Kinetics is a frustrating set. You have to beg people to enable you to use your powers well (how many times have you gotten a Blaster to stay in range for a Transferrence after their blast instead of running away from the half-dead boss they hit?), the single target buffs themselves are tedious, and people don't necessarily even appreciate them (I've had so many people use a Break Free a few seconds after I've hit them with ID even though the mez is broken, not to mention they don't realize it's actually a solid resist power).
In spite of how frustrating it can be, I think it's safe to say that Speed Boost is generally a more powerful buff than Fulcrum Shift on all but the most melee heavy of teams, and it's not unreasonable for people to get upset if you refuse to use it. Expecting 100% uptime is completely outrageous, but I really do feel that a kin who refuses to use SB should probably roll a powerset they're not so sick of that they won't play it well.
The constant "SB Meh" is why I primarily play my Fire/Kin solo. I didnt make the character to be a buffer, he's made to put out damage. If someone actually needs it, like a stone tanker, I'm more than happy to.
As far as my other toons, I could care less whether they're speed boosted by a kin on the team. It's nice, but not a necessity.
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I find it funny that people will commend you more on keeping up SB than when you are keeping the team running at damage cap through an entire ITF. They won't say word one when they are hitting for 300% more damage but if they slow down just a wee bit cuz they ran far off and SB faded you will hear it for sure.
I personally don't thank people for using FS simply because most players roll /kin specifically to use that power and buff their own damage. Not that I don't appreciate it, but to me it's like thanking a Bane for debuffing resists when it's part of their normal attack chain.
SB, however, is annoying to recast and takes special attention from the /kin, so I'll thank them for using it. It also makes me happy when I see ID used well.
Plus it's pretty rare that you'll do 300% more damage from FS... On my dom the damage cap is at 400%, and I'm generally around 280% with my own buffs, so at most I'm getting 120%, and that's assuming I don't have any buffs from anywhere else.
Don't get me wrong, I love doing 40% more damage, but my own sleet buffs everyone's by 30% when it's up (ignoring resists) and rad/ta/cold/etc. can raise the damage levels pretty comparably to a kin. It's hard to compare though because a lot of ranged classes won't be getting full FS benefit, and a lot of times -res debuffs won't be added before your first attack lands.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that I think a lot of people value FS over SB to an unreasonable extent. SB is great. I only value FS more than SB when I'm on my brute.
Good point. I was only mentioning the 300% because as a defender my cap is 300% and my build (which is mostly for endurance/accuracy/recharge) doesnt have much of a damage buff already so I really notice the boost. I guess what I was thinking was, that I was suprised people didnt notice the difference when I'm able to land fulcrum shift on the entire team. You make a great point however, that many people already have damage boosts as part of their toon and so are not seeing the huge boost I see on my kin when I land it.
In all fairness it really is a major damage boost, and I don't have Embrace of Fire perma by any means, so really I do notice a significant increase on any character that can safely get into range. Rereading my post, I think I was too hard on FS, especially considering the 50% recharge on SB will suffer the same relative effect reduction (I'm at about 220-260% recharge on the particular character I was talking about, depending on the power).
It's all just kind of an interesting combination. So many groups can wipe out spawns in a heartbeat without FS or SB that the run speed carrying people from spawn to spawn faster is probably having as much an impact on the speed of the TF/mission as the other combat specific benefits a kin brings.
Kinetics is such a busy set... Between spamming Siphon Speed to keep your own recharge up, trying to keep SB active the majority of time, casting FS 1-2 times every pull, spamming siphon power on AVs/EBs, trying to figure out where exactly the low HP person who's desperate for a heal ran off to, keeping ID active on weaker tanks or an overly adventurous scrapper or two, and then trying to actually use your primary that it's really understandable why someone would slack on the SB. It really is one of the most frantic power sets and it's easy to get burnt out on.
I was on a cave mission and was following the stoner when one of my teammates asked for SB. The cave was multi-level, with me and the stoner on the bottom floor, surrounded by a mob. The team mate was somewhere else in the cave. Here's how it went.
[SB Whiner] Hey, i asked for SB.
[Me] Hold on, I'm down here.
[SB Whiner] if i don't get SB ill die
< stoner and I still attacking mob >
< SB Whiner really dies >
[SB Whiner] thanks so much for no SB
< whiner quits team >
As for speed ITFs, my other kin friend said this:
If he needs my buffs, there's something wrong with his build. He has no business doing speed ITF.
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This sort of thing kind of gets to me. When I made my character, I didn't choose the "Speed Boost Provider" archetype. I chose Controller. I'm here to control things. I'm, I think, fairly good at controlling things. Whereas if I start trying to keep people Speed Boosted, the controlling starts not getting done, and people start getting KOed. So it started feeling like it wasn't worth it anymore.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
Once again, Local Man pretty well sums up my thoughts. If I do not want to bubble the team in both bubbles, I should not play my Force Field heroes. If I do not want to SB the team, I should not play my Kin.
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Now, when I'm going to be in a team fighting something that can't really be controlled, *then* I'll break out the build with SB.
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I simply can't cosign with this line of thought, having an Ill/Cold/Ice Controller with zero buffing abilities except maybe arctic fog and group invis. It's up to the player to decide which way they're going to contribute in team situations. You like to buff, which is cool, but some of us focus on our other abilities such as debuffing. This has never happened, but if a group leader is willing to part ways with someone casting alpha eating phantoms, with double stacked, achilles procced sleet with an ice storm on top because I'm not buffing... LOL... sorry I lost my train of thought.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Bad players aside, SB is one of the very best buffs you can give to a team to help them complete missions faster and better. My personal opinion is that if you don't want to SB the team, you should either play solo or pick another secondary. I feel that skipping SB is a very selfish choice by someone who isn't looking out for the best interests of the team over himself.
If I'm leading a team with a Kin who won't (or can't because he/she didn't take the power) SB the team, I may not kick the character (because I really think it is rude), but I will make a note and probably never team with that character again. If you don't want to take it, that's fine. But don't expect me to want to team with you. |
50 SM/WP Brute - D Block
50 FM/ELA Brute - Raging Daemon
50 Acher/MM Blaster - Dark Reiver
50 FM/SD - Firestorm Brigade
You were right to fear me...
I'm ok with keeping up SB on the team as much as I possibly can because I recognize the benefit of it. Heck, my number pad is one massive set of SB keybinds so I just have to hit a button and it will auto target a teammate and SB them (1 for 1st team mate, 2 for 2nd etc). However I do have one condition, since I do have more than just one power on my bar to contribute to the team...Don't make me chase you to buff you. I'm quite busy between the debuffs on the hard targets, keeping my recharge speed up, maxing out the damage with fulcrum shift, squeezing a few blasts in there, using my stackable holds on trouble targets and generally not dying. If you are down the hall or in another room when you need your crank fix, then you are on your own. Ill be the guy buffing the hell out of the team while you play Rambo on a sugar high off at the other end of the mission.
If someone SBs me cool, if they don't that's fine too. With all my buffs I barely notice if another one pops up or not. Probably 95% of the people I group with seem to play the same way.
On my /Cold I throw the odd shield on Brutes/Tankers/Scappers but I have only ever had one person ask for them.
I love how people get all self righteous over buffs, both in the giving and receiving. Maybe it's just forum bravado.
How people play in CoH and talk on the forums seem to be two very different things.
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This is very true. On the forums I do not do Rick Roll lyrics and dance moves. In the game I do them in the middle of a Mothership raid in the middle of the bowl by utilizing an entire tray of "Never gonna give you up" macros. Vastly different |
Originally Posted by Max_zero
How people play in CoH and talk on the forums seem to be two very different things.
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I realize I'm probably resurrecting an old post again, and it was intended to stir up arguments in the first place, but I'll actually make it useful.
In case you don't know how to make your buffing toons more effective, here's a way. I'm going to apply this to all my buffers when I get back to kentucky and get on my computer. Then I'm going to get back on this thread and talk some more trash, in the meantime:
Numpad Healing Binds from _tet_:
NUMPAD1 "+ $$teamselect 1$$powexec_name Heal Other"
NUMPAD2 "+ $$teamselect 2$$powexec_name Heal Other"
NUMPAD3 "+ $$teamselect 3$$powexec_name Heal Other"
NUMPAD4 "+ $$teamselect 4$$powexec_name Heal Other"
NUMPAD5 "+ $$teamselect 5$$powexec_name Heal Other"
NUMPAD6 "+ $$teamselect 6$$powexec_name Heal Other"
NUMPAD7 "+ $$teamselect 7$$powexec_name Heal Other"
NUMPAD8 "+ $$teamselect 8$$powexec_name Heal Other"
http://www.onlinegamecommands.com/ci...bindmacros.htm
http://www.onlinegamecommands.com/ci...escommands.htm
Substitute the power for whatever is appropriate. For a kin, SB would be the obvious choice. For an emp, I don't really see the point in Heal Other, when fortitude is probably a better choice. See someone's health dropping? Seems like it'd be harder to target the right person with these binds than it would be to click on the dropping health bar and heal it the old fashioned way. But whateva. I suggest we all do this with our kins and then come back to throw out our opinions on my flame thread again. LOL, I maintain 99% of my opinions about toons that need SB being broken beyond hope anyway. But I will grant that this will make SB a bit easier, and heckling of kins slightly less ridiculous.
P.S. I'm worse in game than I am here. LOL. Just check the 2010 Triumph Awards.
The last time I was on a team big enough to have issues boosting everyone, I just asked that they all came back to me to be rebuffed, because I was always going to hang out with the designated point, and that I would always cast those buffs after the spawn was down (unless an ID was needed to beak a hold).
If you wanted to go out own your own, you were ON YOUR OWN.
I do not remember the last time I have had all the problems with other players you all are talking about. Kinetics is an incredibly busy set, though. And with the defeat speed increases caused in part by the buffs, it makes it seem all the more frantic.
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
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Originally Posted by Elimist
fire/kin = controller. Fire control = a little less solid control in exchange for some more damage.
Primary set = control + decent damage Secondary set = buffs Sure, the firekin isn't going to do the same damage as the broadsword scrapper, but if he's juggling his holds, fulcrum shift, and fireball to hold and kill the enemies before they can kill him, so he can stay alive long enough to SB when he gets the chance, Leave him alone. Control + Damage in lieu of buffs in order to keep your own toon from lying facedown on the ground is a viable tactic if that's what your toon needs to stay alive. If there's one single power that does the least to keep my own firekin alive, it's speed boost. Unless I use it on the emp. Kin defender - attacks suck, better off drawing no aggro by not attacking and doing more good buffing Firekin troller neglecting holds and damage - dead, doing no good whatsoever because you can't SB when dead. Firekin troller keeping himself alive - Balance of holds/damage/buffs, mitigation/clearing mobs/boosting the team. Hmm, isn't this a pretty good addition to a team? |
I didn't see this when it posted in response to something I said about a month ago. I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing. If you are saying a Kinetics character needs to use all of the tools at his disposal, then I agree. If you are saying Speed Boost is less important than doing personal damage, I disagree. In fact, a Fire/Kin Controller on a team who prioritizes his or her own damage over the team is the reason everyone makes fun of Fire/Kin Controllers on teams.
Speed Boost does a lot more than just boost the team's damage. It boosts everything. Indomitable Will, Mass Confusion, Shield Charge, Footstomp, Liquefy, Hail of Bullets, Benumb, Heat Loss, Melt Armor, Regen Aura, Adrenalin Boost, Oil Slick Arrow, EM Pulse, everything. There is a very good reason Speed Boost is considered one of the best buffs in the game. Not using it on a team because you want to be the prima ballerina may make the Kin feel like a super star, but its a serious misunderstanding of what teammates could do if they had a teammate who actually supported them.
[EDIT: Now that I've taken time to reread the quoted post, I see it wasn't advocating avoidance of SB altogether. My quoting it probably wasn't appropriate in light of this. My apologies, tho I will let the post stand since its what I wrote, and hopefully be more judicious next time.]
A good buddy of mine is an experienced player who likes mostly scrappers . . . but for tough TFs, he pulls out his Kin/Rad because he knows that the Kinetics will contribute more to the overall team than the damage his single scrapper can do. Whenever his Kin/Rad is on the team, we know that the rest of us will be killing machines with plenty of Recharge and Recovery, frequent heals and endurance buffs and tons of damage buffs. He does a great job at keeping SB on everyone on the team, and considers his damage powers to be his secondary function -- still needed but less important than the team buffs.
And any time he plays that Kin/Rad character, the team can steamroll. People who don't understand how effective the Kinetics buffs can be have probably never played with a good Kinetics character.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Originally Posted by Come Undone
My policy tends to be, if you want to run off and solo the map, you don't get buffs, simply because I've died all too often trying to buff those people while they run around, not caring what agros anyone that attempts to help them. If you're with the team, and fight as a team, I'll do my best to buff you. And if the solo'er happens to be with the team, I might toss them something, but again I'm not going to try to follow them to offer any help.
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That.
I really don't like it when everybody runs off "soloing". Why be on a team if you're not gonna work together? If you want SB, (or whatever buff) you gotta come to me. I'm not gonna go traipsing through all the mobs going "OMG OMG!! Somebody's SB wore off!!". On "teams" like that, on a troller, I tend to just follow whoever is trying to actually tank. Keep them buffed, etc. Eventually the others will be like, "Hmm, they're kicking major A$$ over there" and they'll join the party.
Surprisingly, it's often Tankers and Stalkers that tend to stick together with me. There's been more than a few times when this has happened while I was on a team. I'm following the Tanker, and then the Stalker (who is just glad to be on a team at all) will follow us, due to my buffs and the aggro control of the tanker.
The next thing that happens is usually;
Blaster: "where you guys at?"
Scrapper: "theres more down here"
(Blaster dies, someone else dies)
Tanker: "We're doing the mission."
Defender: "split"
Stalker: "thx for buffz"
Controller (me) : "np :] "
(Blaster dies again. Scrapper dies. Defender dies.)
Scrapper: "this sucks"
(Scrapper quits)
(Tanker kicks them all)
(Tanker, Stalker and Controller pwn mission)
(Blaster then sends me a tell: "When u get star, invite me plz")
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Because sometimes, "working together" means "everyone takes their own spawn." |
Originally Posted by Skyster
I really don't like it when everybody runs off "soloing". Why be on a team if you're not gonna work together?
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It rarely requires 8 Heroes to arrest a single spawn, and it always makes me laugh when all 8 Heroes attack the last remaining critter of a former spawn.I'm firmly in the "if you want SB, you must be within 50 feet of me" camp. I put two EndMods in there, and no Ranges.
However, plenty of maps have space for a team to spread out more than 50 feet and still be "together," so my /Kin or Kin/ will have Flight or Hover or Super Speed on, and I'll click the teammate's name, hit Auto-follow, and trigger the boost, and then move on to the next teammate after it fires. I don't mind moving around to buff teammates, and I'll try to remember to shrug off Blasterlock sometimes in order to buff.
I try to watch the teammate buff icons, but seriously, when a toon's icons stretch 2/3's the way across my 24" monitor, it's a little hard to notice the tiny green blinking foot icon somewhere in the middle of all that, so I watch for teammates running slow. Or I'll hit IR or Siphon Speed first, and when it wears off, I know it's about time to re-SB everyone.
My preferred bufftime is as everyone is running in to take Alpha, because I sure as heck don't want Alpha aggro (unless I'm throwing the mass-hold) and it gives the spawn a bit of time to clump up around the melee toons before I immobilize them. And I'll throw ID on bouncing Blasters or other squishies if the knockback is getting out of control.
And sometimes the team will eliminate the spawn without me throwing a single attack, but big deal, I'll weep quietly to myself and hope Propel finishes animating in time for the next spawn.
Yeah, I pretty much mean that I'd rather SB others when I get around to it and actually play my character the way I enjoy for the rest of the time. If someone wants a SB bot that sacrifices all else to keep every character on the team permanently SBed, then they can pay for a second account and run their kin on it, if they think the 8th team slot is worth that.
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If using a single power is worth a team slot now, pug teams must be even more pathetic than ever before.
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Originally Posted by Elimist
Yeah, I pretty much mean that I'd rather SB others when I get around to it and actually play my character the way I enjoy for the rest of the time. If someone wants a SB bot that sacrifices all else to keep every character on the team permanently SBed, then they can pay for a second account and run their kin on it, if they think the 8th team slot is worth that.
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The only time I have ever refused to SB somebody was when a Stone tank was talking about how legit and awesome he was and that he didn't need any buffs. He complained the entire time.
My rule regarding SB....
If you can keep up with me and I remember....I'll SB you.
If not, then you do without.
If you ask for it a first time, I might SB you if you're close.
If you continue to ask for it through-out a TF, I'll ignore you.
GL!
**Side-note** I can't remember the last time anyone I play with have asked me to SB them. I equate that to the people I play with not sucking.
Lol, like I said, if you need it so bad that it's a good enough reason to complain about for an hour, or kick someone from your team, you're toon must be horribly broken and poorly slotted. You should rethink replacing /kick with /quit, so you're not bogging everyone down with your pathetic attempts at heroics.
The rest of the team told the complainer to shut up and asked me to stay.