Freezing Rain and Procs
By
Dirges,
Posted on: 2010-12-01 21:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by twelfth
Hey there folks. Quick question, and I think it's been answered before, but I can't recollect what the facts were.
Looking at storm summoning Freezing Rain. Noticed that it takes (accurate) defense debuffs. So that suggests that I could stick in the Lady Grey Chance/Neg Dmg and Achilles Heel Procs into it. Question is - when to the procs fire? On each target? On each damage tick? Or just on each use/click of the power? Thanks for any assistance. |
I think once on the first cast of the power and then once again 10 seconds later. Each enemy in the radius rolls its chance individually.
You can proc the heck out of this power, by the way. I think it can take 5 total, at which point it's basically an AoE blast.
I understand however that it checks if the procs fire before the Rain applies its defense debuff, so make sure you slot in some accuracy if you are going to add procs.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
no accuracy really needed because it checks multiple times even if the first chance proc chance misses freezing rain will at some point debuff their defense and the proc will have a few more chances to hit.
"I think I'm cute. I've got gold medals.
I've got the moves that make them all tap out.
The Angle Slam, the Ankle Lock.
Marty Jannetty...still can't walk.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt."
Kurt Angle
Quote:
Kinda.|
Originally Posted by pmgunnerxx
no accuracy really needed because it checks multiple times even if the first chance proc chance misses freezing rain will at some point debuff their defense and the proc will have a few more chances to hit.
|
The next chance to proc will be after 10 seconds.
For me the only really worthwhile proc in Sleet/Rain in Ach. Hell -resist proc. Really ups the damage on a target.
Your standard damage proc does 91 damage (70 odd x 1.3 due to resist debuff) over 10 seconds with a 20% chance to proc. A whole 1.82 extra DPS per target. I don't consider that a good use of a valuable slot.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
Kinda.
The next chance to proc will be after 10 seconds. For me the only really worthwhile proc in Sleet/Rain in Ach. Hell -resist proc. Really ups the damage on a target. Your standard damage proc does 91 damage (70 odd x 1.3 due to resist debuff) over 10 seconds with a 20% chance to proc. A whole 1.82 extra DPS per target. I don't consider that a good use of a valuable slot. |
Proc damage is not over 10 seconds but instantaneous. How is the 10 second cool down relevant to a DPS discussion? It seems unless you are constructing a closed attack chain which occupies a full circuit and you have better uses in that chain for an additional slot (or can achieve a set bonus germane to that chain) it seems that the Proc cool down is only as relevant as any other power recharge.
Quote:
You see, procs won't check to fire again for 10 seconds out of the same power, if it's a toggle or psuedopet power (like Freezing Rain). Since Freezing Rain lasts 30 seconds it can proc up to 4 times! At cast time, after 10 seconds, 20 seconds, and 30 seconds.|
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
Proc damage is not over 10 seconds but instantaneous. How is the 10 second cool down relevant to a DPS discussion?
|
So you weigh the damage of the proc (~70 at level 50 I believe) times the chance (usually 20%), for 14 damage (on average, against each target). However, that will go off 4 times, so really each proc adds an average of 56 damage against each target. For a power that only does 25 damage at base, that's pretty impressive.
It has nothing to do with attack chains or the recharge on your other powers. So yes, in that sense it's not relevant. For the value of procs vs regular damage IOs it's very relevant.
Now if you mean to say it's irrelevant for DPS concerns because each 10 second block will do the same damage you're close, but not quite on. Since Rain powers can check 4 times in 30 seconds, you actually have to calculate them as if they went off every 7.5 seconds if you want to boil your DPS down to a small window like that. Even doing that is horribly impractical. The mathematical hoops you have to jump through to calculate your DPS in small windows like that just aren't prudent. You'd be better off calculating your DPS in the whole 30 second window of Freezing Rain. Why is that? Because it's not just your quick recharging attack chain's DPS + Freezing Rain, it's your quick recharging attack chain minus the activation time of Freezing Rain (at intervals that vary based on your recharge) + Freezing Rain's DPS. Ick.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Quote:
Just to mess up your very hopeful post, Freezing Rain itself lasts only for 15 seconds. It is the debuff from Freezing Rain that lasts 30 seconds. So the proc is only going to have a chance to hit twice -- once when cast and a second time 10 seconds later.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
You see, procs won't check to fire again for 10 seconds out of the same power, if it's a toggle or psuedopet power (like Freezing Rain). Since Freezing Rain lasts 30 seconds it can proc up to 4 times! At cast time, after 10 seconds, 20 seconds, and 30 seconds.
So you weigh the damage of the proc (~70 at level 50 I believe) times the chance (usually 20%), for 14 damage (on average, against each target). However, that will go off 4 times, so really each proc adds an average of 56 damage against each target. For a power that only does 25 damage at base, that's pretty impressive. It has nothing to do with attack chains or the recharge on your other powers. So yes, in that sense it's not relevant. For the value of procs vs regular damage IOs it's very relevant. My view is that after getting slotting for capped recharge, procs in Freezing Rain are a good idea, but only after you have slotted up what you need in your powers and have some slots available. The Achilles Heal proc is my first choice, then damage procs if I have any slots available. The Achilles Heal proc is a debuff, so it boosts the damage for everyone on the team by 20% which is likely to be more overall damage than the damage proc would do. Now if you mean to say it's irrelevant for DPS concerns because each 10 second block will do the same damage you're close, but not quite on. Since Rain powers can check 4 times in 30 seconds, you actually have to calculate them as if they went off every 7.5 seconds if you want to boil your DPS down to a small window like that. Even doing that is horribly impractical. The mathematical hoops you have to jump through to calculate your DPS in small windows like that just aren't prudent. You'd be better off calculating your DPS in the whole 30 second window of Freezing Rain. Why is that? Because it's not just your quick recharging attack chain's DPS + Freezing Rain, it's your quick recharging attack chain minus the activation time of Freezing Rain (at intervals that vary based on your recharge) + Freezing Rain's DPS. Ick. |
My view is that after slotting for capped Recharge, procs are a good idea. The Achilles Heal proc is best since it is a debuff that boosts the damage of everyone on the team. That is likely to be more damage than any of the damage procs. Other procs can be added with any leftover slots once all other powers are slotted.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
Freezing Rain lasts 15 seconds. The debuffs from Freezing Rain are supposed to last 30 seconds, but there's a long-standing bug that makes that an iffy proposition.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
You see, procs won't check to fire again for 10 seconds out of the same power, if it's a toggle or psuedopet power (like Freezing Rain). Since Freezing Rain lasts 30 seconds it can proc up to 4 times! At cast time, after 10 seconds, 20 seconds, and 30 seconds.
|
Leaving that aside, you get two proc checks per rain, which means that it's not a great place to put procs unless you're just desperate for every possible extra bit of damage and you have nowhere else to put them.
Quote:
| It has nothing to do with attack chains or the recharge on your other powers. So yes, in that sense it's not relevant. For the value of procs vs regular damage IOs it's very relevant. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Just to mess up your very hopeful post, Freezing Rain itself lasts only for 15 seconds.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Freezing Rain lasts 15 seconds. The debuffs from Freezing Rain are supposed to last 30 seconds, but there's a long-standing bug that makes that an iffy proposition.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Leaving that aside, you get two proc checks per rain, which means that it's not a great place to put procs unless you're just desperate for every possible extra bit of damage and you have nowhere else to put them.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
The logic that governs attack chains is the very same logic that tells us to average the proc's value out over time.
|
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
Kinda.
The next chance to proc will be after 10 seconds. For me the only really worthwhile proc in Sleet/Rain in Ach. Hell -resist proc. Really ups the damage on a target. Your standard damage proc does 91 damage (70 odd x 1.3 due to resist debuff) over 10 seconds with a 20% chance to proc. A whole 1.82 extra DPS per target. I don't consider that a good use of a valuable slot. |
Hmm. I don't look at it that way at all. Especially on a low-ish damage character like some Controller or Defenders.
I'll ignore -Resistance for the moment and pretend the proc hits at base value. That's a 20% chance for about 72 damage. This breaks down the odds that at least one fires per enemy per tick as follows:
[EDIT: Corrected math]
Code:
Procs Slotted Chance at Least 1 Hits*
1 20%
2 36%
3 49%
4 59%
So, with 4 damage procs slotted, your odds that at least one of them fires are 59% per tick, per enemy. There are two ticks (one at cast time and one at the 10 second pulse), so the odds that at least one proc hits the enemy in total are 1-((1-.59)^2) = 83%. There is an 83% chance per enemy that you hit them for a minimum of 72 damage. One way to look at it is that it is essentially the same as receiving at least a free Defender-level Power Burst each time you cast Sleet or Freezing Rain. That's not even considering enemies who get hit with more than one tick. You'll be keeping the power up all the time (or at least you should), so you're getting a free lunch here. Importantly, you are not expending extra seconds because you would be expending time on the Sleet or Freezing Rain animation anyway.
Now, the way you've put it, the damage is spread out across 16 enemies. That is not, IMO, an appropriate way to look at it. The damage is focused on particular enemies, not spread out across the board. In fact, standard DPA and DPS models completely fail to capture what actually happens, because they only look at averages.
Multi proccing a power that is constantly active actually has an effect similar to a pet with a powerful single target attack and a weaker AoE. It runs around doing damage to specific enemies, and one or two unlucky guys get clocked with the heavy hitter. No one would think to calculate the DPS of Jack Frost or Animate Stone by dividing their damage to a single target by a group of 16 enemies; you look at it based on the guy who got stomped. That enemy died, because the damage was concentrated on him. You win fights by beating particular enemies, not knocking down the overall average damage of the group.
Anyway, I hope that's helpful. Hopefully I didn't flub the math too badly.
Quote:
I believe with 4 the chance that one hits is only 59%, not 67%. I know the formula you used was 1-((Chance for Failure)^Trials)= Chance of at least one success. So 1-(0.8^trials), and your first three match what I get. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Anyway, I hope that's helpful. Hopefully I didn't flub the math too badly.
|
That's only relevant because you used the 67% in the next step. Though, you could have just as easily used the same formula and assumed 8 trials. Either way, the end result is 83%. Not much lower than your 89%. I think your point is still completely valid.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gilia
I believe with 4 the chance that one hits is only 59%, not 67%. I know the formula you used was 1-((Chance for Failure)^Trials)= Chance of at least one success. So 1-(0.8^trials), and your first three match what I get.
That's only relevant because you used the 67% in the next step. Though, you could have just as easily used the same formula and assumed 8 trials. Either way, the end result is 83%. Not much lower than your 89%. I think your point is still completely valid. |
Oops you're right. I copied out of the wrong column. 67% are the odds with 5 procs, not 4. With 4 procs I agree the odds are 59%, with an end result of 83% chance. Thanks for the correction!
Wow that was a lot more interest than I thought there would be on the topic.
Will definitely be slotting the -res proc; I'll probably save up some of the other damage ones to slot in later in my build (presently only a 26 corr) as recharge and global acc get modified.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by twelfth
Wow that was a lot more interest than I thought there would be on the topic.
Will definitely be slotting the -res proc; I'll probably save up some of the other damage ones to slot in later in my build (presently only a 26 corr) as recharge and global acc get modified. |
To give you an idea on overall build slotting, what I have found ideal is a massive recharge build with large global accuracy bonuses. That lets me put a single Recharge IO in Sleet (or even Lady Grey Recharge/Defense Debuff), and slot 5 procs.
Note however that I mainly play low damage characters who don't solo AVs. For an AV soloer you probably want insane recharge--basically you want to be able to double-stack the Sleets. I have never actually done this. It is far more practical against a hard single target than against large groups who tend to die quickly.
Quote:
It's not free it costs 4 slots. Nothing wrong with slotting procs in there if you have no where else to put them. Slotting 4 procs is only slightly better then slotting 2 procs and 2 damage IOs 59.72 damage (0.83 x 72) versus 51.33.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Hmm. I don't look at it that way at all. Especially on a low-ish damage character like some Controller or Defenders.
I'll ignore -Resistance for the moment and pretend the proc hits at base value. That's a 20% chance for about 72 damage. This breaks down the odds that at least one fires per enemy per tick as follows: [EDIT: Corrected math] Code:
Procs Slotted Chance at Least 1 Hits*
1 20%
2 36%
3 49%
4 59%
So, with 4 damage procs slotted, your odds that at least one of them fires are 59% per tick, per enemy. There are two ticks (one at cast time and one at the 10 second pulse), so the odds that at least one proc hits the enemy in total are 1-((1-.59)^2) = 83%. There is an 83% chance per enemy that you hit them for a minimum of 72 damage. One way to look at it is that it is essentially the same as receiving at least a free Defender-level Power Burst each time you cast Sleet or Freezing Rain. That's not even considering enemies who get hit with more than one tick. You'll be keeping the power up all the time (or at least you should), so you're getting a free lunch here. Importantly, you are not expending extra seconds because you would be expending time on the Sleet or Freezing Rain animation anyway. Now, the way you've put it, the damage is spread out across 16 enemies. That is not, IMO, an appropriate way to look at it. The damage is focused on particular enemies, not spread out across the board. In fact, standard DPA and DPS models completely fail to capture what actually happens, because they only look at averages. Multi proccing a power that is constantly active actually has an effect similar to a pet with a powerful single target attack and a weaker AoE. It runs around doing damage to specific enemies, and one or two unlucky guys get clocked with the heavy hitter. No one would think to calculate the DPS of Jack Frost or Animate Stone by dividing their damage to a single target by a group of 16 enemies; you look at it based on the guy who got stomped. That enemy died, because the damage was concentrated on him. You win fights by beating particular enemies, not knocking down the overall average damage of the group. Anyway, I hope that's helpful. Hopefully I didn't flub the math too badly. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
It's not free it costs 4 slots. Nothing wrong with slotting procs in there if you have no where else to put them. Slotting 4 procs is only slightly better then slotting 2 procs and 2 damage IOs 59.72 damage (0.83 x 72) versus 51.33.
|
It's completely different. You are still averaging damage. 45.9* damage (which is what the power does slotted with 2 level 50 damage IOs on a Controller) is not the same thing as a chance for 72, 144, 216, 288 or more damage concentrated on a single enemy at random. The only place an enemy dies "an average number of times" is on spreadsheets. Dealing 72 damage 20% of the time is not the same as dealing 20% of 72 damage all the time.
*Note that the base damage of the power is 25, so all users start with this level of damage. Slotting two damage IOs increases the value by about 20 damage. This damage is averaged across all enemies and does not concentrate on any one of them. It is, however, more or less "guaranteed."
[EDIT: I just reread this and my previous post and they sound huffy. I don't mean it to. I guess I speak too tersely about math topics. Because I actually really hate math. This particular issue with proc damage being averaged really has been a sore point for me for a long time tho. I didn't mean to make it sound so personal, I am just kind of a nerd-rager who types faster than he can think, as others here will tell you.]
Quote:
You right its not the same "dealing 20% of 72 damage all the time" is better because there is less overkill and is more reliable.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It's completely different. You are still averaging damage. 45.9* damage (which is what the power does slotted with 2 level 50 damage IOs on a Controller) is not the same thing as a chance for 72, 144, 216, 288 or more damage concentrated on a single enemy at random. The only place an enemy dies "an average number of times" is on spreadsheets. Dealing 72 damage 20% of the time is not the same as dealing 20% of 72 damage all the time.
*Note that the base damage of the power is 25, so all users start with this level of damage. Slotting two damage IOs increases the value by about 20 damage. This damage is averaged across all enemies and does not concentrate on any one of them. It is, however, more or less "guaranteed." [EDIT: I just reread this and my previous post and they sound huffy. I don't mean it to. I guess I speak too tersely about math topics. Because I actually really hate math. This particular issue with proc damage being averaged really has been a sore point for me for a long time tho. I didn't mean to make it sound so personal, I am just kind of a nerd-rager who types faster than he can think, as others here will tell you.] |
You should be happy that I'm averaging it since it shows damage procs in the best possible light. It removes the overkill factor and 'wasted procs' on enemies that were dying or going to do very soon.
The most important aspect of slotting is opportunity cost. Virtually any IO you slot into any power will provide some benefit. The question is which one gives the largest boost to performance.
The most important aspect of damage is time. Since time is the only resource that is truly finite and can't be recouped after it has past.
Quote:
| [EDIT: I just reread this and my previous post and they sound huffy. I don't mean it to. I guess I speak too tersely about math topics. Because I actually really hate math. This particular issue with proc damage being averaged really has been a sore point for me for a long time tho. I didn't mean to make it sound so personal, I am just kind of a nerd-rager who types faster than he can think, as others here will tell you.] |
Quote:
By slotting two damage IOs you are adding only 20 points of damage, or about 10 damage per slot expended. |
Originally Posted by Max_zero
You right its not the same "dealing 20% of 72 damage all the time" is better because there is less overkill and is more reliable.
|
A 20% chance to proc rolled twice is 36%. If you average this, you get 0.36 * 72 = 25 average damage per slot. Except that's inaccurate, because 4% of the time the proc fires twice on one enemy for double damage.
10 < 25
I don't agree with the averaging methodology for procs, but even using it you still get better average damage. I also don't know if you can call minimum 83% odds per enemy with 4 procs slotted unreliable.
Quote:
Didn't say its not better just that its not worth it. Said this several times now. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
By slotting two damage IOs you are adding only 20 points of damage, or about 10 damage per slot expended.
A 20% chance to proc rolled twice is 36%. If you average this, you get 0.36 * 72 = 25 average damage per slot. Except that's inaccurate, because 4% of the time the proc fires twice on one enemy for double damage. 10 < 25 I don't agree with the averaging methodology for procs, but even using it you still get better average damage. I also don't know if you can call minimum 83% odds per enemy with 4 procs slotted unreliable. |
For my Plant Troller I tend to spam Roots and Psi Tornado. A proc killing off one or two guys does not help me since I have to still AoE the rest of them. It saves me no time.
If your using a proc heavy Sleet on a single target you can use those slots to IO up single target attacks who will be used more often then once every 10 seconds.
If you have slots leftover then putting damage procs in Sleet is great but it's not a priority. There are better places to put them for AoE and single target. 2 proc chances every 30 seconds (though IOs set bonuses can bring it to 15 seconds) is just not worth it.
An Example:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Plant Control
Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strangler -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(3), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(5)
Level 1: Infrigidate -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Entangle -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Dmg(7), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(9), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Apoc-Dam%(11)
Level 4: Roots -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dam%(5), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(13), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15)
Level 6: Hover -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-EndRdx(7), RedFtn-Def(15), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(17), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 8: Seeds of Confusion -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf%(11), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(19), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(19), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(21), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(21)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 12: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Ice Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 16: Glacial Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 18: Boxing -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(23), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(31), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(33), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(36), Stpfy-KB%(50)
Level 20: Arctic Fog -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(23), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(25), RedFtn-EndRdx(27), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(27), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 22: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 24: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(29), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFtn-Def(31), RedFtn-EndRdx(33), LkGmblr-Rchg+(36)
Level 26: Carrion Creepers -- HO:Nucle(A), HO:Nucle(34), ImpSwft-Dam%(34), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 28: Benumb -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 30: Vines -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(36), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(37), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(37)
Level 32: Fly Trap -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(39), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(39), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(43), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(43)
Level 35: Sleet -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), Achilles-ResDeb%(42)
Level 38: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(40), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(46), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(50)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), LkGmblr-Rchg+(43)
Level 44: World of Confusion -- Mlais-Acc/Rchg(A), Mlais-EndRdx/Conf(45), Mlais-Acc/EndRdx(45), Mlais-Conf/Rng(45), Mlais-Acc/Conf/Rchg(46), Mlais-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dam%(50)
Level 49: Mind Over Body -- HO:Ribo(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 6: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A)
This is my current Plant/Cold build. I would love some procs in Sleet. But what would I drop? It's not whether damage procs in Sleet/Freezing Rain are effective but whether they are better the other uses of those slots.
Quote:
| Didn't say its not better just that its not worth it. Said this several times now. |
Quote:
| If you have slots leftover then putting damage procs in Sleet is great but it's not a priority. There are better places to put them for AoE and single target. 2 proc chances every 30 seconds (though IOs set bonuses can bring it to 15 seconds) is just not worth it. |
Not worth it for who in what situation? For your Plant/Cold Controller build specifically? You need to clarify this statement because in this post and others it sounds like you're saying "it's not worth it for anyone because there is always a better place to put the slot." You also suggested that putting a damage IO in the slot is better than putting a damage proc, which is simply incorrect using either my method or the method of averaging proc damage.
In terms of procs Sleet and Freezing Rain are exactly identical* to any AoE patch power. Are you also claiming you should never put a proc in Caltrops? In Arctic Air? In Earthquake? In any standard AoE with a recharge longer than 10 seconds? That is really quite a substantial claim and not limited to Sleet or Freezing Rain in its scope. Putting a damage proc in any power that you were planning to keep up during the entire fight has exactly the same effect as slotting it in Sleet.
*Almost exactly identical. Some powers have no ToHit check.
My point was that unless you are getting set bonuses from those slots which affect your overall attack chain looking at the DPs/slot isnt an effective measure of the the opportunity cost. When calculating the DPS of a chain the recharge of any particular power is important only in terms of its position and frequency in the chain. Essentially the use of Proc's can front load some damage into DOT powers. Now from a perspective over time there is an easy calculation to determine if a Proc or a Damage IO is better and this is based on the base damage of the power. Generally speaking the lower the damage the more the proc makes sense.
The question becomes is damage value X in a "free lunch" situation worth one slot? Its a question of opportunity costs.
The opportunity cost of a proc in Zero's build is: recharge slots in Indomitable Will? Not 6-slotting hover? Would the Proc in creepers be better served in Sleet?
Much of that is a matter of taste but in a build with Perma-Dom (and its benefits) the marginal benefit of recharge slots in Indomitable will doesnt seem to be worthwhile especially considering the other auto-fire (hasten-Dom) options.
Quote:
I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to draw here. When evaluating an attack chain, it's true that recharge isn't the primary determining factor (or if you prefer, the primary bottleneck on your damage output); the damage per activation time is the main factor -- assuming you have enough recharge to chain attacks seamlessly.|
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
My point was that unless you are getting set bonuses from those slots which affect your overall attack chain looking at the DPs/slot isnt an effective measure of the the opportunity cost. When calculating the DPS of a chain the recharge of any particular power is important only in terms of its position and frequency in the chain. Essentially the use of Proc's can front load some damage into DOT powers. Now from a perspective over time there is an easy calculation to determine if a Proc or a Damage IO is better and this is based on the base damage of the power. Generally speaking the lower the damage the more the proc makes sense.
|
But how much DPS a given choice gives you is absolutely the right way to judge what to do with an attack chain.
In the case of Freezing Rain, we're not talking about a single-target attack that fits into a constantly recycled chain, but we are talking about a power that is so good (for its debuffs) that you generally want to cast it as often as possible irrespective of the damage the power itself delivers.
And if we assume (generously) that Freezing Rain is cast every 15 seconds, then a typical proc adds (0.2 * 72) / 10 = 1.44 DPS to your build. That's a pretty pathetic return on your slot investment almost no matter how you slice it. If you're pursuing a set bonus that happens to include the proc anyway, then great. But you have to be really hard up for damage, or really overburdened with free enhancement slots for that choice to be mechanically worthwhie.
Not saying it's always a bad choice. If there's basically no cost (as you say -- no compelling and mutually exclusive alternative), then have at it. Just understand that the return isn't very good.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
Firstly my issue is comparing the impact of adding a Proc in a power you will most certainly use, to the benefit of slots that may not be in the attack chain or a power that quantified in the same standard..(ie. non-attack powers.)
Beyond that the constraining factor in DPS calculations is activation time not recharge time. In so much as the 10 second cool down is a factor it is as a multiple of the damage done as compared to the powers length. Ie 1 application on cast, 2nd application on the 10 second mark. The S isnt seconds per power length its the Seconds of cast time used. Other wise powers which have no duration are infinity powerful. So no dividing by 10...you arent using those 10 seconds for Freezing rain you are doing other things like casting seeds, creepers, domination , what have you.
So we need to compare the results of activation time. The time the toon consumes in activation of the power.
The initial Cast time is the limiting factor and the commodity being measured. DPS is measuring what the most efficient use of your cast time is. You dont divide the damage by the cool down time of 10, rather you multiply it by number of times the expected damage occurs during the active phase of the power. With DPS you are trying to determine what is the best use of your limited activation time.
So if the expected damage of a proc is .2 (chance to active) *72 (the damage on activation) then per application its 14.4 a target and it occurs twice per activation the expected damage of that Proc per target per application is 28.8.
The cast time of freezing rain (Cast time is the relevant seconds being measured in DPS) is 2.03 Seconds so the DPS of the Proc is 14.187 per foe.
When facing Mobs of 5 foes we are getting an aggregate expected DPS 70.936 per Proc in freezing rain.
Perhaps the overkill is greater with the Proc and combats dont exceed 10 seconds in which case some of the 2nd applications are not realized. Still overkill is an issue with all powers, rarely are enemies defeated by 1 point. Even without the 2nd application of the Proc its viability for the use of a single slot is dramatically greater than what is being presented.
Quote:
Ah, I see. Your method is valid as far as it goes -- a stand-alone evaluation of how much damage the proc gives the power in question. Mine was simply a best-case presentation of what the proc adds in absolute terms (to your overall DPS) assuming you're casting Freezing rain every time it's available anyway. |
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
Firstly my issue is comparing the impact of adding a Proc in a power you will most certainly use, to the benefit of slots that may not be in the attack chain or a power that quantified in the same standard..(ie. non-attack powers.)
Beyond that the constraining factor in DPS calculations is activation time not recharge time. In so much as the 10 second cool down is a factor it is as a multiple of the damage done as compared to the powers length. Ie 1 application on cast, 2nd application on the 10 second mark. The S isnt seconds per power length its the Seconds of cast time used. Other wise powers which have no duration are infinity powerful. So no dividing by 10...you arent using those 10 seconds for Freezing rain you are doing other things like casting seeds, creepers, domination , what have you. So we need to compare the results of activation time. The time the toon consumes in activation of the power. |
Neither approach is wrong, per se. I believe mine gives you a good understanding of the practical cost-benefit ratio for adding a proc, though.
Quote:
| The initial Cast time is the limiting factor and the commodity being measured. DPS is measuring what the most efficient use of your cast time is. |
That's why I choose to look at the expected improvement to overall DPS, instead of the expected improvement to FR's DPA in a vacuum.
Quote:
| When facing Mobs of 5 foes we are getting an aggregate expected DPS 70.936 per Proc in freezing rain. |
Adding each target's damage together is a decent metric for determining, say, the endurance efficiency of an AoE attack (for instance, the breakpoint at which a given AoE attack is more efficient to use than a given single-target attack), but it's dangerous to go around saying that a power like Fireball delivers 16 * 150 = 2400 damage. You might give people the wrong idea. You might even give yourself the wrong idea.
Quote:
| Perhaps the overkill is greater with the Proc and combats dont exceed 10 seconds in which case some of the 2nd applications are not realized. Still overkill is an issue with all powers, rarely are enemies defeated by 1 point. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
Hey there folks. Quick question, and I think it's been answered before, but I can't recollect what the facts were.
Looking at storm summoning Freezing Rain. Noticed that it takes (accurate) defense debuffs.
So that suggests that I could stick in the Lady Grey Chance/Neg Dmg and Achilles Heel Procs into it.
Question is - when to the procs fire? On each target? On each damage tick? Or just on each use/click of the power?
Thanks for any assistance.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge