Max_zero
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Depends on how well built characters are and what you are using them for.Originally Posted by Slazenger
Yeah have seen all that stuff many times before, just wondered what was so great about soft capping def, I pretty much rely on getting a medium amount of def, regen and resistance and works far better than most soft capped def alts.
With the new incarnate content I seem to be well over performing soft capped def players.
My Incarnate softcapped characters basically run around in itrials doing their own thing.
If you sacrifice everything for +def then yeah it might be an issue but the best builds get the +def while keeping the offence. -
Quote:Actually knockback and knockdown work fine. Freezing Rain is one of the best powers on the escapes on BAF.Originally Posted by Volt_Angel
Like someone else said... no holding on them, no knock back no anything but damage. Your job as a controller is to get as much damage in period. If you can de-buff them or buff teammates you can do that as well. I play on ALL my different controllers and I just unleash all kinds of chaos till my blue bar is no more.
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Stupid damn forum logged me out lost my whole damn post FFS. Lets try again will save my post before posting it this time.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.959
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Plant Control
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strangler -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Slow%(7), UbrkCons-Dam%(29), Apoc-Dmg(33), Apoc-Dam%(33)
Level 1: Gale -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Roots -- SWotController-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SWotController-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(3), SWotController-EndRdx/Rchg(3), SWotController-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(5), SWotController-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SWotController-Rchg/Dmg%(7)
Level 4: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 8: Seeds of Confusion -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(9), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(9), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(11), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(11), CoPers-Conf%(13)
Level 10: Steamy Mist -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(13), RedFtn-Def(15), RedFtn-EndRdx(15), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(19), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Kick -- ExStrk-Dmg/KB(A), ExStrk-Acc/KB(27), ExStrk-Dam%(33)
Level 16: Freezing Rain -- Posi-Dam%(A), Achilles-ResDeb%(17), LdyGrey-%Dam(19), LdyGrey-Rchg/EndRdx(23), JavVoll-Dam/End/Rech(25), JavVoll-Dam%(40)
Level 18: Tough -- GA-3defTpProc(A)
Level 20: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(21), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(21), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), RedFtn-Def(46), RedFtn-EndRdx(46)
Level 22: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(A), Zephyr-ResKB(31)
Level 24: Vines -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(45)
Level 26: Carrion Creepers -- Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), JavVoll-Dam%(27), Posi-Dam%(43), ImpSwft-Dam%(45)
Level 28: Entangle -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(31), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Afterburner -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Fly Trap -- ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(34), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(34), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(37), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(40)
Level 35: Tornado -- ShldBrk-%Dam(A), ExStrk-Dam%(36), LdyGrey-%Dam(36), S'bndAl-Build%(36), S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 38: Lightning Storm -- Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), LkGmblr-Rchg+(43)
Level 44: Mind Over Body -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- Ragnrk-Dmg(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Knock%(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 49: Super Speed -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(A), Zephyr-ResKB(50)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Panac-Heal/+End(29), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(37)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-End%(45)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Portal Jockey
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I have editing my Destiny power to only show the 2 min buff so I get an accurate idea of base power. Turn on accolades too.
Basically my build works around stacking multiple proc heavy Tornadoes, Creepers and Rains to kill enemies. Throw in Fly traps and Lightning Storms for good measure.
The ST and AoE rotations are not brilliant but in many ways they are just secondary. Anything sub AV will pretty much be wasted in a few seconds. I kill most spawns without using any ST or my two regular AoEs. Even on itrials you have huge amounts of overkill.
About the only thing that should beat you ST wise are Huntsman stacking resists with pets and running Core Hybrid assault. Then again they are the best in the game at it so no shame there.
-Regen is not a problem is -regen is heavily overrated as is. You only need it if you DPS sucks.
Defence wise you should be fine (at least by troller standards) with great CC, ranged def incarnate softcap, mez protection (full range), Kb prot (always nice even with hover) and decent resists.
I run with endurance reduction in some powers simply because even with 5+ end regen a second this build can still run dry. My Plant/Cold runs has to run a double stack of Heat Loss (total of 8+ end a second) to not run dry but that has zero end reduction. The primary focus of my power builds is to maximise throughput (ie minimise bottlenecks).
Some nice things about this build are:
1) Can max stack Interface debuffs even when solo
2) Also has access to Core Hybrid assault (since it has several pets) shenanigans
3) The i24 proc changes won't have much effect since pseudo pets themselves (Rain, Creepers and Tornado) are immune to recharge.
Took a lot of time (and inf) to get this build to this point. Experimented with multiple tricked out Brutes, MMs and several other trollers before I finally settled on Plant/Storm. -
Quote:The only troller powers that will be hit hard by the proc changes are the AoE Immos. You can still make uber proc builds. For me the best Primary for proc abuse is Plant and for secondaries /StormOriginally Posted by King_Moloch
Thanks for the advice and especially for the build. I'm not really used to working with controllers, and I'm hearing things about how the devs are going break procs and disallow useful builds that rely on them or something. Hopefully that's not going to happen for a while, because this build looks like a lot of fun.
What do I want to solo?
Itrials.
Well not really. But everything else I can manage to. GMs, AVs, etc etc. I can do that with most of my toons, but they largely focus on an entirely different playstyle. My experience and understanding of control toons is obviously lacking, and I wanted to experience as much of it as I could.
The build above has that idiotic robot spider in it, and I hate those things with the intensity of a thousand stars, so I'm going to see if I can find a way to get the same benefit with a different pick. To me the arachnos pets are fail, fail, fail. I hate being forced into an Arachnos pigeonhole if I want a pet.
If you want pets try /Storm. You have psuedo pets but don't have to worry about them dying or agroing stuff.
I have a high end (and I mean high end) Plant/Storm build if you want an idea of the kinda of firepower I am talking about: Perma Hasten, Procced up ST/AoEs, Mez protection, Incarnate ranged softcap, etc. -
Quote:Feel the same way. Probably lost $20-30 worth of SBE procs.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I agree with you. I did the same thing. The voices on this board though are keen to point out that nothing being done is illegal and that NCSoft has no liability for these changes given terms in the EULA and items such as "All Sales Are Final." Fair enough.
But it is still bad policy / a bad way to treat consumers. I've bought hundreds of dollars of items from the Store, including procs that I would never have bought if they didn't have the SBE mechanic (hello Mako's Bite Lethal!). A nice customer relations decision would be to credit back some Paragon Points to the accounts of everyone who bought these type of SBE procs. It really costs nothing to NCSoft, and would ease the pain just a bit.
Also, the "new formula" that is punishing builds using +recharge Alpha Slots is whack. Alpha recharge buffs should be excluded like Global recharge buffs and hasten.
You can forget about me ever buying anything from the PM again. All the devs seem to care about anymore is screwing as much money as they can from players.
"Buy this look how awesome it is!"
*Nerf*
"All sales are final." -
Quote:If you are after power, do it. Burst is one of he best attacks in the game for anim/damage. Single shot and Bayonet are pretty good as well.Originally Posted by kinaki
I've been leveling a crab, currently at 38, and was thinking of respec'ing back into the gun attacks (except suppression). I find both chaingun and longfang woefully slow compared to their gun counterparts and was wondering if people have any experience with this same decision? Mainly, I'm worried about the redraw with suppression and patron attack.
Bayonet->Shot->Burst->Shot is a very good single target rotation. -
Hasten
Hasten
Hasten!
My main is a /Cold based Troller (theme and power wise)...with perma Hasten.
Couldn't think of anything more annoying in CoH.
*Hasten activation sound goes off in the background*
...and a challenger has appeared! -
For the longest time I took the /Psi mastery for IW but recently specced out of it for /Ice. The difference has been dramatic, both single target and AoE. While the odd mez gets though the overall damage increase makes the character much more effective.
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Quote:I think people really need to look more at the villian epic pools. Most of the Hero pools tend to be more defensive/support based, which are things Trollers tend to have already. The Leviathan in particular is brutal. Not only is the pet quick the AoE powerhouse (has 3 AoEs) but Water Spout and Bile Spray are both really good AoEs as well. If you have a high recharge build (including Alpha slot) you can get Water Spout into the 40 second recharge range. Two perma pets and Water Spout make for some pretty damn nice damage (both AoE and single target).Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
My general feeling is that nearly all characters with major endurance issues will be better off skipping the Cardiac, going Spiritual, and selecting an APP that has an endurance recovery power. Even the 360 second recharge on Dark Consumption or Consume, which was ridiculous before, can be whittled down to something semi-reasonable. But Conserve Power, Power Sink and maybe Hibernate seem like the major winners. Maybe I'll be proven wrong the long run, and there will always be outliers, but I can't think of any Controller build that isn't much better off with powers available more often. For one thing, if we go villain, we can now get a second pet more or less permanently, and I understand the Mu pet will even heal you (no promises tho since I havent actually seen it first hand).
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Quote:You can make just about any decent spec great with a few billion and any good spec Godly.Originally Posted by kash007uk2
Hiya All,
I want both with good Recharge too if possible. Budget can be as much as it needs to be... Purple sets is great where need to be slotted, just want good builds :P thats all im looking for.
You probably do need to give us some ballpark figure inf wise. Not point showing you a 4-5+ billion inf build when probably one 1-2% of the game population can actually afford it (and odds are you are not one of them). -
Plant/Cold/Psi Troller, level 4 Paragon Core (spiritual) and about 4 billion inf.
Perma Heat Loss and IW (never any end or CC problems). Can clear just about any spawn in seconds in near complete safety. -
Quote:Well they had enough AoE to get them down that far. Unless the procs themselves start saving you casts all you get is a very small marginal faster kill time on individual mobs. Yes killing mobs faster is always good but in general characters tend to dish out a lot more damage then they take.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
This scenario sounds articificial to me. Mainly because if the low damage characters we were talking about HAD an AoE to cast that would do sufficient damage to kill all of the remaining enemies in one shot, they would do it. But they don't.
An example:
When AoEing, most enemies don't take a huge amount of AoEs to kill (not to many people would attack a large group of powerful enemies recklessly).
12 Enemies
1st AoE- down to 66% health
2 procs- 2 enemies down to 33%
2nd AoE- down to 33% health, 2 low health enemies die
2 procs kill 2 enemies
3rd AoE- kill the last 8
Single targets tend to involve more attacks (since you tend to use single target on harder targets).
If your beating on a AV you may be casting your ST Immo, Hold, AP ST power many times.
For example to have some form of decent single target I often put a Armageddon proc in the ST root. Most single target roots hit for 100-110 (with damage slotting and containment) so each Armageddon proc just about saves me a single cast. (since i'm getting effectively double damage 1/3 of time) There tends to be far less overkill and 'wasted' procs.
This 'practical' example does not get covered in the math.
I guess my view is slanted because my main character has extremely strong AoE but in single target is quite weak (unless in certain circumstances). So procs for that character AoE tend to take a back set for procs that help single target. Add to that once he gets the lvl 4 alpha slot he will be pushing awful close to the recharge cap with FF procs with certain powers. While this may seem like a specific case, I suspect many (obviously I can't read minds this in an opinion) trollers (unless Mind or Ill) probably notice how lackluster their single target damage can be compared to AoE. -
Good post, just a few points.
There is a reason why (as much as I love it) theorycraft has it limits. If you played with Caltrops you would know it can take PBAOE sets. Whether it's a bug or not it's been like that since forever. So you can put a Sirocco' Dervish damage proc in there. You may even be able to fit in Obliteration proc, Eradication proc and Armageddon proc too since they all PBAOE sets as well. I am not willing to respec to check (someone can check?).
So Caltrops can does have at least 3 potential procs (since one of my MMs is slotted like that) and a possible 6 (one of which is an improved purple proc).
One of the reasons I am dead keen on Traps for Controllers.
The problem with taking a proc at full value is that it won't always do it's full value. Apart from the obvious overkill (which is fairly rare) I am thinking more the 'inevitable kill' scenario.
So you are AOEing down a pack and there are half a dozen enemies left who are low on health and your next AoE will kill them. Say you get lucky and you get a few procs on previous AOE and kill half of them. So now you have 3 low health enemies left. You still have to cast you AoE (that you would of cast anyway without the procs) so what did the procs proccing actually gain you? A few enemies dead a second earlier then they would of normally been?
Strangely enough damage procs on single targets tend to minimize this possible shortfall since on single targets good proccing can actually 'save you' casting additional powers (DPA). Basically procs in AoE do up DPS but often don't up DPA because it the proc damage is sometimes ineffective. Procs in single target attacks tend to up both DPA and DPS. -
Quote:Oh really? So that fact that Caltrops can be double stacked with plain recharge IOs, last a full 45 seconds (giving 5 chances to proc over duration) and can be triple stacked without too much drama. Add to that /Traps tends to be much lighter on slot usage.Originally Posted by Gilia
Emphasis mine. You said that that placing procs was the last priority, that they should only be placed when you have no other use for the slots. Since Freezing Rain is one of the most intelligent places to put damage procs, you couldn't be sensible and still believe that other psuedopets were a high priority. You already declared procs lose the "internal competition." You can't claim that of Freezing Rain w/o claiming it of every single power which takes less advantage of the damage procs.
You bolded part is a spoken by someone who has not used proctrops.
For Freezing Rain, with the high slot requirements in Storm/Cold has a low priority for damage procs. 2 chances to proc every 30 seconds isn't very good. If you pump the recharge you run into major slot crunch.
Just love it when other people tell you what you meant. "What you're trying to do is similar..." of course you use a metaphor because you don't have an actual quote to point to. Funny that.Quote:What you're trying to do is similar to arguing that "all drugs are bad, because they are an improper use of resources and it's unethical to modify ourselves as organisms in nature." Then when someone says "well, what about Aspirin and antibiotics?" you turn around and say "now, I didn't say that! Of course you can still take Aspirin!"
Good to see you can use wikipedia for your definitions as well but how about you save the time and just link the definitions instead of having you regurgitate them?
I have said they are a low (lowest for slow recharging, short duration patches with high slot competition) for priority but I have said several times they are not bad. In fact the very build I link has damage procs in it. One isn't even giving a set bonus, it is taken purely for it's proc damage. Inconsistency! Or is it in specific situations procs increase in priority? No lets stick to blanket definitions!
Wrong. As shown above Caltrops is actually superior (and I have and recommend procs in there on my MMs). So is Carrion Creepers as well with the Impeded Switftness proc. Lightning Storm with the Explosive Strike/Apocalypse damage proc since it bolt can hit multiple targets and it fires every 4 seconds.Quote:You shouldn't put procs in either of them. Neither will contribute as much DPS as procs in Freezing Rain, so clearly there's some other place to get that damage from.
Some of my other quotes:
Quote:If you have slots leftover then putting damage procs in Sleet is great but it's not a priority. Some of your quotes:Quote:Would a 15 second recharge Sleet really benefit from some damage procs? Hell yeah! I would love to do that. But I don't have any free slots. The same slots that would take damage procs are the same ones that bring my Sleet recharge down so that the procs would be so powerful. Bit of a Catch 22.
Quote:In my experience with Sleet, I actually preferred the Range/Damage HOs (mostly because they're cheap and I like the range), a frankenslot Damage/Recharge, and Recharge. Achilles makes sense, but I wasn't terribly keen on any of the sets. If, in your opinion, Freezing Rain/Sleet it's the best possible place to slot damage procs why don't you do it? You even thought they procced more then they did (making them even better) and still didn't slot them.Quote:Since Freezing Rain is one of the most intelligent places to put damage procs, you couldn't be sensible and still believe that other psuedopets were a high priority.
Despite Freezing Rain being the 'bestest friend ever!' to damage procs you put higher priority onto alternate slotting. Just like I do.
I even mention slotting Freezing Rain power with damage IOs in one of my earlier posts. It works really well for Caltrops. -
Quote:An Achilles proc does not stack in any way, shape or form with another Achilles Heel proc. The reason is the proc does not debuff the enemy but place an auto power on it which causes it to debuff itself.Originally Posted by Mezzosoprano
IIRC the -RES proc will actually stack, since the 'caster' is the Freezing Rain patch, not your character.
It's probably for the best it does not stack, since almost any form of stacking would be brutal (since many builds tend to have at least one proc in them). -
Quote:So that fact that some sets have a high internal competition for slots does not count? That some powers have a high internal competition for slot does not count? Or are you arguing that slots in all patch powers are all equally useful?Originally Posted by Gilia
Correct me if I'm wrong (again
), but this is part of what I was trying to get at in my first post. Continually casting Freezing Rain means the procs actually do (0.2 * 72) / 7.5 = 1.92. Not a huge improvement, of course, just a mild distinction. Because procs on psuedopets don't care about other psuedo pets. So in the "cast every 15 seconds" scenario, the proc checks at T0, the initial cast, T10, the pulse on rain 1, T15 the second cast, T25, rain 2 pulses, etc. So in every single 15 second window, the proc has checked/rolled twice, because of a cast and a 10 second pulse. 15/2 = 7.5.
Because if you claim that slotting Freezing Rain with damage procs is (virtually/almost/whatever) never a good idea, then you ARE saying it's never a good idea for any psuedopet/patch/rain powers. Because the damage value of such a proc in Freezing Rain is the same as it is in those other powers. Arguably, it's better! Because the damage is low enough that a Damage IO isn't going to do more damage over time, there's a -res to boost some of the procs' damage, and Freezing Rain is a patch you will try to put up all the time.
So it's not a worthwhile use of slots to put a damage proc in Freezing Rain, it must not be to put one in Earthquake... that won't be up as often. It must not be a good idea to put it in Rain of Fire... because RoF benefits from damage IOs, has no -res, and no way KD to keep enemies clustered within it.
Really, you aren't reading into your OWN argument. Oedipus_Tex was just showing you where your line of thinking eventually leads.
Similarly, if a damage proc isn't worthwhile in a patch power that's up virtually all the time, then the only place that damage procs could possibly ever be worthwhile is (a) because they're contributing to a set bonus or (b) because the attack's recharge is less than 10 seconds, and it can be expected to hit as many targets as a patch would. (B) is extremely rare. So, your line of thinking would actually put the value of damage procs almost exclusively as pieces of sets, contributing set bonuses.
How about instead of going slippery slope on me you actually stick to the argument I make? Instead of "logical progression" (ie we can exaggerate it so we can strawman).
Do you slot Tar Patch with damage procs? Pretty much no one does. Does that fact suddenly mean you don't slot Caltrops with damage procs? -
Quote:I said that procs were only marginally better then damage IOs.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Not worth it for who in what situation? For your Plant/Cold Controller build specifically? You need to clarify this statement because in this post and others it sounds like you're saying "it's not worth it for anyone because there is always a better place to put the slot." You also suggested that putting a damage IO in the slot is better than putting a damage proc, which is simply incorrect using either my method or the method of averaging proc damage.
In terms of procs Sleet and Freezing Rain are exactly identical* to any AoE patch power. Are you also claiming you should never put a proc in Caltrops? In Arctic Air? In Earthquake? In any standard AoE with a recharge longer than 10 seconds? That is really quite a substantial claim and not limited to Sleet or Freezing Rain in its scope. Putting a damage proc in any power that you were planning to keep up during the entire fight has exactly the same effect as slotting it in Sleet.
*Almost exactly identical. Some powers have no ToHit check.
Actually it's not identical since the opportunity costs, recharge times, durations all play a part. So powers have a lot of competition for their slots (such as Sleet/Freezing Rain). Some do not have that competition or access to as many IO pools. Or are you saying slots in all Patch powers are equally valuable?
Quote:It's not whether damage procs in Sleet/Freezing Rain are effective but whether they are better the other uses of those slots. How you get from that to "never slot any AoE patch power with a damage proc" I don't know. Or are you saying you should always slot all possible procs into every patch power as priority without thinking about it? Of course you aren't because I don't read into arguments that are not there.Quote:The most important aspect of slotting is opportunity cost. Virtually any IO you slot into any power will provide some benefit. The question is which one gives the largest boost to performance.
Add to that the power sets themselves can have an effect. Cold, Storm and Dark are some of the power sets that tend to be very slots heavy. Cold can easily justify 6 slots in Heat Loss, Arctic Fog and Sleet with both shields being possible set mules. Storm and Dark are even worse. How many powers do you 6 slot in Kinetic?
My point during this whole thread is you have to think about what you use your slots for. IMO 2 chances to proc in a AoE power once every 30 seconds (where most people have their Sleet/Freezing Rain at) isn't a particularity good deal. I have my Sleet down to 15 seconds. That cost slots and they had to come from somewhere. Would a 15 second recharge Sleet really benefit from some damage procs? Hell yeah! I would love to do that. But I don't have any free slots. The same slots that would take damage procs are the same ones that bring my Sleet recharge down so that the procs would be so powerful. Bit of a Catch 22. -
Quote:Didn't say its not better just that its not worth it. Said this several times now.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
By slotting two damage IOs you are adding only 20 points of damage, or about 10 damage per slot expended.
A 20% chance to proc rolled twice is 36%. If you average this, you get 0.36 * 72 = 25 average damage per slot. Except that's inaccurate, because 4% of the time the proc fires twice on one enemy for double damage.
10 < 25
I don't agree with the averaging methodology for procs, but even using it you still get better average damage. I also don't know if you can call minimum 83% odds per enemy with 4 procs slotted unreliable.
For my Plant Troller I tend to spam Roots and Psi Tornado. A proc killing off one or two guys does not help me since I have to still AoE the rest of them. It saves me no time.
If your using a proc heavy Sleet on a single target you can use those slots to IO up single target attacks who will be used more often then once every 10 seconds.
If you have slots leftover then putting damage procs in Sleet is great but it's not a priority. There are better places to put them for AoE and single target. 2 proc chances every 30 seconds (though IOs set bonuses can bring it to 15 seconds) is just not worth it.
An Example:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Plant Control
Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strangler -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(3), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(5)
Level 1: Infrigidate -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Entangle -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Dmg(7), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(9), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Apoc-Dam%(11)
Level 4: Roots -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dam%(5), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(13), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15)
Level 6: Hover -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-EndRdx(7), RedFtn-Def(15), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(17), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 8: Seeds of Confusion -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf%(11), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(19), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(19), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(21), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(21)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 12: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Ice Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 16: Glacial Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 18: Boxing -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(23), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(31), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(33), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(36), Stpfy-KB%(50)
Level 20: Arctic Fog -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(23), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(25), RedFtn-EndRdx(27), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(27), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 22: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 24: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(29), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFtn-Def(31), RedFtn-EndRdx(33), LkGmblr-Rchg+(36)
Level 26: Carrion Creepers -- HO:Nucle(A), HO:Nucle(34), ImpSwft-Dam%(34), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 28: Benumb -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 30: Vines -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(36), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(37), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(37)
Level 32: Fly Trap -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(39), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(39), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(43), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(43)
Level 35: Sleet -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), Achilles-ResDeb%(42)
Level 38: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(40), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(46), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(50)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), LkGmblr-Rchg+(43)
Level 44: World of Confusion -- Mlais-Acc/Rchg(A), Mlais-EndRdx/Conf(45), Mlais-Acc/EndRdx(45), Mlais-Conf/Rng(45), Mlais-Acc/Conf/Rchg(46), Mlais-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dam%(50)
Level 49: Mind Over Body -- HO:Ribo(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 6: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A)
This is my current Plant/Cold build. I would love some procs in Sleet. But what would I drop? It's not whether damage procs in Sleet/Freezing Rain are effective but whether they are better the other uses of those slots. -
Quote:You right its not the same "dealing 20% of 72 damage all the time" is better because there is less overkill and is more reliable.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It's completely different. You are still averaging damage. 45.9* damage (which is what the power does slotted with 2 level 50 damage IOs on a Controller) is not the same thing as a chance for 72, 144, 216, 288 or more damage concentrated on a single enemy at random. The only place an enemy dies "an average number of times" is on spreadsheets. Dealing 72 damage 20% of the time is not the same as dealing 20% of 72 damage all the time.
*Note that the base damage of the power is 25, so all users start with this level of damage. Slotting two damage IOs increases the value by about 20 damage. This damage is averaged across all enemies and does not concentrate on any one of them. It is, however, more or less "guaranteed."
[EDIT: I just reread this and my previous post and they sound huffy. I don't mean it to. I guess I speak too tersely about math topics. Because I actually really hate math. This particular issue with proc damage being averaged really has been a sore point for me for a long time tho. I didn't mean to make it sound so personal, I am just kind of a nerd-rager who types faster than he can think, as others here will tell you.]
You should be happy that I'm averaging it since it shows damage procs in the best possible light. It removes the overkill factor and 'wasted procs' on enemies that were dying or going to do very soon.
The most important aspect of slotting is opportunity cost. Virtually any IO you slot into any power will provide some benefit. The question is which one gives the largest boost to performance.
The most important aspect of damage is time. Since time is the only resource that is truly finite and can't be recouped after it has past.
Relax, I regularly debate/argue about politics and religion. Compared to that this forum is tame.Quote:[EDIT: I just reread this and my previous post and they sound huffy. I don't mean it to. I guess I speak too tersely about math topics. Because I actually really hate math. This particular issue with proc damage being averaged really has been a sore point for me for a long time tho. I didn't mean to make it sound so personal, I am just kind of a nerd-rager who types faster than he can think, as others here will tell you.] -
Quote:It's not free it costs 4 slots. Nothing wrong with slotting procs in there if you have no where else to put them. Slotting 4 procs is only slightly better then slotting 2 procs and 2 damage IOs 59.72 damage (0.83 x 72) versus 51.33.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Hmm. I don't look at it that way at all. Especially on a low-ish damage character like some Controller or Defenders.
I'll ignore -Resistance for the moment and pretend the proc hits at base value. That's a 20% chance for about 72 damage. This breaks down the odds that at least one fires per enemy per tick as follows:
[EDIT: Corrected math]
*Actual odds are slightly lower. I'm assuming that the Sleet power itself actually hit the target.Code:Procs Slotted Chance at Least 1 Hits* 1 20% 2 36% 3 49% 4 59%
So, with 4 damage procs slotted, your odds that at least one of them fires are 59% per tick, per enemy. There are two ticks (one at cast time and one at the 10 second pulse), so the odds that at least one proc hits the enemy in total are 1-((1-.59)^2) = 83%. There is an 83% chance per enemy that you hit them for a minimum of 72 damage. One way to look at it is that it is essentially the same as receiving at least a free Defender-level Power Burst each time you cast Sleet or Freezing Rain. That's not even considering enemies who get hit with more than one tick. You'll be keeping the power up all the time (or at least you should), so you're getting a free lunch here. Importantly, you are not expending extra seconds because you would be expending time on the Sleet or Freezing Rain animation anyway.
Now, the way you've put it, the damage is spread out across 16 enemies. That is not, IMO, an appropriate way to look at it. The damage is focused on particular enemies, not spread out across the board. In fact, standard DPA and DPS models completely fail to capture what actually happens, because they only look at averages.
Multi proccing a power that is constantly active actually has an effect similar to a pet with a powerful single target attack and a weaker AoE. It runs around doing damage to specific enemies, and one or two unlucky guys get clocked with the heavy hitter. No one would think to calculate the DPS of Jack Frost or Animate Stone by dividing their damage to a single target by a group of 16 enemies; you look at it based on the guy who got stomped. That enemy died, because the damage was concentrated on him. You win fights by beating particular enemies, not knocking down the overall average damage of the group.
Anyway, I hope that's helpful. Hopefully I didn't flub the math too badly.
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Quote:Well yeah, that's what I said. While the expensive toggle in Fire or Ice may encourage the EndRdx Alpha slot it's probably going to be the secondary that will decide it. Doubt there will be many Ice/Kin or Fire/Kin that will be slotting EndRdx Alpha.Originally Posted by Local_Man
Fire and Ice both have an endurance-draining toggle that make the EndRdx Alpha slotting worth considering. In some cases, the character's build may have enough Recharge but may need a reduction in endurance. Especially in the case of an Ice/Rad or Fire/Rad, but */Storm and several other secondaries can have high demands on endurance, too.
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Quote:Kinda.Originally Posted by pmgunnerxx
no accuracy really needed because it checks multiple times even if the first chance proc chance misses freezing rain will at some point debuff their defense and the proc will have a few more chances to hit.
The next chance to proc will be after 10 seconds.
For me the only really worthwhile proc in Sleet/Rain in Ach. Hell -resist proc. Really ups the damage on a target.
Your standard damage proc does 91 damage (70 odd x 1.3 due to resist debuff) over 10 seconds with a 20% chance to proc. A whole 1.82 extra DPS per target. I don't consider that a good use of a valuable slot. -
If someone SBs me cool, if they don't that's fine too. With all my buffs I barely notice if another one pops up or not. Probably 95% of the people I group with seem to play the same way.
On my /Cold I throw the odd shield on Brutes/Tankers/Scappers but I have only ever had one person ask for them.
I love how people get all self righteous over buffs, both in the giving and receiving. Maybe it's just forum bravado.
How people play in CoH and talk on the forums seem to be two very different things. -
As a general rule it's not the primary that decides what to slot in the Alpha but your secondary.
Apart from Illusion (and to a lesser extent Mind) the rest of the primaries have fairly similar mechanics. It's the secondaries that will be affected the most. -
Quote:I also have to wonder at buying 2 bil PvP IOs for a farm too.Originally Posted by Sardan
They don't sell on the market because people are willing to pay more than 2 billion each for them. If you have that kind of dough, just post in the Market forum that you want to buy. You should be able to get what you want quickly.
With the right farm map you can make a killer pure farming Fire/Kin for a couple hundred mil.
Remember a farm character does not need to be strong against everything, just what you are farming.