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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Or, if you take Spiritual/Agility, you could remove any recharge enhancements in the powers that have procs.
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serious question: so what if i want to slot a full set of Stalkers Guile into Assassin's Strike... recharge enhancement makes up 5/6 of the set. I've loaded this set into every stalker I play, and they all use it in AS, it's the only power i'm interested in putting it in. at this point, is my choice to either not use spiritual or agility alphas, or not use the set I paid for?
Stalkers Guile ED caps enhanced recharge already, as do most of the Archetype sets I've used. This alone is apparently going to affect the proc in those sets and effectively gut DPS potential for *my* stalkers, at the least. I don't use uber pre-analyzed attack chains or anything, I just use powers I want to use when I want to use them. the one power I do use consistently now is AS.
Now given that the Stalkers Guile chance to hide proc will only activate once every 10 seconds no matter what, due to the buff it puts on you when it procs... it already has a cap to how it can be used, unlike most of the other procs.
so can Synapse, or anyone, tell me how this particular proc is going to be affected by the proposed changes? because from where I'm standing it looks like there isn't really a way to increase PPM from where it currently is, so the 90% chance to proc is only going to lower PPM in this case, then add in the inclusion of recharge enhancement reducing it further, and/or the alpha... it's basically made worthless unless the core way the proc functions is changed as well.
EDIT:below - just saw this as I was looking through the thread trying to catch up.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
Okay, here's what I've come up with. The differences are FAR less dramatic than my first proposal:
1) Increase the PPM value by 20-25% (So a 4 PPM proc would become 5ish PPM) NOTE: The exact amount is still being figured out. 2) Replace the Base Recharge used by the PPM formula to only take into recharge enhancements affecting that power. This means recharge boosts from powers like Speed Boost, Hasten, Chrono Shift and Global Recharge from Enhancement effects like Luck of the Gambler's: +Def/+Global Rech 7.5% are not factored in. 3) Procs will have a maximum chance to trigger. I'm leaning toward 90-95%. There will be a minimum chance to proc equal to 5 plus 1.5 per PPM. Only the most extreme instances of very low recharge, cast time and area factor will cause this to occur. 4) All non-PPM enhancements with a chance to trigger less than 100% will use PPMs. (Note: Enhancements like Numina's Convalesence: Regen/Recovery will not be affected by this change as they have 100% chance to trigger). 5) The formula will treat Area Factor differently. Instead of simply using the flat Area Factor of the power, it will use 1 plus 75% of the difference between 1 and its actual AF. I think I heard a couple of you say "Huh?" Let me give you an example and then explain why. Let's take a look at Dark Regeneration shall we? It has an Area Factor of 4, base recharge of 30 seconds and cast time of 1.17s. Using current PPMs with Essence Theft (3PPMs) it has a 39% chance to proc per target. With the new formula we'll treat area factor as being slightly smaller than it is now. So the new formula would treat this Area Factor as 3.25. (1+(.75*(Actual Area Factor-1)). The simple version is: Area Factor will have a smaller impact on proc chance reduction. Okay, now onto the example. Let's use Assassin's Strike slotted with Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide (Standard): CURRENT PPMs Assassin Strike Base Recharge: 15 seconds Cast Time: 1 second Area Factor: 1 Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide PPM: 4 Proc Chance: 106.7% PROPOSED PPMs Assassin Strike Base Recharge: 15 Cast Time: 1 second Area Factor Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide PPM: 5 0% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 33% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 66% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 83.6% 100% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 70.8% Superior Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide 0% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 33% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 66% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 100% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 88.5% PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 25% bonus to existing PPMs. Now the why... As many of you have mentioned it seems odd to penalize players' proc chances for strengthening their builds with global recharge. So, only recharge modification from enhancements and enhancement-like effects (like Alpha Slot effects) will modify proc chance. We also realized, after looking at a great number of affected powers, that we were over penalizing AoE powers with PPMs. So, we've lightened the impact Area Factor has on the formula. Thanks for all the great feedback and really making me look for creative, but appropriate ways to solve this problem. Thoughts? Synapse |
So in regards to the Stalkers Guile chance to hide, you took where it currently sits being able to activate no more than 5ppm due to the buff it places on you when it procs, increased the actual PPM to reflect 5, then reduced the proc chance (90%) and added the additional qualifier that if you choose to slot the whole set for the bonuses, you will be greatly less effective and end up with approximately 3PPM which can be further reduced if you actually use AS while the procs "buff" is still on you, not allowing you to go into hide even if the proc "hits" and then reduced further again if you choose to slot any alpha that has a recharge component. to me, that looks like it will be typically just under half as effective as it currently is... or about a 60% nerf, in practice, garnering around 2-3PPM as the end result. the impact looks to be much less on paper, but in-game that seems like quite a huge difference.
considering that the proc will not work if you are under the stalkers guile buff it places on you, and that buff lasts 10 seconds, there is no way to activate it more than 5 times per minute under ideal circumstances when considering activation time, no matter what it says "on paper". even with the fast 1s animation time of un-hidden AS, you're looking at 1 proc every 11 seconds at best which would allow for a 5ppm "cap" already effective in its current state on live. there is absolutely no way to overcome the 5ppm "cap" regardless of how much slotted or global recharge you have.
EDIT: p.s. there is also no way to increase the ppm of the catalyst version of this proc/set over 5ppm, since it also places the same 10 second buff on you when it procs. the changes effectively make the standard version 2PPM and the catalyst version 4PPM, approximately, from what I can see here.
Ok i read a few pages, not all....
No comment on the comments.
Forgive me if i do not wanna read through all these pages for a few questions i have.
I'd like to know if the store and regular versions will be the same, or if the store version will be better.
i just hope that both versions will be the same.
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The idea is that after issue 24, in-game procs and store-bought procs will be identical, and both use the new PPM mechanic.
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Originally Posted by Dark Energon
Ok i read a few pages, not all....
No comment on the comments. Forgive me if i do not wanna read through all these pages for a few questions i have. I'd like to know if the store and regular versions will be the same, or if the store version will be better. i just hope that both versions will be the same. |
The more I read this thread the more convinced I become that the recharge-based changes are absolutely terrible.
You wanna make the procs not always hit on powers like AS? Guess what, this is already the case. Missing an AS means that your next attack will not receive a crit, and this is currently the bane of the "top beneficiaries" of Stalker's Guile - Primaries with hard hitting T9's which "always" crit every time they're up. The problem is that when AS misses, you have to dynamically shift your attack chain so your hard hitter can crit again due to the 10 second rule, which requires far more attention than other attack chains and hurts DPS.
You think the procs are too good on slow-recharging powers? Wrong.
You wanna make the procs not benefit powers like Gambler's Cut and Neutrino Bolt so much? Nerf powersets which are far from dominating any DPS charts? I don't buy it for one second.
The nerfs make absolutely no sense, and the sooner they scrap them the better.
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Synapse, please consider the following problem.
Here are the effects of the PPM model in regards to PvP.
This should be a long post...
Here we are.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...U9GRXZ6MGdNX0E
EXPLANATION:
I've used Blaze as an example. It has a recharge of 10 seconds and an animation time of 1 second.
I've used 2 variables, recharge slotted in the power and global recharge.
I wanted to compare 0/0.25/0.5 up to reasonable numbers (100% recharge in power and 175% global recharge), but because the zone gives 16.2% recharge as a base, this was used instead of 0. When they were added so they could be DRed, they were labelled "Added".
Seeing as the standard PPM is currently 3, I've used that for the proc example.
I found out how fast Blaze would recharge in PvE and then in PvP (With DR).
I calculated the PPM chance (Same in PvP and PvE) based on the recharge slotted, ignoring global recharge (as PPM ignore them).
I then applied DR to the total of recharge the power has (Global and slotted) and compared that to the recharge the power has without DR.
The next part is complicated. If the power was to recharge in 5 seconds and had a 50% chance to proc, I would calculate that it would take 10 seconds before it could proc. This is labelled as "Time until proc fires". I do this in order to combine the recharge time with the PPM percent chance, allowing me to compare the two (Compare PvE/PvP effectiveness).
I then calculated the PvE advantage over PvP. I listed them as precents in the last column for the viewer's clarity.
CONCLUSIONS DRAWN:
If an individual lacked recharge in the power and globally, the base of 16.2% recharge would only make the procs 0.38% less effective. That is below 1% effectiveness. I could live with that if that were the norm. It is not.
It looks like the maximum amount of effectiveness PvE can gain over PvP is roughly 38% more effective. That's assuming 100% recharge in the power and 175% recharge globally, which is around the maximum for a high-end PvP build. 200+ rech builds only really exist in PvE.
The middle ground is around 20%, where as people won't be slotting for recharge in the power but will be slotting a high amount of global recharge so they can obtain an optimal chain with the highest percent chances for their procs.
MAXIMUM PROC RATE PROBLEM:
My biggest problem is that, if someone decides to slot 0 recharge in Blaze, they have a 55% chance for their proc to fire. If that someone walks into PvP, they have a 48% chance to fire. The maximum proc fire rate is lower in PvP because of the small 16.2% bonus we get. The most effective builds will purposely dodge +rech in their powers to get higher proc changes, but the PvP zone is specifically lowering their chance for procs to fire.
ARGUMENTS:
This is very important if you're skeptical.
The fact that procs will be more powerful in PvE could also be said about the percent procs today, because if I have a 33% chance for dmg proc in an attack, I can use it much more in PvE than PvP because DR doesn't exist and take away my recharge. The problem with this argument is optimal chains.
Flares/Fire Blast/Flares/Blaze in PvP with procs currently does the same amount of proc damage as it does in PvE. With these new procs, and the amount of recharge to get this chain being more with DR, it means an individual needs to slot more recharge to get this chain, meaning the chain has -less- proc damage than in PvE now.
With the above example and the spreadsheet, it's obvious that the PPM mechanics won't be able to fit with PvP.
SOLUTION:
Turn off DR for recharge in PvP zones.
That would speed up survivability chains, but make more optimal chains possible; making debuffs come up faster, but making buffs come up faster. Everything would even out, if not speed up PvP a bit more making it enjoyable for people.
Since PPM mechanics look at the recharge slotted and don't factor in DR at all, they cannot work with DR.
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Off-topic to the PPM question, but relevant to the suggested solution - don't most arena matches leave DR on because the base resistances granted for the PvP environment end up causing you to do far less damage overall, even with a better chain and unresisted procs firing more often?|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
SOLUTION:
Turn off DR for recharge in PvP zones. That would speed up survivability chains, but make more optimal chains possible; making debuffs come up faster, but making buffs come up faster. Everything would even out, if not speed up PvP a bit more making it enjoyable for people. Since PPM mechanics look at the recharge slotted and don't factor in DR at all, they cannot work with DR. |
The settings I've seen almost universally disabled were heal decay and travel suppression, and the answer when I asked about DR was that "it made it almost impossible to get a kill against someone who was halfway competent" because there wasn't a way to disable the base resistances. While I admittedly am not an expert and haven't done any calculations to figure out how the effects would change, the reasoning behind your suggestion of disabling DR seems to be the same, and I don't see how the suggestion puts you in a better place.
Edit: posted this in the thread in the PvP section discussing the upcoming changes - replies on this tangent should probably go there.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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The bigger problem now that it has been mentioned to me, is that there is no obvious way to factor global recharge out of slotted recharge in PvP. You can't just say that if we have S+G, we'll just take S and DR it and then factor that in. I suppose theoretically you can, but its not really mathematically kosher. I suspect you'd be fudging the numbers looking for something that generates reasonably acceptable results.|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
There is a HUGE problem for PvP.
The PPM does not factor DR. |
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| The only solution to this problem is to get rid of DR, so that PPM work in PvE and PvP exactly the same. |
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I'm not much of a PvPer these days so forgive me if this sounds obtuse; it really is a serious question: PvP is combat against other players who would be equally affected by the proc changes; this would leave the playing field balanced, right?
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Originally Posted by Sentry4
Synapse, please consider the following problem.
Here are the effects of the PPM model in regards to PvP. This should be a long post... |
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Yes and no; it will affect both sides of a match equally but if nobody gets any kills it turns it into a slightly more advanced version of tic-tac-toe where everything ends up 0-0 ties. Try watching a Stalker-vs-Stalker arena match sometime.|
Originally Posted by Greyhame
I'm not much of a PvPer these days so forgive me if this sounds obtuse; it really is a serious question: PvP is combat against other players who would be equally affected by the proc changes; this would leave the playing field balanced, right?
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In that case, it may be "balanced" but it's not competitive.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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If survival is that good in comparison to damage, enough so that just changing procs a bit will cause this, then something bigger needs to be changed and the problem isn't procs.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Yes and no; it will affect both sides of a match equally but if nobody gets any kills it turns it into a slightly more advanced version of tic-tac-toe where everything ends up 0-0 ties. Try watching a Stalker-vs-Stalker arena match sometime.
In that case, it may be "balanced" but it's not competitive. |
Edit: Although I can understand why people would object to it.
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That was my first thought concerning PPM and PvP. The amount of DR that S gets is dependent on G, but that's only decided -after- S and G have been combined, and even then I can't think of a reasonable way to make it equal with different global recharges. I suppose it may be possible to find out what percentage of the slotted rech makes up the total recharge, and use that same percentage of the DRed total to get a value, but then it would still preform much differently than it would in PvE. Not only that, but the more global recharge, the less the percent of +rech considered in the power and the higher proc chance. Like I said, I can't think of any reasonable way to get around it with DR.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The bigger problem now that it has been mentioned to me, is that there is no obvious way to factor global recharge out of slotted recharge in PvP. You can't just say that if we have S+G, we'll just take S and DR it and then factor that in. I suppose theoretically you can, but its not really mathematically kosher. I suspect you'd be fudging the numbers looking for something that generates reasonably acceptable results.
Good try, but unless the devs were already planning on nullifying DR, I don't think any change to the proc system is going to be the impetus for doing it. |
As for getting rid of DR, haha, I can try can't I?
I'll admit getting rid of DR completely would mean a lot of other balance issues they don't want to deal with (as Siolfir mentioned, Squishy Res).
At the same time, I don't see any issues with setting the recharge parameters to A=1 and B=0 so that recharge isn't affected by DR.
If recharge itself wasn't affected by DR, then we'd have the procs working as intended in all areas of the game equally, as well as an indirect damage buff to speed up PvP a little (Better attack chains).
That would also make it much more PvE friendly, as PvErs going into PvP would still have their optimal attack chain.
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I may have mentioned it before, but with +dmg being DRed, and the average resistance around 40%-50%, those chances for unresisted damage can equal up to 50% of your damage.|
Originally Posted by Greyhame
If survival is that good in comparison to damage, enough so that just changing procs a bit will cause this, then something bigger needs to be changed and the problem isn't procs.
Edit: Although I can understand why people would object to it. |
I know because the lead Fight Clubbers use Jab and Boxing with 3-4 procs in each, and half of their damage is just 'Chance for X unresisted damage'. In a normal ranged build, procs can add up to roughly 35% of someone's damage output.
Not to mention some rely heavily on procs while others don't. Psi/Em blasters don't rely on procs nearly as much as Rad/Em blasters.
I would agree that having "chance for" damage being a large portion isn't ideal for PvP, although in 5-10 minute matches, it almost always events out. Throwing around 500 attacks will do that.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
For everyone claiming the recharge thing is bad, has it been stated what the MINIMUM chance to proc will be?
Normal Procs have I believe a 20% chance of going off right now. (With the exception of those like Entropic Chaos which are horrifically low)
As long as the PPMs don't go below 20%, then I don't think there's a problem, as the overall performance increases. I do think the "based on altered recharge values rather than base recharge values" is a bit odd. I usually put my ATOs into powers with longer recharge times so I could guarantee at least ONE instance of the proc firing.
BUT, to play Devil's Advocate, it also makes sense that way. The trade-off for having a power you fire off more often is that the proc doesn't fire as much. It's a balance between people who slot for Recharge and those who don't.
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Originally Posted by Issen
For everyone claiming the recharge thing is bad, has it been stated what the MINIMUM chance to proc will be?
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I believe Synapse posted the current working idea for Min chance was 5%+1.2% per PPM rating.
So, on a current 20% chance proc, the minimum will be around 8.5-9%.
Several tier 1 attacks will be well below 20% chance in this case.
Example: Scorch at +100% enhanced recharge will be ~12.5% proc chance at 3PPM.
edit: Incinerate (also at +100% enhanced recharge), on the other hand, will go from up to ~32.5% at 3PPM. It's a give and take. The funny thing is, the most uber min-max chains will probably all improve fairly dramatically.
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I admittedly used an extremist example to illustrate the point - simply put if you're a solo Stalker facing a solo Stalker and either one of you ends up getting killed, you either mutually agreed to stand there and not use any escape tactics and powers or else the one that got killed is terminally stupid.|
Originally Posted by Greyhame
If survival is that good in comparison to damage, enough so that just changing procs a bit will cause this, then something bigger needs to be changed and the problem isn't procs.
Edit: Although I can understand why people would object to it. |
But IF the reduction in proc chances actually breaks past a threshold as Sentry4 predicts - and I'm not convinced it does, although it's something to watch out for - then it does run a risk of turning what's already mostly "calculated damage spam" into "damage spam and pray you get lucky or they lose connection".
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I would not have implemented DR on recharge had it been my decision to make, but conversely I would not reverse it by fiat now that its been around for as long as it has been.
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Originally Posted by Sentry4
At the same time, I don't see any issues with setting the recharge parameters to A=1 and B=0 so that recharge isn't affected by DR.
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What I see as the issue with DR and the PPM mechanic is this.|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
That was my first thought concerning PPM and PvP. The amount of DR that S gets is dependent on G, but that's only decided -after- S and G have been combined, and even then I can't think of a reasonable way to make it equal with different global recharges. I suppose it may be possible to find out what percentage of the slotted rech makes up the total recharge, and use that same percentage of the DRed total to get a value, but then it would still preform much differently than it would in PvE. Not only that, but the more global recharge, the less the percent of +rech considered in the power and the higher proc chance. Like I said, I can't think of any reasonable way to get around it with DR.
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With the PPM mechanic, slotted recharge is used to come up with a cycle time that can be used to normalize the percentage chance to proc. Global recharge that's added after that isn't supposed to effect the proc rate.
This doesn't really happen in PvP because of DR. Take my Necro for example. Gloom, in PvP, has 90% slotted recharge and 100% global recharge for 190% global recharge. The 90% should effect the proc rate, while the 100% shouldn't. However that gets DRed to 135.81%. The equation for calculating proc rate doesn't see this change, and still uses 90% which makes my effective global recharge (with regard to gloom) 45.81%. When I should be getting 100% recharge not counted, I'm only getting 45.81% not counted.
Possible solution:
Calculate the recharge, to be used in determining the cycle time, a bit differently. Basically, take the slotted recharge plus the global recharge (Modified by DR if applicable) minus Global recharge. With a floor of 0% recharge.
What does this do?
1. Players still get the benefit of not counting global recharge buffs for the proc rate. They could even get, with enough buffs, better proc rates than if they were in PvE.
2. Keeps the proc rate the exact same for PvE. This change doesn't effect PvE as there is no DR. The Global recharge buffs would be added to the recharge, then subtracted immediately, leaving the slotted recharge. This is a PvP change only.
3. An interesting side-effect is, with this change, more recharge may not improve the player being buffed's effective attack rate, as most player's recharge is fairly well self contained, but more recharge could buff the proc rate of procs in the power. This would help reduce the loss of need for recharge buffs found in set's like Kinetics and Time manipluation due to IO global recharge being a PvP standard.
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Shame on me for missing this thread now I have a few days worth of reading :/
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Well, with a few exceptions, T1 attacks would definitely NOT be where I'd put Procs into (With the exception of things like Jab on SS), but it makes sense.|
Originally Posted by Caulderone
I believe Synapse posted the current working idea for Min chance was 5%+1.2% per PPM rating.
So, on a current 20% chance proc, the minimum will be around 8.5-9%. Several tier 1 attacks will be well below 20% chance in this case. Example: Scorch at +100% enhanced recharge will be ~12.5% proc chance at 3PPM. edit: Incinerate (also at +100% enhanced recharge), on the other hand, will go from up to ~32.5% at 3PPM. It's a give and take. The funny thing is, the most uber min-max chains will probably all improve fairly dramatically. |
But overall, the odds of procs firing on the higher-tier attack chains improves (As demonstrated by Synapse). So why are we complaining? Besides, as someone who quite religiously uses Entropic Chaos on my Blasters/Corrs/VEATs I would love for those procs to not have such an abyssmally low firing rate. (I mean seriously, why is Mako's Bite 20% but Entropic Chaos heal just 10%?)
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That's....really interesting. I hadn't thought of that.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Possible solution: Calculate the recharge, to be used in determining the cycle time, a bit differently. Basically, take the slotted recharge plus the global recharge (Modified by DR if applicable) minus Global recharge. With a floor of 0% recharge. |
I was stuck on making the performance on-par with PvE. Making it completely equal and I couldn't see a way to do that.
This would make the performance of procs go up in PvP sometimes and down in others.
What you're saying is,
I have 50% recharge in the power, and 100% global. That equals 150% rech, DRed to 114% recharge. You'd then subtract the 100% global recharge to get 14% recharge in the power, and that's what PPM is based off of.
This would be -exactly- equal with a power with 14% rech and 100% global in PvE. The only deceptive part is the fact that I could use full sets (even with +rech in them) and get the benefit of those in PvE who had to specifically dodge them.
I'm sure it's possible, I just wouldn't know how to code that myself.
If a power had the minimum 16.2% recharge, and globally had 100% recharge. 116.2% would be DRed to 94% recharge. Subtracting 100% would make it hit the floor of 0%. Of course, this is the -exact same- chance it would have to fire in PvE, while recharging a bit more slowly because of DR. That would be close enough to balance for me, since the example above this was slightly more powerful.
Then again, it would be more math for the PvP community, and there's already too much of that.
I would like this change, understanding that procs would be better/worse depending on the situation in PvP than PvE.
I'm not sure the devs would go for this, but if they did, I'd be fine with it. PvPers would like if they could do more damage.
Ever since Incarnate came out, there's been more and more ties between fights when there shouldn't be. Interface's DoT as an offense can't counter Destiny/Burnout as a defense. This would be a really beneficial change.
At the same time, I would prefer Recharge not be DRed at all. It would be less work for them, and as well as making procs equal in PvE/PvP, it would help fix the problem of ties. It would also cause less confusion with PvE players keeping their attack chains in PvP.
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In part it depends on what you're using as a basis for comparison. Most things seem to be improving compared to flat-rate procs. Compared to PPM procs as currently implemented... that's more complicated. Some things are improving and some are holding steady, but single-target attacks in general are going to suffer, since it's usually not going to take a whole lot of recharge to drop the cycle time by more than the PPM increase makes up for.|
Originally Posted by Issen
But overall, the odds of procs firing on the higher-tier attack chains improves (As demonstrated by Synapse). So why are we complaining?
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Of course, that's pretty much one of the *points* of the whole exercise, so it's not all that surprising. Still, the recharge toxicity this can cause is a bit disturbing, even if I don't expect it to be relevant to any of my characters.
-Morgan.
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why wouldn't you have put your procs in a t1/t2? Those are the best places for flat rate procs
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Originally Posted by Issen
Well, with a few exceptions, T1 attacks would definitely NOT be where I'd put Procs into (With the exception of things like Jab on SS), but it makes sense.
But overall, the odds of procs firing on the higher-tier attack chains improves (As demonstrated by Synapse). So why are we complaining? Besides, as someone who quite religiously uses Entropic Chaos on my Blasters/Corrs/VEATs I would love for those procs to not have such an abyssmally low firing rate. (I mean seriously, why is Mako's Bite 20% but Entropic Chaos heal just 10%?) |
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Probably, because they're probably going to be the attacks that you use the most often. But if you tend to not use them (due to low enough DPA not making the proc rate worthwhile, a need to fill in gaps with controls, or whatever reason) then it's not the best spot.
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
why wouldn't you have put your procs in a t1/t2? Those are the best places for flat rate procs
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Looking at my characters who have flat-rate purple procs in their T1/T2 attacks, all of whom are PvE-spec, I am looking at ranging from very small improvement (things like 37% proc rate instead of 33%) to pretty significant improvement. (Broadsword/Hack is going to 53% despite having 95% recharge - but Hack is a bit odd for having an 8s recharge.)
Part of this is that my builds tend to explicitly exclude putting large levels of recharge in attacks with 4s recharge times or lower. This has nothing to do with the pending PPM changes - I've been building this way all along. The only exceptions have been if I wanted set bonuses and the set forces me to include a ton of recharge, and for some reason I couldn't put that recharge to better use in a longer-recharging power.
I will take a hit on most of my ATE procs, but as was pointed out...
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That said, I'm pretty sure I'll make out positively on the few ATE procs I've put in AoEs for a variety of reasons.
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Originally Posted by Morganite
Of course, that's pretty much one of the *points* of the whole exercise, so it's not all that surprising.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'm not sure if you posted that before reading all of Synapse's updates, but that won't count against you. It's only the slotted recharge component (including Alpha Spiritual, if applicable) that does reduce proc rates.
Thanks for the response.
The way DR works is that it takes your global recharge + your slotted recharge and DRs that. Diminishing returns only affects the recharge of a power -after- global and slotting has been added, but the PPM procs look at a portion of the recharge -before- they've been added. The PPM procs will have to check how much recharge is slotted in the power, the problem is that DR doesn't come into effect until after global recharge is added.
The DR'd value is factored using global recharge while the PPM percent is factored not using global recharge. This is the major flaw.
The recharge in the power, say 100%, will be DRed to 80%, or to 50%, or to 20% depending on the global recharge.
It's hard for me to explain, but I'm almost sure it's impossible. DR affects the total, and the PPM will reference the actual percent in the power. If it were to reference the DR total, it would be factoring in global recharge.
Also...
Yes, even the small bonus the zone gives you is DRed.
If you walk into a PvP zone and put your cursor over your brawl, you'll see 16.2% Acc, 16.2% Dmg and the dreaded 16.2% rech, even though it's unslotted (assuming it is).
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.