Punktastik guide to SB (sarcasm inherent)


ArchGemini

 

Posted

SB is a much debated power. Awesome? Yes. A must have for a kin? Yes. But the much debated question: Are you a jerk for not using it? Let's delve in

Lowbies: Most lowbies have end issues. Most lowbies have recharge issues. If you find yourself on a low level team, yes, SB as much as you can, as steadily as you can. People will laud you. There will be much rejoicing.

Crappy high level teams: The end is less of an issue, but still, SB alot. Same rules apply.

Decent plow teams: I would say there's no reason not to. You're all together, it's easy to select one team member after another and do a round of SB's. If the toons aren't so tricked out that their speeding and cannonballing around, chances are they can use a bit more recharge. I'd say gaps in SB are easily acceptable, but still a good policy to keep up the buffs

Speedball: Here's where my rant starts. If you're on a superspeed, 30 minute ITF, and everyone is all over the map, chances are any one person won't be SB'd for more than 2-4 minutes of the whole mission. Once the team gathers up, like on the EB mob, or the computer, or at the last mission, SB becomes maintainable. But after someone made an asinine comment about me not doing my job because they hadn't gotten SB for the entire sybil mission, I decided not to touch my SB button at all. Turns out, a lack of SB does not cause fails. In fact, it doesn't even affect you much at all. A bunch of tricked out toons getting FS/SP pulled it off in 31 minutes without SB. Why? Because once you finish a toon and get em to the point where they can solo reliably on task forces, you don't have much in the way of end problems or a lack of recharge, unless you suck at building a toon.
So here's my strategy on these teams. I use my primary powers and throw out a bunch of fireballs and FS, doing damage and buffing damage all over. Screw SB, because you can't keep it up when everyone is scattered, and when everyone is soloing they clearly don't really need it. And then when the team is gathered, I'll throw one out to each member. And when someone says, "SB please," I'll go ahead and give em some extra, because what that says to me is, "Hey, I could use a bit more recharge to hit perma PA/Perma Dom/(insert other useful power here), not "I can solo cysts, but you're ruining this TF because my [Midnight Grasp] isn't charging fast enough, do your job." If a kin doesn't have [Increase Density], it doesn't necessarily mean they're a noob, they might have just built their kin for attack and needed the powerslot. Take that into account and let someone play THEIR toon how they want, especially if it's a firekin that's keeping themselves at damage cap and doing massive damage to entire mobs and is built for a little more attack then support. Enjoy the fact that you've got a 200% damage modifier and shut your mouth.

I really wish I had increase density so I could spam it on people who cry too much because they didn't build enough endurance reduction or recharge into their speed run toon. In fact, I may just find room for it.


 

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man, butthurt much?


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<---- Shrugs off most anything. Just not this time.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyrene View Post
man, butthurt much?
He raises a decent point; people who b*tch about not getting SB are usually jerks who think their toon is priority. I've been kicked for not giving 'consistent' SB and I've kicked people for repeatedly spamming "SB plz SB plz SB plz SB plz SB plz".


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Posted

I actually like when someone asks. Alot of the time I'll specify at the beginning that they can ask (politely) for SB if it wears off.
I once brought up the fact that (just imagine for a second that it is real) in a real team fight, communication is one of the most important factors in a victory. I was told that I'm stupid, and it's up to the buffer to take care of all his own buffing or he sucks at it. Granted, some people are better than others at just knowing where their powers should be placed, but for others who aren't as good at playing buffers, (I will admittedly put myself in this group, but ya know what, deal with it, I'll play what I enjoy playing with and get better by doing so) there's nothing wrong with the team communicating and throwing out a reminder that their SB/Fort/AB is gone.
My scrapper has alot of recharge. He has a three attack chain, and is soft capped. If I really want to, I can kick back and watch a movie, and then <next target> <autofollow> <1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3> until dead. <next target> <autofollow> etc etc, until mob is dead. I don't even have to watch the screen. For a toon as incredibly low maintenance as that, ya know what? I can look at my own buffs, and give a friendly reminder to the defender that my buff is gone. And I won't feel the least bit like I'm inconvenienced by the fact that I made the high-maintenance support toon's life a little easier.
Look up "team" in the dictionary. I'm sure there's gonna be some form of the word "cooperation" in the definition.


 

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Just to clarify, most "real" damage dealing characters make a laughing stock of the Fire/Kin character once they are hit with the +Recharge and +Damage he or she provides. A lot of Fire/Kins never come to understand this and try to act like the superstar they are on a solo farm. I can see why, on a team that's speedrunning so fast that its hard to keep people in Range, Speed Boost might drop. But in most general situations the teamed Fire/Kin's priorities should be support first and damage second--in particular keeping recharge and damage in top form on the people who actually specialize in high damage. +300% or more damage means a LOT more on a character with base damage values higher than the Controller's.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elimist View Post
I actually like when someone asks. Alot of the time I'll specify at the beginning that they can ask (politely) for SB if it wears off.
Haha, one time, when the kin was all haughty with "I will only give SB to people who ask for it", I whispered to everyone to make a macro button to say "SB PLZ" and to click repeatedly when they needed it.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elimist View Post
Speedball: Here's where my rant starts. If you're on a superspeed, 30 minute ITF, and everyone is all over the map, chances are any one person won't be SB'd for more than 2-4 minutes of the whole mission. Once the team gathers up, like on the EB mob, or the computer, or at the last mission, SB becomes maintainable. But after someone made an asinine comment about me not doing my job because they hadn't gotten SB for the entire sybil mission, I decided not to touch my SB button at all. Turns out, a lack of SB does not cause fails. In fact, it doesn't even affect you much at all. A bunch of tricked out toons getting FS/SP pulled it off in 31 minutes without SB. Why? Because once you finish a toon and get em to the point where they can solo reliably on task forces, you don't have much in the way of end problems or a lack of recharge, unless you suck at building a toon.
So here's my strategy on these teams. I use my primary powers and throw out a bunch of fireballs and FS, doing damage and buffing damage all over. Screw SB, because you can't keep it up when everyone is scattered, and when everyone is soloing they clearly don't really need it. And then when the team is gathered, I'll throw one out to each member. And when someone says, "SB please," I'll go ahead and give em some extra, because what that says to me is, "Hey, I could use a bit more recharge to hit perma PA/Perma Dom/(insert other useful power here), not "I can solo cysts, but you're ruining this TF because my [Midnight Grasp] isn't charging fast enough, do your job." If a kin doesn't have [Increase Density], it doesn't necessarily mean they're a noob, they might have just built their kin for attack and needed the powerslot. Take that into account and let someone play THEIR toon how they want, especially if it's a firekin that's keeping themselves at damage cap and doing massive damage to entire mobs and is built for a little more attack then support. Enjoy the fact that you've got a 200% damage modifier and shut your mouth.

I really wish I had increase density so I could spam it on people who cry too much because they didn't build enough endurance reduction or recharge into their speed run toon. In fact, I may just find room for it.
1) SB is not AM. The entire team doesn't need to be gathered for you to use it.
2) If you can't keep up with people on super fast teams (and 30 minute ITF isnt /that/ fast), maybe you should try teaming with people who go at a bit slower/more steady pace so that you can kin more effectively until you are more comfortable with the set.
3)On large teams fire/kin trollers are more about controls and buffs than damage, if you are forgetting that you are hindering the team more than the people whining for SB are.


 

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My policy tends to be, if you want to run off and solo the map, you don't get buffs, simply because I've died all too often trying to buff those people while they run around, not caring what agros anyone that attempts to help them. If you're with the team, and fight as a team, I'll do my best to buff you. And if the solo'er happens to be with the team, I might toss them something, but again I'm not going to try to follow them to offer any help.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler View Post
That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it.

Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with.

 

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Originally Posted by Ideon View Post
Haha, one time, when the kin was all haughty with "I will only give SB to people who ask for it", I whispered to everyone to make a macro button to say "SB PLZ" and to click repeatedly when they needed it.

Comfortable with that. If I'm busy spamming heals to keep myself or another alive, or I see a good spot for FS, I'll get to you when I get to you, but thanks for reminding me.


 

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Originally Posted by Come Undone View Post
My policy tends to be, if you want to run off and solo the map, you don't get buffs, simply because I've died all too often trying to buff those people while they run around, not caring what agros anyone that attempts to help them. If you're with the team, and fight as a team, I'll do my best to buff you. And if the solo'er happens to be with the team, I might toss them something, but again I'm not going to try to follow them to offer any help.

Smart. When I'm on my scrapper, I'm cannonballing, almost exclusively. If nobody says what the tactics are, even when I ask, I'll just speed, whatever anyone else does. I usually don't even want to bring it to plows unless I'm lazy and want an easy toon to survive on, because it's all single target damage. Point is, I'm running ahead. I'm taking out cysts. I'm freeing sybils. I'm knocking out security chiefs. I'm on my own. I'll hang back and fight with the team if I'm told that's what we're doing, but I think speeds are enjoyable. Every time a kin or some other buffer runs up to me and dies, I just laugh and tell them not to try to "rescue" me. Sometimes my health hovers at 10% in the middle of a mob because I'll take an unlucky hit, and my siphon life is slowly bringing me back as I spam it. Healers and buffers who don't make the smart decision and say, "I'll TP you if you die," who come up and kill themselves "defending" me, get themselves killed, I don't have to do it for em. The same goes for buffers that try to chase after me. Don't bother. If I run away from the buffer, I don't get buffs, too bad. I have soul drain, and I don't even notice I have SB when I'm using my attack chain, that's how good my recharge is. A kin is nice, but I don't need it. So, by all means, don't bother. If you want the buff, follow the buffer. If you're a buffer, follow the tank. Or try to run around passing out buffs if you want. But as far as I'm concerned, the buffs you give probably are gonna be scattered around. helpful, but not necessary. Every high end task force, even speeds, are going to have points where the team consolodates. An EB mob. An AV. A room with huge spawns. Ambushes around Reichsman.
Guess what buffers. All those buffs you gave during the cannonball missions? Assuming the whole team is on speed toons and doesn't "need" your buffs, you probably shaved 5 minutes of the TF with your presence. Congratulations. But I'll also admit that when my scrapper stops at an AV that there's no way I could solo, and suddenly I've got 2 FS's stacked, SB, SP, Rad debuffs on the AV, and an entire team's worth of effects on it, and suddenly I can see the AV's health jumping down a little, but noticeably, every time I hit a Midnight Grasp, that's magic. Hats off to the buffers. You're great, and the ones that can stay alive in a mob and keep the buffs and debuffs coming strong. That AV we just killed in 30 seconds probably would have taken 5 scrappers 10 minutes to kill, plus the time it takes to get back to him from the teamwipe because scrappers just ain't tanks. I've been on teams that were all good toons in their own right, but we just didn't bring what we should have, and we worked on the last AV for 15 minutes. I'll be the first to admit that I'm shaky on my kin defender. But on my firekin, I'm doin just fine. It does just exactly what I'm askin it to, and mobs are definitely droppin around me. I built it how I like, and I'll play it how I like. It doesn't have inertial reduction for a reason. Because it has fireball.


 

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SB is an awesome team buff. SB is a pain to have to keep applying. However, it I want the team to do better, I signed up for the "pain" when I made a Kinetics character and joined a team.

I set up my SB binds on the keypad and run down the list whenever there is a break in the action. If somebody ran off when I happen to be able to apply the buffs, oh well -- I'm not going to chase them down except in rare circumstances. I'm a controller first and a buffer second, but buffing is an important part of the job.

I do my best, but have no problem being reminded as I don't play a Kin all that often. I only get bothered by somebody obnoxious. I have IR, but don't bother with it most of the time, unless I see a need. I don't make "rules" unless somebody is getting out of line. I do my best to skip anyone who has asked for no SB, but no promises.

And if they don't like the way I play my Kin, they can kick me . . . or I'll just leave. I'll find something else to do. And that's pretty much what I expect from others.


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I dont even bother with it being in my build on my controllers anymore since it doesnt work on pets anymore for the recharge portion. When I did have it I forced it on everyone whether you want it or not. Not wanting to accept speed boost is the equivalent of you intentionally wanting to slow down xp for the rest of the team.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elimist View Post
SB is a much debated power. Awesome? Yes. A must have for a kin? Yes.
I don't even consider it a must have. In fact, I don't have it on any of my Kin's anymore. I dropped it like a bad habit after one too many mixed teams. Half the team demanding SB even when it hasn't worn off yet, the other half screaming bloody murder if it gets applied to them.
No thanks. I refuse to let such a small aspect of my powers become all that I'm worth.

If the team is hurting that badly, well the problem isn't my lack of SB...
I gladly leave any team that moans when they see I don't have it.
I'll take my Fulcrum and go somewhere I'll actually be appreciated.

YmmV


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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius View Post
I don't even consider it a must have. In fact, I don't have it on any of my Kin's anymore. I dropped it like a bad habit after one too many mixed teams. Half the team demanding SB even when it hasn't worn off yet, the other half screaming bloody murder if it gets applied to them.
No thanks. I refuse to let such a small aspect of my powers become all that I'm worth.

If the team is hurting that badly, well the problem isn't my lack of SB...
I gladly leave any team that moans when they see I don't have it.
I'll take my Fulcrum and go somewhere I'll actually be appreciated.

YmmV
Bad players aside, SB is one of the very best buffs you can give to a team to help them complete missions faster and better. My personal opinion is that if you don't want to SB the team, you should either play solo or pick another secondary. I feel that skipping SB is a very selfish choice by someone who isn't looking out for the best interests of the team over himself.

If I'm leading a team with a Kin who won't (or can't because he/she didn't take the power) SB the team, I may not kick the character (because I really think it is rude), but I will make a note and probably never team with that character again.

If you don't want to take it, that's fine. But don't expect me to want to team with you.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Local_Man View Post
Bad players aside, SB is one of the very best buffs you can give to a team to help them complete missions faster and better. My personal opinion is that if you don't want to SB the team, you should either play solo or pick another secondary. I feel that skipping SB is a very selfish choice by someone who isn't looking out for the best interests of the team over himself.

If I'm leading a team with a Kin who won't (or can't because he/she didn't take the power) SB the team, I may not kick the character (because I really think it is rude), but I will make a note and probably never team with that character again.

If you don't want to take it, that's fine. But don't expect me to want to team with you.
Once again, Local Man pretty well sums up my thoughts. If I do not want to bubble the team in both bubbles, I should not play my Force Field heroes. If I do not want to SB the team, I should not play my Kin. As he said before, it is simple enough to bind to your Number Pad and just run 1-8 as needed to buff the team.

The big issue here, as I see it, is what to do when the team scatters and individuals who have run ahead and are separated from the Kin start to demand SB. Well, that way lies madness. If I can't see you, I cannot SB you, plain and simple. If one person is entitled to Valet Service wherever they happen to be, then all are, and there is no way to SB 7 separated teammates. If the team has a Stone Tank, I will in their neck of the woods for sure, but if you also want it, hang where I can see you and buff you.

Fortunately, I have not encountered kick-happy leaders who punt at the drop of a hat, and like Local Man, I am not one myself. If I can see you, I will SB you. If you have run out, I do not mind a "SB plz," assuming that is not on Autofire. And as a corollary, I will NOT SB anyone that requests a pass; it is not Cod Liver Oil that you will take whether you like it or not.

*gets kicked from team*

It is a game, folks.


"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"

"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."

 

Posted

When I'm running one of my Kins I try and include Speed Boost in the queue as needed, though I'm not always perfect. This includes my Fire/Kin trying to spam it as often as "needed". I also tend to stay with the "pack" in those toons.

What does drive me nuts;

The instant they see the SB icon start to blink it's "SB plz!" Like they're addicted to it.

When you've just done a round of speed boost and someone who's not paying attention calls for SB plz! (Uhm, dude, you've already been SB'd).

A call for SB plz! from someone who's not with the group. (If you're nowhere near the main team, I'm not hunting your **** down!)

When there's more then one Kin on the team and they never SB me.
I do try and forewarn the team that I'll do my best to SB folks, but if you're not near the rest of the team you're on your own. I don't mind the occasional reminder if I'm not on top of it, but when it becomes an every 1:90 second call for "SB plz!" before the buff has worn off, yikes.


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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Local_Man View Post
Bad players aside, SB is one of the very best buffs you can give to a team to help them complete missions faster and better. My personal opinion is that if you don't want to SB the team, you should either play solo or pick another secondary. I feel that skipping SB is a very selfish choice by someone who isn't looking out for the best interests of the team over himself.

If I'm leading a team with a Kin who won't (or can't because he/she didn't take the power) SB the team, I may not kick the character (because I really think it is rude), but I will make a note and probably never team with that character again.

If you don't want to take it, that's fine. But don't expect me to want to team with you.
I wouldn't expect you to, I wouldn't be bothered by leaving either since we're all here to have fun.
I don't mind the application of it. I have a Force Fielder that is even more 'buff-bot' than Kin's can ever be.

What got me to the breaking point was the fact that I found myself no longer enjoying a toon I'd grown to love. I'd spent a great deal of effort on the look and backstory, took care to slot my powers properly, yet none of that mattered to the teams. The moment they noticed I'm a Kin I became nothing more than the crack dealer, even getting strife for using my debuff attacks like Irradiate. At 1st I'd argue with the team, eventually I just gave up and realized I'd be a scapegoat anytime the team faceplants...
"Because SB woulda saved us!"


Might not be as bad these days, but 3 years ago, yeesh.


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Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down View Post
When I'm running one of my Kins I try and include Speed Boost in the queue as needed, though I'm not always perfect. This includes my Fire/Kin trying to spam it as often as "needed". I also tend to stay with the "pack" in those toons.

What does drive me nuts;
The instant they see the SB icon start to blink it's "SB plz!" Like they're addicted to it.

When you've just done a round of speed boost and someone who's not paying attention calls for SB plz! (Uhm, dude, you've already been SB'd).

A call for SB plz! from someone who's not with the group. (If you're nowhere near the main team, I'm not hunting your **** down!)

When there's more then one Kin on the team and they never SB me.
I do try and forewarn the team that I'll do my best to SB folks, but if you're not near the rest of the team you're on your own. I don't mind the occasional reminder if I'm not on top of it, but when it becomes an every 1:90 second call for "SB plz!" before the buff has worn off, yikes.
Valid complaints . . . but I don't see this today nearly as much as we used to see it. On my 4 Kins (2 Defenders, 2 Controllers), I have a macro set up explaining that I'll do my best to keep folks SB'ed, and I'm not offended by a reasonable and polite request if I fall behind. However, repeated rude requests will be met with a boycot of that player or, if it is really bad, me quitting the team. If the teammate runs off and misses out on SB, oh well.

Since I wrote that little macro, I have had almost no rude "SB plz" spammers and no situations where I felt I needed to quit the team. Communications goes a long way to fix problems. Unfortunately, that can't fix the "forgetful teammate" situation.


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When I run my 50 kin/sonic on a team it goes like this:

1: Tank runs in
2: I run in and-
a:Transfusion (if needed)
b:Fulcrum Shift
c:Power Siphon (maybe)
d:Transference
e:back up and Howl (unless unneeded)
f:Speed Boost down the list (if it's time)

If you aren't in range at that point then where were you for Fulcrum Shift and Transference? Did you leave that fast, really?

If you miss SB you will wait until next time unless there's a really good reason.


 

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I did this once with an alt build on mine for people who compalin about not getting SB.

1. 3 slot that bad boy with run speed and make sure to use it in cavern maps
2. ?
3. laugh when they complain
4. profit!


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Local_Man View Post
I'm a controller first and a buffer second

I lol at this, because someone actually said to me, "You're not here for your primary set, do your job," when I said this.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
the teamed Fire/Kin's priorities should be support first and damage second--in particular keeping recharge and damage in top form on the people who actually specialize in high damage. +300% or more damage means a LOT more on a character with base damage values higher than the Controller's.
fire/kin = controller. Fire control = a little less solid control in exchange for some more damage.
Primary set = control + decent damage
Secondary set = buffs

Sure, the firekin isn't going to do the same damage as the broadsword scrapper, but if he's juggling his holds, fulcrum shift, and fireball to hold and kill the enemies before they can kill him, so he can stay alive long enough to SB when he gets the chance, Leave him alone. Control + Damage in lieu of buffs in order to keep your own toon from lying facedown on the ground is a viable tactic if that's what your toon needs to stay alive. If there's one single power that does the least to keep my own firekin alive, it's speed boost. Unless I use it on the emp.

Kin defender - attacks suck, better off drawing no aggro by not attacking and doing more good buffing
Firekin troller neglecting holds and damage - dead, doing no good whatsoever because you can't SB when dead.
Firekin troller keeping himself alive - Balance of holds/damage/buffs, mitigation/clearing mobs/boosting the team. Hmm, isn't this a pretty good addition to a team?


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medic_brietz View Post
I did this once with an alt build on mine for people who compalin about not getting SB.

1. 3 slot that bad boy with run speed and make sure to use it in cavern maps
2. ?
3. laugh when they complain
4. profit!
HAHAHAHAHA! I actually did that! I had a concept toon speedster on Virtue who felt that if you werent moving at the speed cap you werent doing it right! (keeping superspeed on all the time even indoors. painful to play sometimes but a fun concept to try) And so I had SB 6 slotted with end mod and run speed and would hit people with it that I felt were moving too slowly.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elimist View Post
I lol at this, because someone actually said to me, "You're not here for your primary set, do your job," when I said this.
The one time somebody said that kind of thing to me (in team chat), my response was something like, "If you don't like the way I handle my character, then I'll be happy to quit and you can find somebody else."

The rest of the team told the complainer to shut up and asked me to stay.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control