I really dislike the PPM system because it's difficult to understand. It's opaque, especially in AOE and come powers. I can't even begin to imagine trying to figure it out for weird things like Oil Slick Arrow.
I've spent lots of time earning procs ingame and slotting them in various powers and it's usually pretty easy to understand how it will work : The power has a flat chance of going off when triggered. In attacks "triggered" means when it hits. For toggle and pulsing powers that means every 10 seconds.
With the new method we have to figure out what Recharge is going to be counted (which is possibly one of the daftest things about all of this as Hopeling has already outlined), if there's an AOE or Cone modifier involved, stick it into a complex fomula and then clamp it to 90%.
You're overcomplicating things for no real reason. The market procs should never have been implemented in this way and the fact you've now got to implement the same horrible, overcomplex mechanism across the board has an impact on a lot of characters.
This is the opposite of KISS, an overcomplex mechansim which you still haven't provided the full details for. It honestly sounds like you initially came up with the concept, over analysed it, forced it slightly and are now trying to pick up the pieces
I'm very unhappy about the way you've decided to implement this, and the way you went about doing so. Waiting until AFTER the Hecatomb went onto the market is also a terrible decision.
Okay, while I'm all for parity between Store bought and game-produced procs, this worries me a bit.
Dropping a cap on how often a proc does, in fact, proc, I can kinda see. Something that goes off 100% of the time, guaranteed (by math) ceases to be a "proc" for all intents and purposes. And yeah, I can see how people would be peeved at this.
The fact that I'm going to be penalized for putting procs in AoE attacks is irritating as hell. What kind of ******* sense does it make to penalize me for putting a proc from an AoE set into an actual AoE attack? This is an unwelcome change.
What REALLY worries me is the fact that these procs are now going to be affected by "modified" recharge rather than base recharge. As others have said, especially in team settings, it's quite possible to be DROWNING in recharge buffs. Now we're looking at a situation where aiding a teammate actually works as a functional debuff?
In my not-so-humble opinion this is absolutely ludicrous and "were you dropped on your head extensively as a child?" levels of stupid. Even with significantly increased PPM chances, this is a nerf of massive proportions. Even to people rocking the old "set chance" regular procs.
If this change goes into effect without further modification to address the modified recharge issue I will be cutting back on my spending on the Paragon Market as a punitive measure and will encourage others to do the same (in ways that don't have the mods whining at me here about violating (written or unwritten) rules of forum etiquette).
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That example doesn't come close to what is going on here. Physical items you actually own can't compare to digital objects owned by a game company that... basically... you are renting.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Sorry you lost my money for store bought IOs with the performance shifter changes. Imagine if your car manufacturer remote flashed its firmware so it couldn't tune to your favorite radio stations ? Then met your complaints with clauses from your finance contract ?
In the case of a car radio I would likely sue, represent myself pro se and take it out of the company in their costs. In this case I'll just not buy IOs anymore. |
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| Let me illustrate why. I have alts. Alts all over the place. I am not alone in this. When I go to play my Emp/Rad defender with procs in his attacks and all of a sudden those attacks aren't doing much of anything because the procs aren't firing that is going to be a problem. I won't be able to play that toon. When I go to play my Crab Spider that has the Achiles chance of proc slotted three times and my attacks are no longer working in a way I recognize, its going to be a problem for me. |
I guess I might look at Procs differently than folks in this thread. To me, they are a bonus: cool when they go off, whatever when they don't... the power its in still does what it's supposed to. The Proc isn't part of the power... it's a gift to me. The power is the important thing.
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For me in quite a few cases the procs are the primary reason for taking the power.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
That example doesn't come close to what is going on here. Physical items you actually own can't compare to digital objects owned by a game company that... basically... you are renting.
Wait, wait WAIT! You are saying that because your Procs might Proc a little less often that the character in question becomes unplayable? This idea does not make a lick of sense to me. Not even a bit. I guess I might look at Procs differently than folks in this thread. To me, they are a bonus: cool when they go off, whatever when they don't... the power its in still does what it's supposed to. The Proc isn't part of the power... it's a gift to me. The power is the important thing. |
I don't mind procs being adjusted in a sensible way which is easy to calculate but this is totally the opposite of that. How are we supposed to know if a proc is a good purchase for a power now, too many new variables have been introduced into the formula.
after some thought and reading what others have wrote, i do kind of agree that #2 might not be totally necessary
#3 is something that shouldnt necessary either, and i agree with others that this still screws over high rech builds
#4 is only in there because of #3, if #3 doesnt happen then #4 wont either im guessing
Haven't had time to fully digest the implications of this but.
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"Reasonable level of recharge" varies with level, at level 20 you will have a lot less recharge on average than at level 50, has any consideration been given to varying the ppm rate by level (character level not enhancement level). I'm not sure if using adjusted recharge is sufficient here or not.| I think it's important to stress that the overall impact to gameplay this will have on existing PPM enhancements will be small. That said players will notice a small performance hit at very high levels of recharge. The balancing point for the increased procs per minute rates will be based upon a reasonable level of recharge. That amount will likely change through beta testing. You'll all have a chance to play test this on the beta servers in the not so distant future. |
Also can I echo the request for clarity on how this works in AoEs, ST attacks always target their maximum number of targets, AoEs don't so can we be told what the number of targets used for the proc rate calculation is please, as currently I have no idea if I should be using the ATIO procs in ST or AoE attacks.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Actually I do have one meaningful suggestion in the middle of this mire of confusion (although I nicked it from someone : Bill I think)
Seeing as you're able to clamp the proc rate to 90% already can we also have a lower end clamp, so we can at least have an idea of what the proc range is going to be?
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Per Arcanaville a while ago, the proc rate is adjusted by the power's aoemod (used to calculate how much less damage it does than an equivalent ST attack), which is based on arc and radius. Target cap actually is not even a factor. And cones were wonky somehow, I'm not sure if that's been fixed yet.|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
Also can I echo the request for clarity on how this works in AoEs, ST attacks always target their maximum number of targets, AoEs don't so can we be told what the number of targets used for the proc rate calculation is please, as currently I have no idea if I should be using the ATIO procs in ST or AoE attacks.
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Give me a couple minutes to dig up the post and the formula.
Edit: OK, here's one of the relevant posts, which also contains the formula: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=164
That formula can be simplified to:
AoEMod = 1 + radius * (11 * arc + 540) / 30000
which is equivalent, but much nicer to look at.
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Look, I don't care that the store-bought IOs I paid for are going to be evenly balanced to in-game IOs as long as I maintain a better advantage than what I had before SBEs.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
Hi All,
1) All IO procs will have their flat percentage chance to trigger updated to use Procs Per Minute. 2) Proc chance will cap at 90%. This means that there is always a small chance for the proc to not trigger even if slotted into a power that would previously guarantee a proc. 3) Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered. 4) To compensate for this, the Procs Per Minute on all enhancements will be increased. I think it's important to stress that the overall impact to gameplay this will have on existing PPM enhancements will be small. That said players will notice a small performance hit at very high levels of recharge. The balancing point for the increased procs per minute rates will be based upon a reasonable level of recharge. |
But then there is THIS:
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| 3) Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered. |
"Small performance hit" my butt!
I didn't throw my money at Paragon Studios to just so they could destroy ALL of my procs, both SBE and IO. I can understand the other changes, but #3 is a global stealth nerf, the likes of which if I've haven't seen since ED.
How could you even suggest this?!
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Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
I am not so bothered about the cap, but the big gripe for me is that I spend a long time planning my builds and for someone to put SB on me and actually make me worse is NOT good!
Keep the current PPM rating, and build around base recharge, you can still get to roughly the same end numbers if you take into account average +recharge, but this time recharge will be a buff and not a nerf!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Well for one thing, (6.5+2.23)*4.5/60 = .65 = 65%, which is still substantially greater than 33%. But also,
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Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
This PENALIZES EVERY BUILD with high recharge speed, and therefore you are effectively nerfing high-performance end-game builds with this change. My Knockout Blow has been reduced to nearly 6.5 seconds - firing off a Purple PPM based on the modified value won't even amount to the EXISTING 33% chance to fire on the standard in-game Hecatomb!
"Small performance hit" my butt! I didn't throw my money at Paragon Studios to just so they could destroy ALL of my procs, both SBE and IO. I can understand the other changes, but #3 is a global stealth nerf if I've ever seen one. How could you even suggest this?! |
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Originally Posted by Synapse
4) To compensate for this, the Procs Per Minute on all enhancements will be increased.
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I appreciate the breakdown. However, I know I'm going to look stupid for asking this, but please clarify where these values are coming from. The original PPM formula had a baseline of 4 seconds before exceeding standard 20% Proc rates. 6.5 seconds is not a significant improvement from that.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Well for one thing, (6.5+2.23)*4.5/60 = .65 = 65%, which is still substantially greater than 33%. But also,
which means you'll actually get a higher chance than that, probably much higher, depending on how much PPMs are increased by. |
EDIT: I realize that was in comparison to 3ppm as opposed to a 4.5, but that still seems like a pretty big jump.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
That 4-second threshold assumes a 3 PPM proc. The threshold is a result of the actual proc chance formula, which is
(PPM x Cycle Time)/60
And for AoEs,
(PPM x Cycle Time)/(60 x aoemod)
This means that a 3-PPM proc (most of them) has a 20% chance at 4 seconds, and 100% at 20 seconds. A 4.5-PPM proc (Hecatomb) has a 33% chance at 4.5 seconds, and 100% at 13.3 seconds. Also, cycle time is (recharge time + activation time), not just recharge, so when Knockout Blow recharges in 6.5 seconds, it has a cycle time of 8.73 seconds.
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Thank you for further clarifying.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
That 4-second threshold assumes a 3 PPM proc. The threshold is a result of the actual proc chance formula, which is
(PPM x Cycle Time)/60 And for AoEs, (PPM x Cycle Time)/(60 x aoemod) This means that a 3-PPM proc (most of them) has a 20% chance at 4 seconds, and 100% at 20 seconds. A 4.5-PPM proc (Hecatomb) has a 33% chance at 4.5 seconds, and 100% at 13.3 seconds. Also, cycle time is (recharge time + activation time), not just recharge, so when Knockout Blow recharges in 6.5 seconds, it has a cycle time of 8.73 seconds. |
Still wondering how this is going to affect the procs on Jab and Haymaker though. I can't imagine a scenario where Jab would even get the baseline 20% from these changes, especially since the SBE procs already offer lower activation rates on Jab than standard IO procs. There would have to be a 20% floor to stabilize it.
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I am not so bothered about the cap, but the big gripe for me is that I spend a long time planning my builds and for someone to put SB on me and actually make me worse is NOT good!
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Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Yeah, I hope a floor or something is implemented. It's one thing for slower powers to now be a relatively better place to put the proc, but it's another matter to trash the existing uses and make them worse than they currently are.
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Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
Still wondering how this is going to affect the procs on Jab and Haymaker though. I can't imagine a scenario where Jab would even get the baseline 20% from these changes, especially since the SBE procs already offer lower activation rates on Jab than standard IO procs. There would have to be a 20% floor to stabilize it.
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The variables involved with adjustments based on recharge speed is also... concerning.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Yeah, I hope a floor or something is implemented. It's one thing for slower powers to now be a relatively better place to put the proc, but it's another matter to trash the existing uses and make them worse than they currently are.
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Someone brought up an interesting point about now having to adjust recharge speeds to be very precise to maximize proc output, but that can be very easily thrown entirely out of whack in a team environment where recharge speed buffs get thrown around like candy. It's a highly unbalanced variable, and punishes players like myself who take even more recharge speed than my chain calls for to capitalize on my Click utility powers.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
Here we go...
Please leave this as is and don't screw up the game. Leave stuff alone and keep everything the way it is. Don't let the whiners screw up yet another aspect of the game. I don't want ppms. Keep them store bought or remove them altogether.
I'm fine with the change over to PPM, though as others have said hopefully there will be a solid floor so that fast-recharging powers or being particularly highly buffed by teammates don't become less attractive.
That being said,
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Please stop with things like this. A random chance to fail is not enjoyable and does not add anything meaningful to the game aside from frustration. If it wasn't a PPM type but just a 90% chance to proc, then I'd be fine (probably pretty happy, in fact) to throw that into any power, depending on the proc itself. But when I'm throwing something into a power on the idea that because this power takes a long time to recharge-- even with good levels of recharge-- that the proc goes off basically every time, then I really must strenuously object to it now having a chance to fail. You're switching fully to a PPM system to, I assume, smooth out the rate of procs; don't ruin it with a miss chance. It just seems arbitrary and somewhat poor design, honestly. We already have a constant chance to miss which prevents the proc from activating, we don't need a second one on top of it.
| 2) Proc chance will cap at 90%. This means that there is always a small chance for the proc to not trigger even if slotted into a power that would previously guarantee a proc. |
It's about time this happened. We've been trying to get you guys to make IOs more like attuned IOs from the start.
However, depending on how it's implemented, the modified recharge based proc chance would very likely mean that any recharge buffs past a full attack chain would be a penalty instead of something that doesn't affect me at all.
I'd suggest keeping the procs per minute based on the base recharge of the power, tweaking them slightly so it's not so absurdly easy to hit 100% with them (I don't see anything wrong with a 100% hard cap myself), and then enforcing a hard limit to how often they can proc per minute.
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This is pretty much how I feel. After the BoTZ nerf I accepted that in game enhancements can change and from there on out never put a lot of effort into acquiring them. SBE on the other hand I thought would be different; after all I spent actual money on them. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
... Basically, don't buy IOs, people.
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Good thing I don't get paid for thinking...
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
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Arc ID: 413575
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
As Synapse stated, this is a change in game design with the intent of bringing parity to both SBE's and Crafted IO's. The intent of the change addresses a very real concern and complaint that has been voiced.
If you have concerns regarding your purchase, those should be addressed with customer service. In this thread, I would ask that you please discuss the mechanic changes specifically as it effects *all* enhancements, and not the nature of your purchase. Should you have additional thoughts, you are encouraged to PM myself (don't PM Synapse as he has nothing to do with Store policies) and I will be more than happy to pass along your concerns to the appropriate parties. Thanks. -Z |
If you want to bring parity make crafted IO procs IDENTICAL to SBE's and add a floor to the proc chance for quick recharging abilities so they never get below a certain baseline chance. Problem solved. Don't break my toys because little timmy thinks his toys aren't as shiny. Just break out the polish and shine his toys up.
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Procs are a chance to happen. Which necessarily mean a chance not to happen. The new PPMs had a mechanical side effect that in some powers their chance to happen went to 100%. A decision was made to allow that to happen.|
Originally Posted by Chonos
Please stop with things like this. A random chance to fail is not enjoyable and does not add anything meaningful to the game aside from frustration. If it wasn't a PPM type but just a 90% chance to proc, then I'd be fine (probably pretty happy, in fact) to throw that into any power, depending on the proc itself. But when I'm throwing something into a power on the idea that because this power takes a long time to recharge-- even with good levels of recharge-- that the proc goes off basically every time, then I really must strenuously object to it now having a chance to fail. You're switching fully to a PPM system to, I assume, smooth out the rate of procs; don't ruin it with a miss chance. It just seems arbitrary and somewhat poor design, honestly. We already have a constant chance to miss which prevents the proc from activating, we don't need a second one on top of it.
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Now that the PPM formula is being revamped, the PPMs are getting an over all buff (we don't know how much, but I'm assuming the buff is to compensate for how the change in mechanics might slightly nerf how some PPMs currently work). With that over all buff, it's likely that the PPMs which were going off at 100% would be too over powered, which justifies capping their proc rate to 90%.
That's not a built in chance to fail, unless you purposely misconstrue what procs are meant to be and assume that 100% proc rate is normal... it's not. It was an aberration which was at one time allowed and will now be disallowed.
(And please don't bring the 100% procking Health and Stealth IOs into this... they are different creatures and were made to be 100% procking from their inception.)
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I really feel like the whole PPM mechanic was unnecessary from the start. Procs worked fine the way they have for several years.
However, now that we have them, I do think it's important to make sure that ALL of the procs work the same way.
Reading the OP, I have a couple concerns about what's being done.
1. It looks like this is going to screw over high recharge characters some. I'm definitely not happy about that. As many have already suggested, putting a floor on the proc chance of what the regular procs already have would be the easiest solution to this. So the hecatomb proc I have in greater fire sword would have, at minimum, a 33% chance to proc regardless of the recharge of the power.
2. I really have no idea how PPM procs work in AoE powers, since I haven't used them much. The only exception is the brute chance for fury proc that I have in footstomp, and it seems like that thing almost never goes off. So I worry that this is going to be a major nerf to the way procs currently work in AoE powers. Maybe I'm concerned about nothing here, and the other PPM procs work similarly to the way that normal procs do in AoE powers.
As long as those two concerns are addressed, I've got no issues with doing this.
Although I do think that selling people SBEs for real money, then nerfing them is a ****** way to treat your customers.
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True. What is especially crummy about this is that they have done this, again. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If forums are any indicator, it's far more common a misconception that this is what happens all the time, and that it will happen in their favor whenever something they don't like is covered by an EULA. Or rather, perhaps, that anything they don't like is actually a crime.
There's lots of crummy ways to treat customers that aren't illegal. The usual extent of the penalty is that those customers go away. If you're crummy enough, you lose more from doing that than you make by being crummy. If you're not that crummy, life goes on. |
In my opinion anyone who buys an SBE is throwing away Paragon Points which would be better spent on just about anything else in the Paragon Market.
What next? It's too overpowered to have the SBEs that level up with your character so we're changing them to being fixed at the lowest level they exist.
All I can do is never buy additional Paragon Points. I'll use my stipend from my subscription but Paragon's not seeing one additional penny from me after my subscription.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
1st it means these
Speaking with my money.
In the case of a car radio I would likely sue, represent myself pro se and take it out of the company in their costs. In this case I'll just not buy IOs anymore.
The new changes while by no means a a crime are much worse, they are blunders.
Let me illustrate why. I have alts. Alts all over the place. I am not alone in this. When I go to play my Emp/Rad defender with procs in his attacks and all of a sudden those attacks aren't doing much of anything because the procs aren't firing that is going to be a problem. I won't be able to play that toon. When I go to play my Crab Spider that has the Achiles chance of proc slotted three times and my attacks are no longer working in a way I recognize, its going to be a problem for me.
So what the changes mean for me are lots and lots of respecs, lots of redoing builds, lots of time not playing the game, many many broken toys.
I have to wonder what was the compelling reason to annoy your players ?