Enhancement Proc Changes


Agent White

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
Probably, because they're probably going to be the attacks that you use the most often. But if you tend to not use them (due to low enough DPA not making the proc rate worthwhile, a need to fill in gaps with controls, or whatever reason) then it's not the best spot.
Case in point, my DB/Regen does not have the T1 DB attack, and almost never uses the T2. My "smallest" attack that's part of my usual chain is actually the T3 attack, Ablating Strike. I normally only activate the T2 attack, Power Slice, when I've been so badly recharge debuffed that nothing else is available, or sometimes by accident.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
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Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

I believe they should leave the system as it cureently stands alone and unmolested. If you want the PPM enhancements then spend the points for them. If not and the percent works for your build then get those as drops or from the BM/Went. Either way the system isn't currently broken and trying to fix something that isn't broken just might break it.

I have to say that I never liked the PPM system to begin with and seeing that the entire proc sytem is going to this is a bad idea. I will admit that in some case it is an improvement over the current % system but those are few and far between.

This will also have a negative effect on those run Radiation, Kinetics or any other power that speeds up recharge of skills. In a league when you have some that want the recharge and others that don't and these are now AoE. Someone(s) aren't going to be happy with the outcome.

Clearly this has wide reaching implications and will have to be further examined when beta opens.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
For me in quite a few cases the procs are the primary reason for taking the power.

I don't mind procs being adjusted in a sensible way which is easy to calculate but this is totally the opposite of that. How are we supposed to know if a proc is a good purchase for a power now, too many new variables have been introduced into the formula.
I think that if you are taking a power based on the procs you can put in it then you are play the game wrong. You should be building around the powers you have and not the procs you want.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by caradoc001 View Post
This will also have a negative effect on those run Radiation, Kinetics or any other power that speeds up recharge of skills. In a league when you have some that want the recharge and others that don't and these are now AoE. Someone(s) aren't going to be happy with the outcome.

Clearly this has wide reaching implications and will have to be further examined when beta opens.

You seem to have missed a majority of the thread. Particularly, the part where Global Recharge isn't going to affect the PPMs at all.


 

Posted

After having read the first ten pages on this I have determined that if you are doing a build where you are counting on a proc (or multiple) as part of that build then you are doing it wrong. They are inherently unreliable and should NEVER be counted on in a build. They a a bonus, an "Oh that's nice" but to count on it happening just makes no since. Does that mean that I don't use them...nope, I use them a lot (every tank I have has the proc for psi damage in taunt)but I don't count on them to go off when I use them.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caulderone View Post
You seem to have missed a majority of the thread. Particularly, the part where Global Recharge isn't going to affect the PPMs at all.

It is very likely I did miss this as there are quite a few pages for this thread...I appreciate you informing me that this has been addressed


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by caradoc001 View Post
After having read the first ten pages on this I have determined that if you are doing a build where you are counting on a proc (or multiple) as part of that build then you are doing it wrong. They are inherently unreliable and should NEVER be counted on in a build. They a a bonus, an "Oh that's nice" but to count on it happening just makes no since. Does that mean that I don't use them...nope, I use them a lot (every tank I have has the proc for psi damage in taunt)but I don't count on them to go off when I use them.
I agree, you shouldn't ever look at "the numbers" or "what's best".

You should only pick the powers that fit in with your concept and RP style.

Everyone else is "doing it wrong" as Caradoc has politely and intelligently put. A bonus to a build should never be factored beforehand, or else you ruin the surprise for yourself.

We all might as well assume procs have a 0% chance to go off, since averages obviously don't exist. Am I right?


@Sentry4 @Sentry 4

PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.

 

Posted

Right, Sentry... because there is absolutely no middle ground between what he said and your overblown assessment at all. *rolls eyes*



 

Posted

A thought occurs:

This change seems to have a larger impact on those who slot entire Purple/ATO sets, rather than frankenslotting - Purple/ATO sets have some of the best bonuses in the game, but come at the cost of almost halving the rate of their set's proc. (Purple sets give 89.92% Recharge enhancement, and Catalyzed ATO sets hit the high end of ED, recharge wise).

I'm honestly not sure if this is even possible, but what if slotting like enhancements raised the proc rate by a certain amount (like .67 PPM for each purple enhancement) to offset the recharge in the set? As it stands, almost more efficient to throw the purple proc into a buzzsawed power and go with the pure damage/mez enhancement in the purple set power.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague View Post
A thought occurs:

This change seems to have a larger impact on those who slot entire Purple/ATO sets, rather than frankenslotting - Purple/ATO sets have some of the best bonuses in the game, but come at the cost of almost halving the rate of their set's proc. (Purple sets give 89.92% Recharge enhancement, and Catalyzed ATO sets hit the high end of ED, recharge wise).
That was my point exactly.

I'm not against this change for my own sake. I'm rich enough to work around it and capitalize on this scenario. Many of my friends (and easily many other members of this community) are not.


Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
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Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague View Post
A thought occurs:

This change seems to have a larger impact on those who slot entire Purple/ATO sets, rather than frankenslotting - Purple/ATO sets have some of the best bonuses in the game, but come at the cost of almost halving the rate of their set's proc. (Purple sets give 89.92% Recharge enhancement, and Catalyzed ATO sets hit the high end of ED, recharge wise).
I understand your point, which is that if you slot the whole ATE set, or even just five pieces, you have no choice but to get high-slotted recharge. Heck, the procs include recharge slotting in the ATE sets.

However, consider that it's possible that this is intended. ATE and SBE purple procs have pretty high PPM values, ranging from 4-5 currently (which will become 5-6.25 in I24). This already serves to offset this effect somewhat.

As far as people who have slotted IO purple procs (non-SBE ones), they're mostly going to see a buff (in PvE). Assuming you slot five purple pieces and omit the <effect>/recharge (which is highly typical for everything but Coercive Persuasion), you get 59% recharge enhancement. Using the presumed 5.625 PPM for a purple proc in I24, to hit 33% proc rate or higher, your cycle time needs to be 3.52s. Assuming a 1.2s activation time, that means your base recharge time needs to be around 3.6 seconds. Very few powers fall under that - most T1 powers have 4s recharge times.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Assuming you slot five purple pieces and omit the <effect>/recharge (which is highly typical for everything but Coercive Persuasion).
I've never heard of such slotting - I always omit the pure enhancement.


Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

 

Posted

*sigh*. More Nerfs . PPMs are cool now honestly because min/maxers can max them. With the cap being lowered to 90%, rech being raised(likely a tiny bit), and ppm's being raised across the board to be on-par with the old procs this seems like a royal waste of time. People like the PPM because they are better, gimping them and spending tons of time replacing all the old system with the same level of meh the old system had already is just...meh. lol. If PPM is being nerfed to be equal to the other I see no need for change. All this says to me is the market ones people paid for because they were better are being ruined.

It's nice to have 1 or 2 things in the game that are above-par, that you can enjoy using. An example of the last cool thing to come out and be ruined later were SSAs .



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague View Post
I've never heard of such slotting - I always omit the pure enhancement.
Doing so leaves you at around 7% less enhancement of that aspect. That may seem negligible, but on attacks with 4-second or lower recharge times, the recharge time enhancement is largely pointless. On a 4-second recharge, it shaves off 0.13 seconds of recharge time. Given how much of such short-recharge powers' cycle time is dominated by the activation time, and the nature of DPA's impact on chain DPS, you almost certainly do better with the pure enhancement in attacks.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

How does a PPM work in a damage aura then?

IE I have a power with Recharge modification is at 9 second recharge versus a damage aura.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimus View Post
How does a PPM work in a damage aura then?

IE I have a power with Recharge modification is at 9 second recharge versus a damage aura.
PPMS treat autos and damage auras as if the had a 10 second recharge between ticks


 

Posted

Does that include caring about slotted recharge?


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Does that include caring about slotted recharge?
Sorry I answered with current PPM procs in mind, my bad


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetatron View Post
Sorry I answered with current PPM procs in mind, my bad
That turns into a question for Synapse then. The I24 system certainly shouldn't count slotted recharge against proc chance in toggles. That wouldn't make any sense. Only activation rate should matter in toggles (or passives).


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Doing so leaves you at around 7% less enhancement of that aspect. That may seem negligible, but on attacks with 4-second or lower recharge times, the recharge time enhancement is largely pointless. On a 4-second recharge, it shaves off 0.13 seconds of recharge time. Given how much of such short-recharge powers' cycle time is dominated by the activation time, and the nature of DPA's impact on chain DPS, you almost certainly do better with the pure enhancement in attacks.
...I don't slot Purple sets into 4 second recharge powers - that completely defeats the point of the massive recharge enhancement values.

Generally, I slot Purple sets into whatever power has the highest DPA (In my Dominator's case, his Apocalypse set went into lift).


Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague View Post
...I don't slot Purple sets into 4 second recharge powers - that completely defeats the point of the massive recharge enhancement values.

Generally, I slot Purple sets into whatever power has the highest DPA (In my Dominator's case, his Apocalypse set went into lift).
The context of the part of my post which spurred this exchange was whether or not PPM purples in I24 will be a nerf or buff compared to current "flat rate" ones. The crossover point for that is going to be somewhere just below 4s base recharge time. The powers with 4-6s recharge times are the ones most people are going to currently have flat-rate purple procs slotted in. Because of that, I was talking about slotting that does make sense if you are slotting purples in a 4s-6s recharge power, to show that so long as you aren't doing something silly with how much recharge you put in them, they will come out ahead in proc activation chance in I24.

I currently find it common to slot purples in even fast cycling powers when I am looking for other six-slot set bonuses than recharge. If I split the purple set by putting the proc in one power and the other five pieces somewhere else, I lose two of the six-slot bonuses I could have from some other set. So I want to put the purples all in one power, which sets up a conflict between where it is best to put the proc and where I would like the high recharge slotting of purples. In such cases, I will usually go for proc DPS, and put five purples, including the proc, in the power where I get the best DPS improvement out of the proc. Since this is often a low-cycle time power (the best places to put flat-rate procs), I usually omit the <effect>/recharge.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Not sure why nerfing something that I don't see players complaining about is really constructive.

Probably alot of things that need to be fixed other than something that doesn't appear to be a problem.


 

Posted

If you really feel that you didn't get what you paid for. Then call up your Visa or Master Card tell them you didn't get the item and it is in dispute. Let them hold back payment. Enough complaints happen who knows Visa / Mastercard might cut off NCSoft.

It is possible that Visa / Mastercard would refund your payment to you because you are their customer.

-----

Now about this numbers thing and how proc's work. I have never tried to figure out min max on builds. But since I now know that store bought IO's get nerfed. I won't be buying any either.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPBunny View Post
If you really feel that you didn't get what you paid for. Then call up your Visa or Master Card tell them you didn't get the item and it is in dispute. Let them hold back payment. Enough complaints happen who knows Visa / Mastercard might cut off NCSoft.

It is possible that Visa / Mastercard would refund your payment to you because you are their customer.
I would not use this advice unless you are willing to have your account banned.


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Posted

Across the board buffs for me woot! o.O