellectual level somewhat below the A-Team. If you can't spot who done it in the first 5 minutes you are probably the household pet. Sure, it pays Fillon's bills, but it's not going to be remembered in 10 years. |
You're arguing subjectivity now. I've never even played the game you're talking about, so I can't take it on face value that it is the greatest video game ever.
I can't really make it more succinct than that. You're obviously entitled to your opinion and I'm not going to degrade that in any way, so I'll do what I did before and constrain myself to discussions about the movie in hopefully a more objective manner and leave very subjective discussions about other media to one side.
I hope you can do the same.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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That you state these two statements as fact is enough to prove that SuperOz has a point.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Quality isn't the same as popular. The greatest computer game ever is Planescape: Torment, but it was a financial flop. Why? Because 1)Marketing was poor, and 2) It was too sophisticated for the average rube.
And we all know CoH is a much better game than the one with 11 million subs. |
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| Sure, it pays Fillon's bills, but it's not going to be remembered in 10 years. |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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When I saw it as the movie ended, and the initial enthusiastic audience reaction died down someone shouted "I love you Joss Whedon!" and another round of applause and hooting began.|
Originally Posted by Inazuma
*searches for the "Joss Whedon is my Master Now" t-shirt*
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Avengers shows that Whedon is much better working with established material, rather than his own vanity projects.
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(edit: ignore the Buffy comment. Didn't realize/remember he was connected to the original film at all. I'd claim the foibles of forum posting pre-coffee... but I'm was into my second cup at the time.... That said, it further guts the quoted comment.)
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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
However,the experience of working on those movies proved invaluable in keeping things on a human scale and closely tied to the humanity of each character, rather than the pure Joel Silver/Michael Bay explodeyfest they could have been.
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How does it stack up in terms of any adjusted/normalized figures?
What is the lesson that Hollywood is really going to learn? I hope it isn't 'moar 3D & moar IMAX!' (but expect it will be) instead of - more time with character and attention to script helps even an action movie.
As for DC... I was never a fan of their material beyond Batman, so I can so totally agreewith this:
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Originally Posted by Fista
Not to start any flame wars or anything but my son said, "It's 2 and a half hours on why DC can suck it."
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Fun fact to chew on: IMAX ran out of screens/seatspace for Avengers, with one of my US Twitter correspondents travelling six hours to find the nearest midnight showing with seats remaining. The only other movie to come close to that is the Trek reboot.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
How does it stack up in terms of any adjusted/normalized figures?
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However, the actual numbers are still pretty astounding (courtesy of Deadline.Com):
52% 3D (inc. IMAX and others)
40% traditional 2D
8% unreported/waiting for feedback
And of those:
8% IMAX
4% "premium large format" (eg: Cinemark XD, AMC's ETX)
So while the numbers will be padded a bit because of the premium formats,Harry Potter had nearly the same level of screen bookings on both regular and premium - and still didn't glue quite as many bums on seats as Avengers did.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
What is the lesson that Hollywood is really going to learn? I hope it isn't 'moar 3D & moar IMAX!' (but expect it will be) instead of - more time with character and attention to script helps even an action movie.
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We can but hope in the Word of the Whedon, and the deliverance of his Magnificent Purple Fluffy Jumperedness from the evil of executive laziness and awful scripting. Amen.
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
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Dude, please, don't just paint me as some rabid fanboy who can't bear to see his love dissed in any way. I'm not and I hate being made out that way. |
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Oy. I'm backing away from this, because it's precisely this kind of response ('no, the show was never given a chance, but it's brilliant no matter what') is an discussion that never ever ends well. Serenity's a fine show. I'm going to leave it at that quite simply because anything I say here is simply going to inflame your sensibilities about the show you care so much for.
I'm just going to constrain myself to discussion about the movie. S. |
Not for one second am I saying that Firefly is the greatest show ever made, nor do I make claims that it would definitely go on to be just that.
My argument was against your statement that "If Firefly's setting was going to take off, it just would've." That's nonsense when it's not given the chance by being shown in the correct order. You take any successful series, be it movies or TV, show it in completely the wrong order, and it's not going to do as well. Even the hard core sci-fi fans who loved Buffy would have more trouble following it, so it's no surprise that it got cancelled after just 11 episodes that were shown in the order 2,3,6,7,8,4,5,9,10,1. Given how much Whedon built up storylines and characters in his shows, doing that just killed it off.
This isn't about fanboy-worship, this is about saying the show never get a fair chance and to say that if it was good enough, it would have succeeded, is just plain nonsense.
So, yeah, please. don't just denigrate my argument without actually getting the point of it.
We built this city on Rock and Roll!
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I'd bet more will remember him as Joey Buchanan over Mal Reynolds.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
That you state these two statements as fact is enough to prove that SuperOz has a point.
Maybe, but for something to be remembered people have to know about it first. On that fact alone there's a much bigger chance people will remember Fillion as Castle rather than captain Reynolds. And by "a much bigger chance" I mean that it's guaranteed. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Not sure where this comes from. Buffy was very much his from the start. He created and wrote the movie, and also the TV show, right from day one. He might not own the rights to the movie, sadly, but that's normal for any new player in the industry, even nowadays, but he was definitely the creator of it all.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
Sure, Buffy wasn't his at the start, but he sure transformed it and made it his...
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We built this city on Rock and Roll!
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Preach, Sister. |
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
We can but hope in the Word of the Whedon, and the deliverance of his Magnificent Purple Fluffy Jumperedness from the evil of executive laziness and awful scripting. Amen.
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We built this city on Rock and Roll!
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How was Buffy not Joss Whedon's at the start? o.O He wrote the movie. He wrote the start of the series...
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Originally Posted by Chyll
For the life of me I can't begin to fathom at all where this statement comes from or how it is the least bit true. Sure, Buffy wasn't his at the start, but he sure transformed it and made it his... I can think of only one thing that I could call a 'vanity project', and 'Dr. Horrible' is genius...
OK, two. And I'll concede that "Comicbook Men" is not so good. I'd take his success rate. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I stand corrected - I had somehow been under the impression that he was not in any way connected to the original movie.
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Originally Posted by Coin
Not sure where this comes from. Buffy was very much his from the start. He created and wrote the movie, and also the TV show, right from day one.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Very true. Which was what Firefly didn't get. Minimal marketing, and not enough time to build an audience. It's never even been shown on UK free-to-view.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Maybe, but for something to be remembered people have to know about it first. |
But it still managed decent DVD sales.
People have mentioned films like the Godfather, but what they forget is it wasn't an original IP - it was a famous novel first.
You can't put something completely original (and intelligent) on people and expect them to get it straight away. You have to give them time to learn to understand it.
I do think the opening episode should have had a bit more explanation - I think Joss over-estimated the average TV viewer there.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Basically the movie was a result of executive meddling.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
I stand corrected - I had somehow been under the impression that he was not in any way connected to the original movie.
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It was, basically, an absolute mess.
A funny mess at times, but still a mess.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Correct, if my memory serves I don't think Joss was overwhelmingly thrilled with how the movie turned out.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Basically the movie was a result of executive meddling.
It was, basically, an absolute mess. A funny mess at times, but still a mess. |
I do find it funny that there are people who claim that Serenity is a better movie than Avengers. I own Serenity. I went to a pre-screening before it was released. I also saw it in the theater.
It isn't even in the ballpark of Avengers. Sorry, but there's just no way. Only a rabid browncoat could believe otherwise.
Avengers may well be the best superhero movie of all time (it's certainly in the running). Serenity doesn't happen to be close to the top Science Fiction movies of all time.
Too many alts to list.
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Indeed. I didn't get to see much of it when it aired. But the first episode was kind of bewildering - I thought I had missed something - and after that the show was either getting pre-empted by sports or the timeslot got moved. I couldn't keep up with it. I didn't even get around to seeing it in its entirety (and apparently its proper order) until within the last couple of years. At which point I felt it was kind of a shame it didn't get to continue, as it seemed like the kind of show that would really start to shine in its 2nd or 3rd season.
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Originally Posted by Coin
My argument was against your statement that "If Firefly's setting was going to take off, it just would've." That's nonsense when it's not given the chance by being shown in the correct order. You take any successful series, be it movies or TV, show it in completely the wrong order, and it's not going to do as well. Even the hard core sci-fi fans who loved Buffy would have more trouble following it, so it's no surprise that it got cancelled after just 11 episodes that were shown in the order 2,3,6,7,8,4,5,9,10,1. Given how much Whedon built up storylines and characters in his shows, doing that just killed it off.
This isn't about fanboy-worship, this is about saying the show never get a fair chance and to say that if it was good enough, it would have succeeded, is just plain nonsense. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I don't mind if Whedon has cameos by Firefly or Buffy alumni in the next movie, as Alexis Denisoff (Wesley from Buffy/Angel) was the voice of the herald of Thanos. So there's precedent.
But.
Serenity isn't better than Avengers. Honestly, I wish people would take off their fanboy blinkers and just acknowledge some stuff works better than others. If Firefly's setting was going to take off, it just would've. The movie would've done better also, studio interference or no. It's not a knock on the film, but I can see Joss making the transition from television to movies, and it is a significant one.
It's like saying somehow that Nathan Fillion made a bad career move in taking Castle, but I don't hear anyone criticising him because the show doesn't have Whedon involved in it.
Both the Avengers and Star Wars stand above the Serenity movie because they cross the barrier from 'fans only' to 'everyone' while giving the audience characters to identify with. It doesn't invalidate the quality of Serenity or Firefly, they're both quality works. But it's clearly measureable by both cultural impact and popularity what's working in terms of broad appeal and a large part of that revolves around the ability to engage not just one section of the audience, but the broad majority.
That is absolutely the single hardest thing that any movie has to do, and those that do it become runaway successes. Star Wars and the Avengers never once had to compromise what they were to achieve that success. Serenity for good or ill is targeted at a smaller audience. You couldn't just get on board with the story without having seen Firefly first. That's a mark against it.
Does this mean Whedon will go back to the Firefly/Serenity universe? Maybe...but I wouldn't blame him if he never did, both thanks to how he got treated by the networks and the fact that the cast have all moved onto other things. I appreciate it for what it is, but I won't hold it on a pedastal and proclaim its superiority to all others either.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse