Enhancement Proc Changes

I mentioned early in the thread that I don't know that they aren't trying to do that, too, but I believe the way they implemented PPM rates initially suggests they are are not trying to make that specific change. They set PPMs so that, for single-target powers, PPM procs were break even with non-SBE procs for powers with cycle times of 3-4 seconds. Given that extremely few powers have less than 1s activation time and 2-3s base recharge times, that suggests they were trying to break even at a minimum on the vast majority of powers.

Gambler's Cut.

...I have to hold off leveling my Katana/Regen now, at least until I get clarity on how these PPM changes would affect it.

Parity is nice. I'm fine with this. Heck, I'm even fine if the SBOs retain some small advantage; doesn't bother me either way; the SBO sets are already attuned, which has some advantages (keeping set bonuses while exemplaring) & disadvantages (can't +5 them), so them being slightly different from IOs is already in the game. However, I'd strongly suggest adding in a proc rate floor, so that the new parity-ized procs are never worse than the old percent-chance procs.

If you *really* want parity, though, maybe make it so enhancement catalysts can convert an IO to an attuned enhancement, or vice versa? Actually, if you did that, you could even drop this whole changing everything to PPM notion - let people swap to whichever form of proc works better for the specific power they put it in; presto, parity achieved.

I don't like this, though. Being able to add a proc to a power in a way where it'll always trigger is neat. It's an interesting game mechanic. It's a way to change what that power is, and giving that a chance-to-fail doesn't make the game more interesting. Look at Diablo 3 runes - with no proc chance cap, you can do the same thing here; how cool is that?

That said... I'm not (aside from maybe the stalker ATO) going to make a huge fuss about this one. I don't like it, but it's not truly horrible.

This, however, is truly horrible, for reasons mentioned multiple times in this thread: once you have an attack chain, recharge "buffs" reduce your proc chance, without giving you commensurately more chances to use your powers. Increasing PPM rates may make DPS stay about the same for some characters, but doesn't fix the underlying flaw; buffs should not reduce your damage output / chance to proc hide / whatever.

Conclusion: I, for one, really appreciate the heads-up that you're looking at this stuff, and the opportunity to provide feedback, and look forward to seeing what you come up with once that feedback has been taken into account.

So if your landlord, decided that electricity was bad for the environment and cut it off to the rental you are leasing, you would be fine with it ? After you had paid him to install a larger air conditioner ?

The concept is the same. You purchase something that is changed to the point where it is no longer what you bought after purchase. I can't imagine how anyone can argue this a legitimate right of the seller.

Neutrino bolt has a base recharge time of 1.5 seconds

An apocalypse proc currently in neutrino bolt has a 33% chance to go off

A 6 PPM proc current system will have a 15 % chance

A 6 PPM proc new system on a 200% recharge build will have a 5% chance

Damage for neutrino bolt goes from 77 points to 47.

Someone speed boosts me, hits me with a fortune and drops an ageless my proc rate drops to 3 3/4 %

Think of it as a slot machine. You play a slot machine that is advertised as paying out 1 in 3 times. You find out it was actually paying out 1 in 30 times.

Would it be wrong for all powers to have the same threshold as the 4 second cycle time powers? Should Gamblers Cut be better than Slash for proc rate?

On the one hand, powers like Snap Shot and Gamblers sometimes suffer in DPA due to the lower damage that comes with the faster recharge, so maybe it isn't a problem if they get slightly more procs than another set.

I wouldn't go that far.

In the end, I have full confidence that any SBE PPM proc will be as good or better than its current Legacy Proc analogue. That should be satisfactory to most folk.

However, if you're chasing SBE PPM procs because they're *way better* than any Legacy Proc... then you might be disappointed if that is eventually balanced back (i.e. 'nerfed') to something more reasonable.

People have a lot of valid concerns in this thread. However, one particularly invalid concern is that a SBE PPM which is currently way overpowered should be kept in its current overpowered state because they paid money for it. That won't fly. A policy of Paragon Studios stated by several different devs over the years is that no matter how long or established a bug or mechanical imbalance may be, the devs reserve the right to fix/balance it at any time. People who chase edge cases for unusually large gains should learn not to become attached to their overpowered niches.

Again, this point doesn't take away other valid concerns for getting PPMs implemented reasonably.

They also reserve the right to change the goalposts for what is "Imbalanced" at any time, which is, you should essentially never get attached to anything. You have almost no control or input into the game ever.

4-5 years of Energy Transfer "Working as Intended" followed by the crappiest, overall powerset balance destroying nerf ever, IMO, convinced me of this fact.

And I still guarantee that as soon as they can figure out a way to sell it as a "positive" change like they've done with this PPM change, IO Defense bonuses, particularly S/L and Melee will get -slashed-.

Anything is possible, but that hypothetical change and this actual change are worlds apart in nature. Making everything use PPM mechanics is potentially disruptive to current builds, but not wildly disruptive in two regards.

• PPM procs are a pretty new thing. "Nerfing" their top-end performance is only strongly affecting cutting-edge builds, recently modified to take maximal advantage of them. IO set Defense bonuses have been around since I9. That's not to say they don't change old things - the ET change showed that. But it's rather reasonable for them to be changing PPM because it's still pretty new.
• Total loss of DPS in the worst "nerf" cases we're talking about is almost certainly less dramatic than the disruption to survival that would come from "slashing" defense bonuses. DPS contributions are linear, while +Defense and DR contributions to survival follow 1/(1-x).

So the devs could do anything, but I think drawing a line between this and dramatic changes to defense bonuses seems particularly tinfoil hat-ish from where I'm standing.

Just to dispel any confusion I wanted to clarify something regarding enhancements like Numina's Convalesence: +Regen/Recovery, Regenerative Tissue: +Regen and Miracle: +Recovery. These enhancements aren't procs. They always fire off when the power they're slotted into activated. These enhancements won't be affected by this change as they have a 100% chance to trigger and are in fact NOT a proc.

Regards,
Synapse

I'm currently considering having a minimum chance to proc of 10-15%, so this particular example might not be as dramatically affected as you mention here.

This is good news

Although I personally think it should be 10% for 15% procs, 13% for 20% and 22% for 33% (ie around 2/3s of the current value as the floor)

That would be great.

I've always wondered... what do you Devs call them, then?

All we ever got in terminology was Positron who mentioned 'procs' as a procedure with a chance to happen. But then we got three classes of Special IOs that work by themselves rather than in a set:

1. Special IOs with a Global-like bonus: These follow the -3 minimum rule to 'work' and work even if the power is not used or even greyed out.

2. Special IOs with a 'proc': These do not follow the -3 minimum rule to 'work' but only work when the power is activated and have a chance to happen that is less than 100%.

3. Special IOs with a 100% chance to 'proc' and a 120 minute duration in click powers. These are more like 'procs' then the Global bonus Special IOs.

So... what do *you* call them?

This shows that we now have your attention on this matter and you guys are making a serious effort to fix the mess PPM has introduced. This is good and will hopefully lead to a satisfactory adjustment.

I don't really argue with any of this, but I still maintain that procs worked fine. Sure, they could have worked better, but they were quite useful and valuable the way they were. I never really considered it a problem that they favored short recharge powers. I actually thought it was kind of a nice feature, since generally, the shorter the recharge, the less powerful the power is. Procs were most useful to the powers that needed the most help.

Well I certainly wouldn't disagree with this.

Again, I don't think that procs were a bad mechanic in the first place. They could have been better, but they weren't bad. And I explained why I like them the way they are.

I do realize that this isn't coming out for 2 more issues and nothing is set in stone yet, but based on the OP, it sounds like in some circumstances, already existing procs will be nerfed. Calling it a nerf isn't trying to protect a niche, it's calling a spade a spade. And I hardly think you can fault people who leveraged the old proc mechanics when they've existed that way for five years now, and unlike some other similar mechanics (the recent change to HOs for example) we were never told that this was a bug that would eventually be fixed.

I'd like to suggest making the minimum be based on the PPM value, so that higher PPM procs have a higher minimum, to prevent situations where a Purple proc has no better chance to activate than an Orange proc.

This is an interesting idea. Something like 10 + ~2 per PPM for example maybe?

Synapse

Any particular reason you're considering this rather than just setting the floor at whatever the fixed proc chance is now?

And will the minimum proc chance for purples be higher, considering that the proc chance on them now is considerably higher than the proc chance on any non-purple procs?

Something like that sounds good to me. Whether that actual value is desirable depends on your goals for minimum performance, and how much you are raising the PPMs of the procs as mentioned in the OP. For example-- is one of your goals to reduce the output we're getting from the 33% in-game Purple procs on fast powers like Neutrino Bolt and Shadow Punch? If so, then those values sound fine to me. If not, then the constant or per PPM values need to raise.

But yeah, I agree with the basic idea there.

The RW cost gives you the Attuned quality; higher proc performance was not intended.

That's actually the goal of that formula. The minimum proc chance for purples would be higher using a formula like that, because they have higher PPM values.