Quote:
I agree with you. I did the same thing. The voices on this board though are keen to point out that nothing being done is illegal and that NCSoft has no liability for these changes given terms in the EULA and items such as "All Sales Are Final." Fair enough. |
Originally Posted by Karu
While I understand the need to tweak and fix things that are broken or out of whack, these particular changes in planning made me angry enough to finally register on the forum, just to post this.
I've bought PP for the exact purpose of getting market procs, BECAUSE they were guaranteed to fire on slow recharge heavy hitters. I wouldn't pay for something I can easily craft in game. Now you're going to change procs in a way that makes bought and crafted ones identical, making my purchases worthless... and making recharge bonuses less of a bonus and more of a penalty in the process. This is wrong. I've paid for products that you're going to radically alter, for the worse. I don't want 90% chance (or who knows how much less), I PAID for 100% chance. The current way works fine. Crafted procs are good for fast recharge powers, store-bought ones are an attractive option for slow recharge ones. The slow stuff is still, y'know, slow, so it's not like the advantage is earth-shattering. Don't try to fix what isn't broken. Re-think this, please. It's a bad idea, all in all. |
But it is still bad policy / a bad way to treat consumers. I've bought hundreds of dollars of items from the Store, including procs that I would never have bought if they didn't have the SBE mechanic (hello Mako's Bite Lethal!). A nice customer relations decision would be to credit back some Paragon Points to the accounts of everyone who bought these type of SBE procs. It really costs nothing to NCSoft, and would ease the pain just a bit.
Also, the "new formula" that is punishing builds using +recharge Alpha Slots is whack. Alpha recharge buffs should be excluded like Global recharge buffs and hasten.
Quote:
Feel the same way. Probably lost $20-30 worth of SBE procs.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I agree with you. I did the same thing. The voices on this board though are keen to point out that nothing being done is illegal and that NCSoft has no liability for these changes given terms in the EULA and items such as "All Sales Are Final." Fair enough.
But it is still bad policy / a bad way to treat consumers. I've bought hundreds of dollars of items from the Store, including procs that I would never have bought if they didn't have the SBE mechanic (hello Mako's Bite Lethal!). A nice customer relations decision would be to credit back some Paragon Points to the accounts of everyone who bought these type of SBE procs. It really costs nothing to NCSoft, and would ease the pain just a bit. Also, the "new formula" that is punishing builds using +recharge Alpha Slots is whack. Alpha recharge buffs should be excluded like Global recharge buffs and hasten. |
You can forget about me ever buying anything from the PM again. All the devs seem to care about anymore is screwing as much money as they can from players.
"Buy this look how awesome it is!"
*Nerf*
"All sales are final."
Quote:
I think people like our foolish selves who invested in PPs and PM must be pretty small, because the second people started complaining about "pay to win" in this highly, highly competitive, mostly pvp game, the performance differences afforded by the ppm system became "unintended" or atleast that was the rhetoric that applied|
Originally Posted by Karu
While I understand the need to tweak and fix things that are broken or out of whack, these particular changes in planning made me angry enough to finally register on the forum, just to post this.
I've bought PP for the exact purpose of getting market procs, BECAUSE they were guaranteed to fire on slow recharge heavy hitters. I wouldn't pay for something I can easily craft in game. Now you're going to change procs in a way that makes bought and crafted ones identical, making my purchases worthless... and making recharge bonuses less of a bonus and more of a penalty in the process. This is wrong. I've paid for products that you're going to radically alter, for the worse. I don't want 90% chance (or who knows how much less), I PAID for 100% chance. The current way works fine. Crafted procs are good for fast recharge powers, store-bought ones are an attractive option for slow recharge ones. The slow stuff is still, y'know, slow, so it's not like the advantage is earth-shattering. Don't try to fix what isn't broken. Re-think this, please. It's a bad idea, all in all. |
1 famous Kurt Vonnegut Jr. short story: Harrison Bergeron
I had a very strong feeling perf shifter wasn't going to be the last of this bait and switch mentality and now a all of my sbe purchases are invalidated
-The Damage procs are no longer worthwhile purchases
-The chance for hold procs are now going to be worthless to me in all the app holds I slotted them into making the holds barely worthwhile
-The 1ppm build up procs I bought? hosed
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
"All sales are final."
|
Quote:
They don't like how it's working. They don't need a better reason than that. It's their game.|
Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
Explain clearly why the old style is abusable. WHY is this change necessary.
|
Do I think they should spend more time thinking about that sort of thing and/or testing it before they put items out for sale? Absolutely. But they aren't required to have reasons we like for changing things. If they change things too much after they've sold them, they just convince lots of people it's dangerous to buy things.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'm kind of fond of the suggestion that this observe up to around 100% recharge (from all sources) and then stop counting it against the proc rate. This seems like a decent approximation of the enhancement range most builds would see from enhancement (thanks to ED), avoids the somewhat degenerate build situation of people using only global recharge to bring powers back faster, and is probably somewhat gentler to people using Spiritual Alpha.
It is somewhat flawed, still, though. If you don't have a lot of recharge already, external buffs will still change your proc rates, up until you reach the ~100% cutoff.
Edit: No, the more I think about that part, the more I prefer the enhancement-only gig. People can control that on their own. Spiritual Alpha's interaction with this still kind of stinks in that regard, but I suspect there's nothing else that could be done.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I disagree. If it is something that a legitimate abuse they are trying to curb, then yeah. I would fully support a resolution to the mess we are in.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
They don't like how it's working. They don't need a better reason than that. It's their game.
|
<b>But if there is no legitimate abuse they are trying to curb that they can announce to the population</b>, then I will NEVER buy another SBE again. EVER. In fact it leaves such a sour taste in my mouth that I think the ONLY thing I would buy ever again would be powersets. MAYBE.
This is beyond rediculous. I expect such treatment from disgruntled McDonalds employees. Not from a company I had respect for for a long time.
-------
Hew in drag baby
"Abuse" is not required. "Abuse" implies that someone is doing something like power-leveling with procs, or getting too many purple drops/hour. There is no "abuse" of those sorts involved. They have decided that SBE procs are too much better than standard IO ones.
On the one hand, I don't blame you for being annoyed, but on the other, you should never have bought anything from any MMO that you had no expectation could change, including being "nerfed". Only you can decide what that guiding principle means for any future purposes.
I don't approve of how they are handling thing like this. I do think another thread is a better place for it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Z said earlier in the thread that concerns of this nature should be PM'd to him so that he can direct them to the proper people.|
Originally Posted by Nuclear Girl
Sorry, while i think you are right that this thread is about the technical aspect, where is a clear statement how/if there will be refunds for already bought SBEs (aside from the go talk with your CS)?
I mean, imo it reads like: Z.: Boss, they are moaning about our newest tactics. B.: Don't give them a chance to express their "whine" /Em Procwrath B. hands Z. a 1000ppm proc on disintegrating unwanted comments Although it is a technical, balancing issue, it also effects peoples reaction on the Paragon store. You know, the store that gives the company money? So, for god sake, communicate. Put a description on the SBE already in store: The function of the Procs will be altered soon. Make something that the community won't see the "i go" as ultima ratio.. Just communicate... Don't put restrictions on it. |
This thread is for the mechanical/balance aspect and is being monitored mainly by Synapse, who has nothing to do with the Paragon Store.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
Quote:
I think its a good suggestion I have tried GMs, I tried Posi, and at least 2 other staff members I'll try BP thx again
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I agree with you all completely on the customer relations aspect of this but synapse is likely the wrong guy to bother about it. You probably want to PM black pebble or whoever the business customer relation types are, give them a list of your purchases and let them know just how bad this looks from your perspective.
|
So Synapse, out of all those saying "Yes. I like your changes. Make the changes. Change what was bought because they were told WAI." how many of them actually bought the SBEs?
I'm curious to that one.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I bought ONE Lockdown proc when it was put on sale - it had a 100% proc rate in Shadow Storm, which made it worthwhile for my stalker to buy it. I'm not necessarily angry that it's now capped at 90%, but rather there was NO reason for me to buy it since I already had a level 30 proc in the power which I overwrote for the SBE version.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
So Synapse, out of all those saying "Yes. I like your changes. Make the changes. Change what was bought because they were told WAI." how many of them actually bought the SBEs?
I'm curious to that one. |
EDIT:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
I think people like our foolish selves who invested in PPs and PM must be pretty small, because the second people started complaining about "pay to win" in this highly, highly competitive, mostly pvp game, the performance differences afforded by the ppm system became "unintended" or atleast that was the rhetoric that applied
|
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
|
Quote:
Is there any reason to think it's *not* in most cases? There are a few self-buff procs that are limited to firing once per activation, and in those cases maybe how they act in AoEs could use looking at. But otherwise, the tests I've run using SBE procs in AoEs show they have a chance to fire on every target, and I see no reason to think that's changing.|
Originally Posted by firespray
Well, synapse did point out that in many cases this would end up being a buff to the proc rate from what we have now. I'm still just now sure whether the numbers for the % chance to trigger for AoE PPM procs is per target or not. I'm hoping it is, because otherwise the numbers we were shown mean a pretty significant nerf to proc chances in AoE powers when fighting a lot of enemies. And personally I'd rather see a buff than a nerf any day.
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Synapse, have you got any idea what this is going to do with chaining powers? Because right now, they're kind of weird. In Jolting Chain the first hit seems to have a proc chance about what it would on a single-target power, and then the jumps have a much lower rate. I've seen something similar on Chain Induction, but haven't tested Synaptic Overload. (Although I think now I'm going to, because if something bizarre is going to happen with the only available version of the only proc it's a good idea to put in it, that's cause for concern.)
-Morgan.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Synapse
The minimum proc floor will be something like 5% +1.2% per PPM. However, like I said very few powers will actually hit that. Also...
Regarding Slash and Focus: Slash with Hecatomb: Base Recharge: 4.8 Area Factor: 1 IO Proc Chance: 33% Attuned PPMs: 4.5 (46%) New PPMs: 5.625 @0% Recharge: 57.5% @33% Recharge: 46.3% @66% Recharge: 36.6% @100% Recharge: 35% Focus with Apocalypse: Base Recharge: 6.4 Area Factor: 1 IO Proc Chance: 33% Attuned PPMs: 4.5 (56.8%) @0% Recharge: 71% @33% Recharge: 56.1% @66% Recharge: 47.1% @100% Recharge: 41% So, you're going to see an increase in performance against the current IO version of Hecatomb and Apocalypse in this particular instance. There are quite a few instances where your powers will have a greater chance to proc than they currently do with IOs. So, some people are calling this a "nerf" but in actuality there's also a good amount of buffing going on here too. Regards, Synapse |
Okay, currently I'm rocking 2 (non SBIO) Eradication 20% procs in my two AoE attacks (Spring Attack and Foot Stomp).
Just on IOs alone I have 72% recharge in both these powers.
With my Spiritual Radial T4, I have 104%.
I have non-perma Hasten and a single 7.5% global recharge bonus from my Taunt set.
So, with Hasten up what do my chances of proc'ing look like? Floored?
Would I just be better off replacing the proc with a Dam/Rech for a 7% "always on" damage boost and calling it a day?
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Synapse has no reason and probably no way to know that.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
So Synapse, out of all those saying "Yes. I like your changes. Make the changes. Change what was bought because they were told WAI." how many of them actually bought the SBEs?
|
I did not buy any SBEs, proc or otherwise. However, I do have ATE sets on most of my 50s, including the procs. This change will noticeably reduce how well those perform. I did not pay (extra) money for them, on purpose. I assumed what has happened was possible.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
As an aside PPMs don't strictly only affect store bought enhancements, they also affect Archetype Origin Enhancements as well. PPMs were intended to be used by Attuned enhancements not specifically SBEs.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you actually read that thread, Arbiter Hawk was being asked how the PPM procs specifically worked at that time, he wasn't commenting on their design intent. In fact one poster explicitly asked him to state how they worked directly and not explain side issues beyond that.
In fact, Arbiter Hawk all but said he wasn't specifically involved in their design in the same thread, and thus his comments should only be taken to describe the procs, and not state their design intent: He knew the basic idea, but not the precise details of the system or its design or implementation at the time he was speaking and admitted so. Under those circumstances, his opinion is no more relevant to the design intent of the procs than mine is. |
Quote:
If you didn't see a mile away that IO procs were going to be converted to PPMs sooner or later, that's probably your own fault.
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
I bought ONE Lockdown proc when it was put on sale - it had a 100% proc rate in Shadow Storm, which made it worthwhile for my stalker to buy it. I'm not necessarily angry that it's now capped at 90%, but rather there was NO reason for me to buy it since I already had a level 30 proc in the power which I overwrote for the SBE version.
|
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Quote:
Something more like not even close, I think. Under the current proposal Hasten and other global recharge bonuses don't affect proc rate. For Spring Attack it's something like this...|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
So, with Hasten up what do my chances of proc'ing look like? Floored?
|
(43.79 + 1.5) * 3 * 1.25 / 60 / (1 + .75 * .15 * 15) = 1.05, or 100%... but then it gets capped at 90%. Long recharge is still long.
Oh, and that's actually wrong, since I forgot to turn off your hasten. But since the proc rate can't get higher than 100% (or 90%), it doesn't matter.
Foot Stomp? (9.8 + 2.1) * 3 * 1.25 / 60 / (1 + .75 * .15 * 15) = .27, or 27%. A noticeable improvement over the flat rate proc, but a slight downgrade from the current SBE proc rate of 34%. Not even close to floored.
-Morgan.
Quote:
It sounds like my main is set up like yours (SP-Smite-SP-Shadow Maul). I, too have a Hecatomb proc in Shadow Punch, and this is going to affect me the same way.|
Originally Posted by Caulderone
I understand the oddness you perceive. I built the character into it's theme, and then eked every ounce of performance I could out of it. So, the theme came first, then I maxed it out.
It still falls well short, damage-wise, of what the powerset is capable of. And, now, it will fall further or abandon theme. |
When they increased the activation time on Shadow Punch, it had a very large impact on my DPS. When they improved Midnight Grasp, it did nothing for me, because I don't have it for the same reason you don't.
It's a price we're paying for sticking to concept instead of min-maxing. I wish individual powers were balanced better within the set, so that we had more freedom to choose powers based on aesthetics without worrying about performance. I don't recall the exact reason for the change in animation time to Shadow Punch, but if it had to do with abusing procs, maybe they'll revisit it now that procs won't be able to be abused in that manner.
I still support this set of changes to procs because I think it's more balanced, overall, but it would be nice if they'd examine some of the fast recharging powers and figure out how they can still be valuable in a game where good attack chains don't use them at all. Lowering their animation time would be a good option, where possible.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
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Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Quote:
Yes, proc chance on AoEs is per target.
|
Originally Posted by firespray
Well, synapse did point out that in many cases this would end up being a buff to the proc rate from what we have now. I'm still just now sure whether the numbers for the % chance to trigger for AoE PPM procs is per target or not. I'm hoping it is, because otherwise the numbers we were shown mean a pretty significant nerf to proc chances in AoE powers when fighting a lot of enemies. And personally I'd rather see a buff than a nerf any day.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Okay, currently I'm rocking 2 (non SBIO) Eradication 20% procs in my two AoE attacks (Spring Attack and Foot Stomp).
Just on IOs alone I have 72% recharge in both these powers. With my Spiritual Radial T4, I have 104%. I have non-perma Hasten and a single 7.5% global recharge bonus from my Taunt set. So, with Hasten up what do my chances of proc'ing look like? Floored? Would I just be better off replacing the proc with a Dam/Rech for a 7% "always on" damage boost and calling it a day? |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Morganite
Something more like not even close, I think. Under the current proposal Hasten and other global recharge bonuses don't affect proc rate. For Spring Attack it's something like this...
(43.79 + 1.5) * 3 * 1.25 / 60 / (1 + .75 * .15 * 15) = 1.05, or 100%... but then it gets capped at 90%. Long recharge is still long. Oh, and that's actually wrong, since I forgot to turn off your hasten. But since the proc rate can't get higher than 100% (or 90%), it doesn't matter. Foot Stomp? (9.8 + 2.1) * 3 * 1.25 / 60 / (1 + .75 * .15 * 15) = .27, or 27%. A noticeable improvement over the flat rate proc, but a slight downgrade from the current SBE proc rate of 34%. Not even close to floored. -Morgan. |
While it's easy enough to find them in the Dev Digest, perhaps you could edit your original post to include a link to the second proposal Synapse? That would help prevent some of the confusion.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
Quote:
I certainly didn't. I wasn't gonna spend real money on something that was obviously gonna get nerfed so it was in line with the standard IOs.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
So Synapse, out of all those saying "Yes. I like your changes. Make the changes. Change what was bought because they were told WAI." how many of them actually bought the SBEs?
I'm curious to that one. |
Quote:
I wasn't sure whether it would be that or dropping the PPM mechanic, but I suppose you're right, it is a better fix.
|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
If you didn't see a mile away that IO procs were going to be converted to PPMs sooner or later, that's probably your own fault.
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Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Liquid
It sounds like my main is set up like yours (SP-Smite-SP-Shadow Maul). I, too have a Hecatomb proc in Shadow Punch, and this is going to affect me the same way.
When they increased the activation time on Shadow Punch, it had a very large impact on my DPS. When they improved Midnight Grasp, it did nothing for me, because I don't have it for the same reason you don't. It's a price we're paying for sticking to concept instead of min-maxing. I wish individual powers were balanced better within the set, so that we had more freedom to choose powers based on aesthetics without worrying about performance. I don't recall the exact reason for the change in animation time to Shadow Punch, but if it had to do with abusing procs, maybe they'll revisit it now that procs won't be able to be abused in that manner. I still support this set of changes to procs because I think it's more balanced, overall, but it would be nice if they'd examine some of the fast recharging powers and figure out how they can still be valuable in a game where good attack chains don't use them at all. Lowering their animation time would be a good option, where possible. |
After reflecting on this change overnight, my one and only real complaint is how it FURTHER marginalizes pretty much every Tier 1 attack in the game.
I just don't understand it. Min-Max already avoids the Tier 1 attacks. It's not like Purple procs make these into Uber DPA or anything.
It just doesn't compute for me.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Morganite
Something more like not even close, I think. Under the current proposal Hasten and other global recharge bonuses don't affect proc rate. For Spring Attack it's something like this...
(43.79 + 1.5) * 3 * 1.25 / 60 / (1 + .75 * .15 * 15) = 1.05, or 100%... but then it gets capped at 90%. Long recharge is still long. Oh, and that's actually wrong, since I forgot to turn off your hasten. But since the proc rate can't get higher than 100% (or 90%), it doesn't matter. Foot Stomp? (9.8 + 2.1) * 3 * 1.25 / 60 / (1 + .75 * .15 * 15) = .27, or 27%. A noticeable improvement over the flat rate proc, but a slight downgrade from the current SBE proc rate of 34%. Not even close to floored. -Morgan. |
Thanks for doing the math for me Morgan. The ST formula is fairly straightforward but I was having trouble wrapping my head around the AoE one.
Okay. I don't feel too bad about that. And, as I never touched the SBEs.
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100% is pretty much the most you can slot into a power (barring Alpha). 100% recharge drops a 90s power to 45s. 45s is 75% of 60s, so BU with 100% recharge has a 75% proc rate (assuming 1 PPM).
I don't have a computer with Mids' at hand right now, but I'm pretty sure that 6-slotting 50+5 common IOs and a T4 Alpha is going to get somewhere around 140% recharge. That gives a 40s recharge. 40s is 66.7% of 60s, so a 1 PPM proc in BU should never drop below 66.7%