Freezing Rain and Procs
By
Dirges,
Posted on: 2010-12-01 21:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong (again |
Originally Posted by Obitus
And if we assume (generously) that Freezing Rain is cast every 15 seconds, then a typical proc adds (0.2 * 72) / 10 = 1.44 DPS to your build.
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), but this is part of what I was trying to get at in my first post. Continually casting Freezing Rain means the procs actually do (0.2 * 72) / 7.5 = 1.92. Not a huge improvement, of course, just a mild distinction. Because procs on psuedopets don't care about other psuedo pets. So in the "cast every 15 seconds" scenario, the proc checks at T0, the initial cast, T10, the pulse on rain 1, T15 the second cast, T25, rain 2 pulses, etc. So in every single 15 second window, the proc has checked/rolled twice, because of a cast and a 10 second pulse. 15/2 = 7.5.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
How you get from that to "never slot any AoE patch power with a damage proc" I don't know. Or are you saying you should always slot all possible procs into every patch power as priority without thinking about it? Of course you aren't because I don't read into arguments that are not there.
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So it's not a worthwhile use of slots to put a damage proc in Freezing Rain, it must not be to put one in Earthquake... that won't be up as often. It must not be a good idea to put it in Rain of Fire... because RoF benefits from damage IOs, has no -res, and no way KD to keep enemies clustered within it.
Really, you aren't reading into your OWN argument. Oedipus_Tex was just showing you where your line of thinking eventually leads.
Similarly, if a damage proc isn't worthwhile in a patch power that's up virtually all the time, then the only place that damage procs could possibly ever be worthwhile is (a) because they're contributing to a set bonus or (b) because the attack's recharge is less than 10 seconds, and it can be expected to hit as many targets as a patch would. (B) is extremely rare. So, your line of thinking would actually put the value of damage procs almost exclusively as pieces of sets, contributing set bonuses.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Quote:
Yes, you're right. Good catch.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
Correct me if I'm wrong (again
), but this is part of what I was trying to get at in my first post. Continually casting Freezing Rain means the procs actually do (0.2 * 72) / 7.5 = 1.92. Not a huge improvement, of course, just a mild distinction. Because procs on psuedopets don't care about other psuedo pets. So in the "cast every 15 seconds" scenario, the proc checks at T0, the initial cast, T10, the pulse on rain 1, T15 the second cast, T25, rain 2 pulses, etc. So in every single 15 second window, the proc has checked/rolled twice, because of a cast and a 10 second pulse. 15/2 = 7.5. |
Still and all, the cast-FR-every-15-seconds standard is very optimistic, because it would require you to have a recharge timer on FR of something like 12.75 seconds (the 15 second duration minus the Arcanatime-enhanced activation). More likely, you're looking at casting the thing every 20 seconds or so, in which case my previous number would apply.
By the way, that means that procs in Earthquake aren't necessarily available less often than procs in FR, as you went on to say. FR has to meet a 20-second total cycle time (recharge + cast), with a 60 second starting cooldown, in order to receive 1 proc check per slot per 10 second period. Earthquake has to meet a 30 second total cycle time (recharge + cast), with a 90 second startin cooldown.
They're basically in the same availability boat (except that Earthquake's activation is a little longer, IIRC) assuming a plausible and equivalent amount of global recharge.
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| Similarly, if a damage proc isn't worthwhile in a patch power that's up virtually all the time, then the only place that damage procs could possibly ever be worthwhile is (a) because they're contributing to a set bonus or (b) because the attack's recharge is less than 10 seconds, and it can be expected to hit as many targets as a patch would. (B) is extremely rare. So, your line of thinking would actually put the value of damage procs almost exclusively as pieces of sets, contributing set bonuses. |
A single proc in a spammed (for the sake of argument) Frostbite is worth two equivalent procs in Arctic Air, assuming you can get the cycle time on Frostbite below 5 seconds (which isn't terribly hard to do).
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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In "absolute terms" when looking at your damage per second you still dont divide the power by its cool down time because those 10 seconds arent consumed. The time is spent spent using any other and every other power you have. A snipe isnt generally a good DPS power not because of its recharge but because of its cast time. The only investment in time for the Proc you have made is the cast time. You've spent only 2 seconds(and change) activating power Freezing rain/sleet. This in no way limits what you are doing in second number 4 or 5 or 6.
In essence here is what is being presented (each - equals a half a second)
Sleet-------------------->Power b------> Power c---->
But this is whats happening activation wise:
Sleet---->Power b------> Power C---->
Your cant divide the Proc in Sleet power by its cool down and get a meaningful measure of DPS unless you are comparing the recharge duration of all powers. Nukes are huge boosts to DPS but not if you consider their recharge time. Still Half way through a fight if you wanted that encounter over quickly using a tier 9 blast is usually a pretty good option.
Even if you wanted to include all recharges you have to weight the First application of the Proc because it is instantaneous.
This story is an analogy of whats happening:
3 coeds are going on spring break the hotel they are at is $300 a night. They pay $100 each and go to their room. Once at the room they realize they had AAA discount and call to the front desk.
"Hey you didnt give us our a AAA discount!!!"
"Sorry... I'll send the bellhop up with your cash."
The manager gives the Bellhop $50 and tells him to give the refund to the Coeds. On the way to the room the bellhop figures the 3 girls cant split $50 evenly and so pockets $20 for his effort.
With the remaining $30 he gives $10 to each Coed. After receiving their ten dollar rebate each Coed paid ($100-$10) $90; the bell hop Stole $20.
$90*3 is $270 plus the $20 the bellhop stole is $290 where's the extra ten spot?
The answer is there is no extra money. Just like in the story we are adding extra variables to the equation and using that as a basis for comparison.
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I'm not dividing the power by its cooldown. I'm assuming that the power will be cast every time it's available regardless, and adding the extra over-time benefit of the proc to the character's total DPS.|
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
In "absolute terms" when looking at your damage per second you still dont divide the power by its cool down time because those 10 seconds arent consumed. The time is spent spent using any other and every other power you have. A snipe isnt generally a good DPS power not because of its recharge but because of its cast time. The only investment in time for the Proc you have made is the cast time. You've spent only 2 seconds(and change) activating power Freezing rain/sleet. This in no way limits what you are doing in second number 4 or 5 or 6.
In essence here is what is being presented (each - equals a half a second) Sleet-------------------->Power b------> Power c----> But this is whats happening activation wise: Sleet---->Power b------> Power C----> Your cant divide the Proc in Sleet power by its cool down and get a meaningful measure of DPS unless you are comparing the recharge duration of all powers. Nukes are huge boosts to DPS but not if you consider their recharge time. Still Half way through a fight if you wanted that encounter over quickly using a tier 9 blast is usually a pretty good option. |
Let's say you have a character, let's call her Stormy. Stormy's DPS is X including a cast of Freezing Rain every 20 seconds. Adding a proc to Freezing Rain can only add a static amount of damage given that she's casting FR anyway.
So in this case, Stormy's total DPS with the proc added to Freezing Rain is X + 1.44.
You're saying that we should calculate Freezing Rain's DPA (damage per activation) as if in a vacuum, with and without the proc. By that standard, you get a better result for the proc, but you're still only adding a patehtic amount of DPS to your overall chain.
It would be no different if we were talking about a given single-target attack in a contiguous attack chain. If I have two diferent proc-eligible powers in the same attack chain, and (for the sake of argument) one power has twice the activation time of the other, then which power should I put the proc into?
The answer is that I should put the proc into the power that is used more often per unit time, regardless of its activation time. If both powers are used with the same frequency, then there's no difference. If one power is used let's say twice as often as the other, then the proc adds twice as much to my total DPS.
The proc is a flat damage value, and thus its relation to the power's damage is irrelevant. Its relation to the power's activation time is also irrelevant except to the extent that shorter activation times tend to be better choices to spam. They are not always better to spam, though; the primary determinant is the DPA. If you could, for instance, spam KO Blow more often than Punch, you would do it because KO Blow has a higher damage per activation than Punch, even though Punch animates more than twice as fast.
You're misleading yourself by getting caught up in the cast time of Freezing Rain. The cast time is already being spent on Freezing Rain, with or without the proc.
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This story is an analogy of whats happening: 3 coeds are going on spring break the hotel they are at is $300 a night. They pay $100 each and go to their room. Once at the room they realize they had AAA discount and call to the front desk. [snipped for brevity] |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Granted in a great number of Powers damage Procs are not terribly helpful as a single Damage IO will outstrip those benefits. This isnt hard to figure out. The higher the base damage of a power the less appealing the Proc is compared to a Damage IO. However for powers whose primary function is Debuffing (toggles or click) the use of a damage Proc is a viable option in AOE's.
Invoking DPS (DPSA or DPSR or DPSS) without context however is somewhat misleading as the scales are vastly dissimilar in magnitudes but similar in term.
Oh yeah, an African swallow, maybe, but not a European swallow. That's my point.
What is the S in DPS?
Damage per Second of what? Its a relevant question.
Lets do a thought experiment. You cast sleet proc'ed and it goes off and the server crashes 1 second later.
For the Sleet Proc you have spent 2 seconds (plus change) whats the DPS for the Proc for last 3 seconds? Sleet (or freezing rain) was the only power you used so its fairly obvious.
Now say the server crashed in 10 seconds but in those 7 seconds you used 3 other powers. Has the damage per second of the Proc decreased? No it is what it is you probably couldnt have used it again but its damage per activation time hasnt changed.
The constraint in the operation is activation time. Activation time is the bottleneck. The objections to aggregate damage are valid points but more-so against the continuous stream DPS model as that quite literally aggregates and divides.
The "Extra variable" being installed is recharge time which isnt relevant unless you are optimized to have no tray time available for any power in your chain. (You use each to full effect exactly when it recharges.) Thats the standard to which the Proc is being held and it is artificially deflating its value.
Here's another build to examine. This is one possible future build for my Mind/Cold Controller. Now, I'm almost positive someone is going to come in and say the shields are underslotted and I can use more Recharge to get to perma-Hasten. Which are somewhat true. But what we need to keep in mind are:
1) This character will be slotting the Spiritual alpha for an eventual +30% recharge unaffected by ED, which I think will put Hasten at perma or very close to it
2) This character's main issue isn't keeping people alive, it's his rather low AoE damage due to lack of reliable AoE Containment. An extra 3-4% defense is useful but not worth it to me on a character with other issues, no pet, who can't soft cap others on his own by making the leap for the extra defense
I could also have slotted a second Recharge in Sleet, but with the Spiritual boost, it will eventually end up at ~19-17 seconds, which is good enough for what I need. What I'm desperately lacking is AoE damage.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Cold Reader Goal Build Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Mind Control
Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Primal Forces Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Levitate -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(15), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39)
Level 1: Infrigidate -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Dominate -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(5), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Ice Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 6: Confuse -- CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(7), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(7), CoPers-Conf(9), CoPers-Conf%(13), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(15)
Level 8: Mass Hypnosis -- FtnHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(A), FtnHyp-Plct%(9), FtnHyp-Acc/Rchg(17), FtnHyp-Sleep/Rchg(29), FtnHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(33)
Level 10: Glacial Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17), RechRdx-I(21)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48)
Level 16: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 18: Total Domination -- UbrkCons-Hold(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(19), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(19), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(23), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(25)
Level 20: Arctic Fog -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(21), RedFtn-EndRdx(23), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(25), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 22: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(40)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(50), LkGmblr-Def(50)
Level 26: Terrify -- Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(27), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Ragnrk-Knock%(31)
Level 28: Benumb -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 30: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(36), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(37), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(40), RedFtn-EndRdx(43), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 32: Mass Confusion -- Mlais-Acc/Rchg(A), Mlais-EndRdx/Conf(33), Mlais-Acc/EndRdx(33), Mlais-Conf/Rng(34), Mlais-Acc/Conf/Rchg(34), RechRdx(34)
Level 35: Sleet -- LdyGrey-%Dam(A), RechRdx-I(36), Achilles-ResDeb%(37), ImpSwft-Dam%(46), ShldBrk-%Dam(48), Posi-Dam%(50)
Level 38: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(39), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(40), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Power Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Energy Torrent -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dam%(45), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng(46)
Level 47: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Temp Invulnerability -- ResDam-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 0: Ninja Run
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Set Bonus Totals:
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 6% Defense(Smashing)
- 6% Defense(Lethal)
- 6% Defense(Fire)
- 6% Defense(Cold)
- 22.9% Defense(Energy)
- 22.9% Defense(Negative)
- 6% Defense(Psionic)
- 6% Defense(Melee)
- 28.5% Defense(Ranged)
- 6% Defense(AoE)
- 75% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 6.5% Enhancement(Confused)
- 85% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 12% FlySpeed
- 11.4 HP (1.13%) HitPoints
- 12% JumpHeight
- 12% JumpSpeed
- Knockback (Mag -4)
- Knockup (Mag -4)
- MezResist(Immobilize) 4.4%
- 28.5% (0.48 End/sec) Recovery
- 20% (0.85 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 11.7% Resistance(Fire)
- 11.7% Resistance(Cold)
- 12% RunSpeed
Code:
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I believe you are correct. Since pre-alpha slot it takes 110% global recharge to make Hasten perma, the extra 30% should contribute to that, making the "new" requirement 80%. With 3 level 50 recharge IOs, and considering the portion of the alpha which is affected by ED, it should be about 76%.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
1) This character will be slotting the Spiritual alpha for an eventual +30% recharge unaffected by ED, which I think will put Hasten at perma or very close to it
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I realize you're probably after Power Boost, but if you were willing to let that go it seems like Ice Mastery might be a better option. Ice Storm would stack with Sleet very well, and it has an AoE cone on top of that. I think that's as much AoE damage as you can get...
A damage proc in Terrify would be nice, too. There's no obvious slot to give up though.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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Thanks for validating. |
Originally Posted by Gilia
I believe you are correct. Since pre-alpha slot it takes 110% global recharge to make Hasten perma, the extra 30% should contribute to that, making the "new" requirement 80%. With 3 level 50 recharge IOs, and considering the portion of the alpha which is affected by ED, it should be about 76%.
I realize you're probably after Power Boost, but if you were willing to let that go it seems like Ice Mastery might be a better option. Ice Storm would stack with Sleet very well, and it has an AoE cone on top of that. I think that's as much AoE damage as you can get... A damage proc in Terrify would be nice, too. There's no obvious slot to give up though. |
Yep, it's mostly Power Boost I'm after, for inobvious reasons.
Mind Controllers don't have an AoE Immobilize to set Containment with. To compensate, when solo my opening move is to Power Boost, Mass Confuse, then use Total Domination. Power Boosted Total Domination has a duration of 48 seconds. That gives me lots of time to fire my two AoEs for double damage. Other Mind Controllers can use Mass Hypnosis, but I can't, because of the damage component in Sleet. If it's going to wake up enemies I might as well make sure it counts.
On teams I alternate back and forth between Mass Confuse and Total Dom for each mob. With their recharge, one or the other is up every 35 seconds or so on a cycle. I don't worry about Containment as much as there is usually a Controller or Dominator there to do it for me. Meanwhile Power Boost ensures what hits, lasts. +4 Enemies resist about 50% of a mezz's duration, so it's not quite as much overkill as it may seem at first.
The other part of the equation though is Energy Torrent. Energy Torrent on a Controller is knockdown, and turns out to be quite nice. When it fires, it has a 60% chance to bowl an enemy over. The reason this is important is during the time Mass Confusion and Total Domination are recharging my mainline "hold" is Terrify. The way this power works, enemies get a chance to shoot back or run each time you hit them. Unless... they are on their backs. By firing Energy Torrent instead of a standard AoE, 60% of the enemies who could fire back miss their chance to do so. Then when I follow up with Fearsome Stare, another 20% fall over due to the knockdown proc in Rangnarok. This is layered with Sleet's 5% chance to knockdown per pulse, so a significant number of enemies are bowled over.
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Damage per second. Period. Damage per unit time. |
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
What is the S in DPS?
Damage per Second of what? Its a relevant question. |
Again, you're caught up in an artificial distinction. The character's behavior doesn't change whether we slot the proc or not. The proc adds a flat amount of damage.
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| The constraint in the operation is activation time. Activation time is the bottleneck. The objections to aggregate damage are valid points but more-so against the continuous stream DPS model as that quite literally aggregates and divides. |
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| The "Extra variable" being installed is recharge time which isnt relevant unless you are optimized to have no tray time available for any power in your chain. (You use each to full effect exactly when it recharges.) |
Do you deny that the character casts Freezing Rain with the same frequency whether the proc is slotted or not?
Do you deny that a proc that's checked twice as often will yield twice the average damage?
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| Thats the standard to which the Proc is being held and it is artificially deflating its value. |
Damage procs are flat damage. If I have two attacks, one that delivers 50 base damage and another that delivers 100 base damage, then which is the better candidate for the damage proc?
That's a trick question. The answer is that there isn't enough information to decide. If the 100-pt attack is used more often, then adding the proc to that attack will yield more overall damage, despite that the proc represents a smaller proportion of the attack's own damage.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Ah, yes. My current main (and easily my toon with the most expensive build) is MC/Energy/Ice Dominator. I figured you had love for Power Boost because I wouldn't want to give it up and that's with perma-dom. For me, //Ice was the clear option because I was also seeking AoE damage. For Dominators, it has Sleet though.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Yep, it's mostly Power Boost I'm after, for inobvious reasons.
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That's awesome about Terrify + Energy Torrent though. You may already have the best set up for AoE damage with those sets then (w/o giving up your safety of course). If Sleet didn't have knockdown I'd have to try it!
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Quote:
So that fact that some sets have a high internal competition for slots does not count? That some powers have a high internal competition for slot does not count? Or are you arguing that slots in all patch powers are all equally useful?|
Originally Posted by Gilia
Correct me if I'm wrong (again
), but this is part of what I was trying to get at in my first post. Continually casting Freezing Rain means the procs actually do (0.2 * 72) / 7.5 = 1.92. Not a huge improvement, of course, just a mild distinction. Because procs on psuedopets don't care about other psuedo pets. So in the "cast every 15 seconds" scenario, the proc checks at T0, the initial cast, T10, the pulse on rain 1, T15 the second cast, T25, rain 2 pulses, etc. So in every single 15 second window, the proc has checked/rolled twice, because of a cast and a 10 second pulse. 15/2 = 7.5.Because if you claim that slotting Freezing Rain with damage procs is (virtually/almost/whatever) never a good idea, then you ARE saying it's never a good idea for any psuedopet/patch/rain powers. Because the damage value of such a proc in Freezing Rain is the same as it is in those other powers. Arguably, it's better! Because the damage is low enough that a Damage IO isn't going to do more damage over time, there's a -res to boost some of the procs' damage, and Freezing Rain is a patch you will try to put up all the time. So it's not a worthwhile use of slots to put a damage proc in Freezing Rain, it must not be to put one in Earthquake... that won't be up as often. It must not be a good idea to put it in Rain of Fire... because RoF benefits from damage IOs, has no -res, and no way KD to keep enemies clustered within it. Really, you aren't reading into your OWN argument. Oedipus_Tex was just showing you where your line of thinking eventually leads. Similarly, if a damage proc isn't worthwhile in a patch power that's up virtually all the time, then the only place that damage procs could possibly ever be worthwhile is (a) because they're contributing to a set bonus or (b) because the attack's recharge is less than 10 seconds, and it can be expected to hit as many targets as a patch would. (B) is extremely rare. So, your line of thinking would actually put the value of damage procs almost exclusively as pieces of sets, contributing set bonuses. |
How about instead of going slippery slope on me you actually stick to the argument I make? Instead of "logical progression" (ie we can exaggerate it so we can strawman).
Do you slot Tar Patch with damage procs? Pretty much no one does. Does that fact suddenly mean you don't slot Caltrops with damage procs?
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That makes a bit more sense than what you said originally.|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
So that fact that some sets have a high internal competition for slots does not count? That some powers have a high internal competition for slot does not count? Or are you arguing that slots in all patch powers are all equally useful?
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
It's not free it costs 4 slots. Nothing wrong with slotting procs in there if you have no where else to put them. Slotting 4 procs is only slightly better then slotting 2 procs and 2 damage IOs 59.72 damage (0.83 x 72) versus 51.33.
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
How about instead of going slippery slope on me you actually stick to the argument I make? Instead of "logical progression" (ie we can exaggerate it so we can strawman).
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
Relax, I regularly debate/argue about politics and religion. Compared to that this forum is tame.
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You set up the premises from which we responded... and we only responded with their immediate corollaries/conclusions. That's called Modus ponens. It's not a slipperly slope.
Similarly, a Strawman is when you claim someone is arguing something other than what they truly are and then attack it instead. Notice, however, that above I quoted you... verbatim, and not out of context.
What you're trying to do is similar to arguing that "all drugs are bad, because they are an improper use of resources and it's unethical to modify ourselves as organisms in nature." Then when someone says "well, what about Aspirin and antibiotics?" you turn around and say "now, I didn't say that! Of course you can still take Aspirin!"
The person who asked about Aspirin knew you were being inconsistent and called you out on it. Then you back pedaled. The only "logical fallacy" here is your own regress argument. You set up the premises to argue conclusion A, which also dictate conclusion B, then demand greater justification for conclusion B than your own.
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
Do you slot Tar Patch with damage procs? Pretty much no one does. Does that fact suddenly mean you don't slot Caltrops with damage procs?
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I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you actually meant me. Me, personally, I would not slot damage procs in Caltrops, but I might in Tar Patch. Tar Patch has a larger area, a -res, and will be up almost all the time.
According to what you said:
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
The most important aspect of slotting is opportunity cost. Virtually any IO you slot into any power will provide some benefit. The question is which one gives the largest boost to performance.
The most important aspect of damage is time. Since time is the only resource that is truly finite and can't be recouped after it has past. |
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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Oh really? So that fact that Caltrops can be double stacked with plain recharge IOs, last a full 45 seconds (giving 5 chances to proc over duration) and can be triple stacked without too much drama. Add to that /Traps tends to be much lighter on slot usage. |
Originally Posted by Gilia
Emphasis mine. You said that that placing procs was the last priority, that they should only be placed when you have no other use for the slots. Since Freezing Rain is one of the most intelligent places to put damage procs, you couldn't be sensible and still believe that other psuedopets were a high priority. You already declared procs lose the "internal competition." You can't claim that of Freezing Rain w/o claiming it of every single power which takes less advantage of the damage procs.
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You bolded part is a spoken by someone who has not used proctrops.
For Freezing Rain, with the high slot requirements in Storm/Cold has a low priority for damage procs. 2 chances to proc every 30 seconds isn't very good. If you pump the recharge you run into major slot crunch.
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| What you're trying to do is similar to arguing that "all drugs are bad, because they are an improper use of resources and it's unethical to modify ourselves as organisms in nature." Then when someone says "well, what about Aspirin and antibiotics?" you turn around and say "now, I didn't say that! Of course you can still take Aspirin!" |
Good to see you can use wikipedia for your definitions as well but how about you save the time and just link the definitions instead of having you regurgitate them?
I have said they are a low (lowest for slow recharging, short duration patches with high slot competition) for priority but I have said several times they are not bad. In fact the very build I link has damage procs in it. One isn't even giving a set bonus, it is taken purely for it's proc damage. Inconsistency! Or is it in specific situations procs increase in priority? No lets stick to blanket definitions!
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| You shouldn't put procs in either of them. Neither will contribute as much DPS as procs in Freezing Rain, so clearly there's some other place to get that damage from. |
Some of my other quotes:
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| If you have slots leftover then putting damage procs in Sleet is great but it's not a priority. |
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| Would a 15 second recharge Sleet really benefit from some damage procs? Hell yeah! I would love to do that. But I don't have any free slots. The same slots that would take damage procs are the same ones that bring my Sleet recharge down so that the procs would be so powerful. Bit of a Catch 22. |
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| In my experience with Sleet, I actually preferred the Range/Damage HOs (mostly because they're cheap and I like the range), a frankenslot Damage/Recharge, and Recharge. Achilles makes sense, but I wasn't terribly keen on any of the sets. |
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| Since Freezing Rain is one of the most intelligent places to put damage procs, you couldn't be sensible and still believe that other psuedopets were a high priority. |
Despite Freezing Rain being the 'bestest friend ever!' to damage procs you put higher priority onto alternate slotting. Just like I do.
I even mention slotting Freezing Rain power with damage IOs in one of my earlier posts. It works really well for Caltrops.
Oh, brother.
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I did quote you. Several times. Scroll up.|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
Just love it when other people tell you what you meant. "What you're trying to do is similar..." of course you use a metaphor because you don't have an actual quote to point to. Funny that.
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
Good to see you can use wikipedia for your definitions as well but how about you save the time and just link the definitions instead of having you regurgitate them?
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
Inconsistency! Or is it in specific situations procs increase in priority? No lets stick to blanket definitions!
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
If, in your opinion, Freezing Rain/Sleet it's the best possible place to slot damage procs why don't you do it? You even thought they procced more then they did (making them even better) and still didn't slot them.
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In my build mentioned, I tried to match Sleet to Ice Storm. Again, that's irrelevant. I never made any claims about the priority of damage procs. You did. My personal opinion and use of procs is based on a different set of qualifiers than yours. I haven't even shared them. No one asked. You, however, did share yours. I don't actually get how this is complicated.
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
I even mention slotting Freezing Rain power with damage IOs in one of my earlier posts. It works really well for Caltrops.
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Anyway, I am picking up on an unnecessary elevation in this disagreement. I apologize for the personal remark, but you appear to be unable to operate from a point of objectivity and at your current pace will turn solely to personal attacks. As such, I will just agree to disagree. For as is the case with anyone who is unable to face their own inconsistencies, there is absolutely nothing another person can do to try to persuade them otherwise.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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| For Freezing Rain, with the high slot requirements in Storm/Cold has a low priority for damage procs. 2 chances to proc every 30 seconds isn't very good. If you pump the recharge you run into major slot crunch. |
I still don't understand the frame of reference you are speaking in. The fact is, without a build in front of us, it's impossible to make blanket statements about what the optimal slotting of a power is. I wouldn't think anyone should ever slot Freezing Rain with 5 pieces from Positron's Blast, but I have seen that exact slotting on various builds because it accomplished something for that build. That is exactly why the suggestion of 4-slotting procs as a possibility came up--to quote myself, it is valuable "especially on some low damage Controllers and Defenders."
Secondly, Freezing Rain is not "2 chances to proc every 30 seconds." It's 2 chances to proc every time you cast the power, however far apart that is. On the Mind/Cold build I posted previously, this would be about twice every 18 seconds once I get my full Spiritual alpha slot built up, assuming I recast the power the instant it recharges. There isn't a "major slot crunch" precisely because the build and the alpha slot boost the recharge to the point that procs become optimal slotting for Freezing Rain within the context of this build. The other option is even more Recharge, which is optimal on builds that do a lot of AV fighting, because Freezing Rain/Sleet can stack on itself.
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| Wrong. As shown above Caltrops is actually superior (and I have and recommend procs in there on my MMs). So is Carrion Creepers as well with the Impeded Switftness proc. Lightning Storm with the Explosive Strike/Apocalypse damage proc since it bolt can hit multiple targets and it fires every 4 seconds. |
As for Lightning Storm, it appears to hit 5 targets every 4 seconds, but the targets have to be within a 5ft radius of each other. Proccing it is a good idea. I missed why Lightning Storm was brought up though. It is not directly comparable to Sleet in any way except that it is a power that accepts procs. I might as well compare Sleet to Jolting Chain or Stone Cages as far as that likeness goes.
RE: DPS v DPA. This is a very complicated topic and I hope I'm able to address it in a satisfactory manner. I'm not sure I entirely grasp all of the arguments put out there, but I'm pretty sure of one thing; all of us are right in one way and wrong in another, because I don't think we're all talking about the same things.
The first part I'll address is the "stream" model of damage. This model assumes that for any power, you can evaluate its damage as if it were a steady stream from you to an enemy. When the stream model is applied to Damage Per Activation (DPA), the assumption is "the power does X damage in a steady stream, at the cost of animation time Y." When the stream model is applied to Damage Per Recharge (DPR), the assumption is "the power does X damage in a steady stream, and can be used every Y seconds."
Both are relevant. Both are also abstractions. That's because damage almost never actually arrives in a steady stream. It arrives in defined, discrete amounts. And it turns out that more of it, up front and concentrated, is better than across time. DPA and DPR mask this. A power that animates in 1 second and does 100 points of damage is treated the same as a power that animates in 2 seconds and does 200 points of damage, just because both have a DPA of 100. (1/100 = 2/200 = 100). What we don't know is whether the first attack is actually a damage-over-time and the second front-loaded for damage so that it actually makes impact the instant the power is cast. Two powers, same DPA or DPR, different actual meanings.
Then we get to procs, and things really hit the fan.
You see, neither DPA or DPR handle chance very well. Both assume that damage flows as a constant, steady stream, like a perfectly defined flow of -HP that terminates at the conclusion of either animation time (with DPA) or recharge (with DPR).
When chance gets involved, most people handle it by multiplying damage by the proc's chances to fire. For example, it's assumed that if a proc has a 20% chance to fire and does 72 damage, that you can multiply 0.20 * 72 to get 14.4 as the "average" amount of damage added. Then its assumed you can look at how often the power is fired (mostly a feature of DPR but in terms of attack chains DPA as well) and how often the proc goes off in that time frame to get how much damage is added.
With Freezing Rain, for example, it's assumed that each proc adds 14.4 damage twice every 30 seconds (assuming that's how fast the power recharges for this character--again a function of DPR as presented here). Freezing Rain procs twice, so final damage added is thus assumed to be 14.4* 2 = 28.8. This is then divided by the Recharge time of 30 to get the assumed added DPR. We thus conclude the proc is adding just 28.8/30 = .96 damage per second, as a steady stream.
The problem with this? The odds of hitting any enemy for 28.8 damage with the proc are exactly 0%. That's because that's not what the proc actually does! It is a 20% chance for 72 damage, not a steady stream of 28.8 hit points. The damage is actually a range not a discreet value. And since we're applying this range to a target that only has a set number of hit points, it means there won't be enough rerolls for the system to normalize if the proc fires and kills the target before it "should" have died. Other times, the enemy will survive longer. What will never happen will be for the enemy to survive or die an "average" number of times.
The literal, logical, answer to "how much damage does slotting a proc in a power that is almost always active do?" is very straight forward but difficult to fully grasp. The damage is equal to a 20% chance for a little more damage than an Uncontained Controller hold, at no cost of extra DPR or DPA. That damage is instantaneous at the moment the proc fires, not delivered as a steady stream. And, assuming you can keep enough enemies in the area of effect, a significant number of times it should result in enemies who "should" still be alive according to standard DPA and DPR models dropping dead in front of you.
The short of it is, you cannot pretend a range of DPA or DPR is the same thing as a discrete amount of DPA or DPR and compare them directly. They are related, but they are NOT the same. The exception is when fighting enemies for such a long period of time that the chances normalize--Rikti pylon soloing for example.
A final note is that DPR is absolutely irrelevant on the first cast of a power. DPR is defined by recharge, so we can't count it against a power that isn't actually recharging! DPR is relevant in the long run though, as in Max's example of Caltrops. The fact that Caltrops can be layered does add to its overall damage potentional. It gets tricky though because the first wave of procs from Caltrops (2 procs max) is weaker than the first wave of procs from Freezing Rain (4 procs max), and Caltrops only matches Freezing Rain as time progresses. However, Freezing Rain already had a chance to deliver more up-front burst damage. But the point here really should be, no matter what the DPR of Freezing Rain is, if the power is already recharged when the battle starts, you can't look at the fact that it will take 30 or 18 or however many seconds to recharge after it's cast, and must address the fact that the proc damage dealt is either immediate or comes within 10 seconds. I sense this is the major source of disconnect among posters.
I hope that was well explained. Please understand I am not trying to throw the entire DPA and DPR models under the rug. They have their uses. But they are also often misapplied, as they are in this case when folks talk about the "average" damage they deal. "Average damage" is notoriously un-average once examined on an actual event scale.
[EDIT: Various edits to clarify meaning]
Good post, just a few points.
There is a reason why (as much as I love it) theorycraft has it limits. If you played with Caltrops you would know it can take PBAOE sets. Whether it's a bug or not it's been like that since forever. So you can put a Sirocco' Dervish damage proc in there. You may even be able to fit in Obliteration proc, Eradication proc and Armageddon proc too since they all PBAOE sets as well. I am not willing to respec to check (someone can check?).
So Caltrops can does have at least 3 potential procs (since one of my MMs is slotted like that) and a possible 6 (one of which is an improved purple proc).
One of the reasons I am dead keen on Traps for Controllers.
The problem with taking a proc at full value is that it won't always do it's full value. Apart from the obvious overkill (which is fairly rare) I am thinking more the 'inevitable kill' scenario.
So you are AOEing down a pack and there are half a dozen enemies left who are low on health and your next AoE will kill them. Say you get lucky and you get a few procs on previous AOE and kill half of them. So now you have 3 low health enemies left. You still have to cast you AoE (that you would of cast anyway without the procs) so what did the procs proccing actually gain you? A few enemies dead a second earlier then they would of normally been?
Strangely enough damage procs on single targets tend to minimize this possible shortfall since on single targets good proccing can actually 'save you' casting additional powers (DPA). Basically procs in AoE do up DPS but often don't up DPA because it the proc damage is sometimes ineffective. Procs in single target attacks tend to up both DPA and DPS.
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You are bound for disapointment then. That is just on masterminds, I just double checked on my corruptor and they can not slot PBAOE set's in caltrops. Since corruptor and controllers have similar buff/debuff numbers that would be the set that gets ported.
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There is a reason why (as much as I love it) theorycraft has it limits. If you played with Caltrops you would know it can take PBAOE sets. Whether it's a bug or not it's been like that since forever. So you can put a Sirocco' Dervish damage proc in there. You may even be able to fit in Obliteration proc, Eradication proc and Armageddon proc too since they all PBAOE sets as well. I am not willing to respec to check (someone can check?). So Caltrops can does have at least 3 potential procs (since one of my MMs is slotted like that) and a possible 6 (one of which is an improved purple proc). One of the reasons I am dead keen on Traps for Controllers. |
Dirges
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It does work that way on Corruptors. I didn't know it worked this way on Masterminds. That's a pretty outrageously overpowered bug. Which I will be sure to take full advantage of if I ever decide to play Masterminds. But I think we can assume Controllers will never be lucky enough to receive the set with that bug intact. |
Originally Posted by Max_zero
There is a reason why (as much as I love it) theorycraft has it limits. If you played with Caltrops you would know it can take PBAOE sets.
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The problem with taking a proc at full value is that it won't always do it's full value. So you are AOEing down a pack and there are half a dozen enemies left who are low on health and your next AoE will kill them. Say you get lucky and you get a few procs on previous AOE and kill half of them. So now you have 3 low health enemies left. You still have to cast you AoE (that you would of cast anyway without the procs) so what did the procs proccing actually gain you? A few enemies dead a second earlier then they would of normally been? |
Procs cast over a large number of enemies earlier in the fight.
When we talk about single target attacks, we don't fret about the enemies we are not attacking. Nor do we panic about pets picking their targets at random. But that's exactly what the AoE did earlier in the fight. Given the number of enemies available, we have some assurance that a few of them get pegged. Why are we so worried about the ones who didn't? Do all single target and pet attacks need to be evaluated against the targets they did not attack? While a high damage character with a full attack chain of AoEs may be able to ignore this, its far harder for a character with low damage and long interuptions between AoE cycles. Such is the case for the Mind/Cold character posted, with 8 second and 11 second recharges on each AoE damage power, one of them a cone that only hits 10 enemies max.
Killing enemies earlier is the entire point. You are always better off killing enemies faster. How much better off depends on the overall build. Especially because most cone attacks have a limit of 10 targets. And most low damage characters have single target chains that far outdamage their AoEs in terms of uptime, cycleability, and for some of them, endurance.
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| Strangely enough damage procs on single targets tend to minimize this possible shortfall since on single targets good proccing can actually 'save you' casting additional powers (DPA). Basically procs in AoE do up DPS but often don't up DPA because it the proc damage is sometimes ineffective. Procs in single target attacks tend to up both DPA and DPS. |
Assuming a chain (and ignoring -Resistance to make the math easy) and reverting to the averaging method I don't completely trust:
Total Domination (Containment) >>
Sleet (72 *.83 = ~60)* >>
Energy Torrent (135 x 2 = 270) >>
Terrify (61.3 x2 = ~122)
TOTAL = 452
DAMAGE INCREASE = ~13% on the opening attack chain
Or during times when Total Dom isn't up:
Sleet (72 *.83 = ~60)* >>
Energy Torrent (135) >>
Terrify (~61)
TOTAL = 256
DAMAGE INCREASE = ~23% on the opening attack chain
The only way DPA could not have increase in either situation is if Sleet was determined to not worth being part of the chain. But we'll be casting Sleet whether its procced or not. DPA can only increase.
*NOTE: Damage estimates from procced Sleet underestimate damage by evaluating only enemies hit by nothing or excatly 1 proc. Enemies hit by 2, 3, or more procs are not included in the estimate.
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Quoting myself, because this is something I want to highlight. A lot of people would look at these damage numbers and conclude Energy Torrent does much better damage than Terrify. It does. But it depends on how you look at it.|
Energy Torrent (135 x 2 = 270) >> Terrify (61.3 x2 = ~122) |
Energy Torrent can only hit 10 enemies. Terrify can hit 16. If we apply the rules some advocate we must always use for procs, Energy Torrent's actual damage fired into a crowd of 16 should actually be:
270 x ( 10/16 ) = 168
That's still better than Terrify, but not nearly as much as it appeared previously. But no one would ever count this against Energy Torrent's damage, or insist we always divide its damage by the percentage of targets it can't hit in order to compare it to other powers. Should we? Probably more often than we do.
But the flipside is true for procs. Many folks want to multiply the proc's damage by its activation chance to determine its "average" damage. That result of that calculation isn't completely irrelevant. However, it is also not the whole picture, nor can it be directly compared to static sources of damage without recognizing that one represents a range and the other fixed number.
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Well they had enough AoE to get them down that far. Unless the procs themselves start saving you casts all you get is a very small marginal faster kill time on individual mobs. Yes killing mobs faster is always good but in general characters tend to dish out a lot more damage then they take. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
This scenario sounds articificial to me. Mainly because if the low damage characters we were talking about HAD an AoE to cast that would do sufficient damage to kill all of the remaining enemies in one shot, they would do it. But they don't. |
An example:
When AoEing, most enemies don't take a huge amount of AoEs to kill (not to many people would attack a large group of powerful enemies recklessly).
12 Enemies
1st AoE- down to 66% health
2 procs- 2 enemies down to 33%
2nd AoE- down to 33% health, 2 low health enemies die
2 procs kill 2 enemies
3rd AoE- kill the last 8
Single targets tend to involve more attacks (since you tend to use single target on harder targets).
If your beating on a AV you may be casting your ST Immo, Hold, AP ST power many times.
For example to have some form of decent single target I often put a Armageddon proc in the ST root. Most single target roots hit for 100-110 (with damage slotting and containment) so each Armageddon proc just about saves me a single cast. (since i'm getting effectively double damage 1/3 of time) There tends to be far less overkill and 'wasted' procs.
This 'practical' example does not get covered in the math.
I guess my view is slanted because my main character has extremely strong AoE but in single target is quite weak (unless in certain circumstances). So procs for that character AoE tend to take a back set for procs that help single target. Add to that once he gets the lvl 4 alpha slot he will be pushing awful close to the recharge cap with FF procs with certain powers. While this may seem like a specific case, I suspect many (obviously I can't read minds this in an opinion) trollers (unless Mind or Ill) probably notice how lackluster their single target damage can be compared to AoE.
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That was actually my problem with the example. It would be the exception rather than the rule for me to find myself facing 6 enemies I could kill with exactly one final AoE, and be completely done with the encounter. |
Originally Posted by Max_zero
Well they had enough AoE to get them down that far. Unless the procs themselves start saving you casts all you get is a very small marginal faster kill time on individual mobs. Yes killing mobs faster is always good but in general characters tend to dish out a lot more damage then they take.
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When AoEing, most enemies don't take a huge amount of AoEs to kill (not to many people would attack a large group of powerful enemies recklessly). 12 Enemies 1st AoE- down to 66% health 2 procs- 2 enemies down to 33% 2nd AoE- down to 33% health, 2 low health enemies die 2 procs kill 2 enemies 3rd AoE- kill the last 8 |
In terms of cranking out the AoEs back-to-back, Plant Control can sort of do it, and Fire Control gets AoE equivalent damage from Hot Feet. The rest of the sets would probably be forced to wait out the recharge between AoE 2 and 3 unless they happen to have a /Storm secondary or took both AoEs from the Ice APP. That's assuming we can call a power like Frostbite or Stone Cages an AoE. Stone Cages does deliver decent-ish damage--but it's usually due to procs. Meanwhile, all sets except Mind Control are likely to have a pet out, dealing what is more or less single target damage to random targets in the same fashion the procs in Freezing Rain basically function. The difference is that pets eventually focus-fire on the few remaining enemies left over as the fight winds down, and procs do not.
We also have to consider that many sets have also thrown a Confusion power in there. This virtually guarantees the enemies will have uneven hit point levels as the fight progresses.
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| For example to have some form of decent single target I often put a Armageddon proc in the ST root. Most single target roots hit for 100-110 (with damage slotting and containment) so each Armageddon proc just about saves me a single cast. (since i'm getting effectively double damage 1/3 of time) There tends to be far less overkill and 'wasted' procs. |
There really is no such thing as a "wasted" proc. There is no cost for using a proc. If it happens to fire when the enemy is low on HP but the enemy would have died anyway, you are no worse for wear. If it happens to proc and actually kill the enemy, it can only put you in a better position. If overkill were a major issue, the Corruptor Scourge ability, which mostly works when enemies are low on HP, would be a lot worse than it is. As it turns out, this argument sometimes comes up on the boards, but I won't dig into that within this discussion.
In terms of procs Sleet and Freezing Rain are exactly identical* to any AoE patch power. Are you also claiming you should never put a proc in Caltrops? In Arctic Air? In Earthquake? In any standard AoE with a recharge longer than 10 seconds? That is really quite a substantial claim and not limited to Sleet or Freezing Rain in its scope. Putting a damage proc in any power that you were planning to keep up during the entire fight has exactly the same effect as slotting it in Sleet.
*Almost exactly identical. Some powers have no ToHit check.
Actually it's not identical since the opportunity costs, recharge times, durations all play a part. So powers have a lot of competition for their slots (such as Sleet/Freezing Rain). Some do not have that competition or access to as many IO pools. Or are you saying slots in all Patch powers are equally valuable?
Add to that the power sets themselves can have an effect. Cold, Storm and Dark are some of the power sets that tend to be very slots heavy. Cold can easily justify 6 slots in Heat Loss, Arctic Fog and Sleet with both shields being possible set mules. Storm and Dark are even worse. How many powers do you 6 slot in Kinetic?
My point during this whole thread is you have to think about what you use your slots for. IMO 2 chances to proc in a AoE power once every 30 seconds (where most people have their Sleet/Freezing Rain at) isn't a particularity good deal. I have my Sleet down to 15 seconds. That cost slots and they had to come from somewhere. Would a 15 second recharge Sleet really benefit from some damage procs? Hell yeah! I would love to do that. But I don't have any free slots. The same slots that would take damage procs are the same ones that bring my Sleet recharge down so that the procs would be so powerful. Bit of a Catch 22.