Oh. I'm a derp!
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I don't know. Im sure in the EULA it says they can do as such. Buuut, it was something I mentioned in beta for Freedom.|
Originally Posted by Reiska
Probably, but do you honestly see the devs nerfing two paid-for sets? Just look at how much of an outcry there was over the SBE Performance Shifter proc getting nerfed (read: fixed) because of the fact that they paid extra for it.
The unfortunate reality of Street Justice and Titan Weapons being paid-for sets makes them significantly less likely to see nerfs, because neither development nor marketing is going to want to deal with people threatening to sue them or complain to the BBB or whatever over what they perceive (incorrectly) as a bait and switch. |
Have to get the paid for powersets right the first time. There are going to be people who buy the sets based on performance as the number one thing (look at the complaints about SF already, with people going "It's average in damage, so meh") and getting that performance taken down later will feel like they were had..."We'll give them something extremely powerful to make them want to buy it, then nerf it later so it doesn't get unbalanced"
Paid for sets need serious testing to make sure they're right in line were the devs want them, and best not to make them two weak either or people won't buy them.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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But this is the Scrapper forums |
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
>_> you guys should try it out with a stalker...what? <_<
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Yeah. That chain should be the best non-stalker version. 227 dps is not tops, but its not horrendous either. Deus Otiosus got about 260 dps on a brute replica of my scrappers db/elec (highest scrappers time to-date) for comparison purposes.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I mentioned before that I did use a build with a procced out Mercurial Blow, it did not provide better dps than the PS>SR>PS>SS chain. Also my build has 105% global rchg before hasten, which is slightly more rchg than needed for the chain I use, but is still relatively high. Also Micro was talking about Stalkers, my toon is a brute.
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So the question is, how much more damage does the Scrapper SF user do compared to Brute SF user (if they do at all, but I'm inclined to think Scrappers will generally make out with higher DPS than Brutes when it comes to Staff).
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
Yeah. That chain should be the best non-stalker version. 227 dps is not tops, but its not horrendous either. Deus Otiosus got about 260 dps on a brute replica of my scrappers db/elec (highest scrappers time to-date) for comparison purposes.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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You guys post so fast i have trouble keeping up |
Originally Posted by BrandX
So the question is, how much more damage does the Scrapper SF user do compared to Brute SF user (if they do at all, but I'm inclined to think Scrappers will generally make out with higher DPS than Brutes when it comes to Staff).
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. I am sure a scrapper will do better dps than the brute, but not necessarily by much.If you want a reference for top performing brute dps (minus ss/fire and TW), Deus made a thread on it in the brute forum some time ago that has several good data points. Shinobi's staff time is not that far from other sets.
I will also say I have not seen that km on a stalker seriously beats staff. I will have to do some testing there.
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Dual Pistols all over again, eh?
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
After comparing this set to others, staff looks pitifully underpowered on brutes and scrappers vs. just about anything. I'm shocked that it didn't seem to come up in the beta forums. How the devs could claim that staff is on par with something like titan weapons defies logic. I'm guessing they overvalued the rather pitiful secondary abilities vs. what the primary value of an offensive power set is - damage.
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Under construction
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Honestly it probably beats StJ on AOE -- Staff gets both Guarded Spin (a decent to good cone) and EotS. The radius on Spinning Strike is kind of lame, and hitting more than 2-3 mobs with Sweeping Cross is really hard. It's like StJ has 1.5 AOEs and Staff has probably a solid 2. StJ was really on seen as "good AOE" because it didn't loose any in the port to Stalkers.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Still worse than Dual Blades for ST and AoE.
StJ for ST and I'm willing to argue AoE because Eye of the Storm isn't anything but Radius. ELM for ST and AoE (Yeah, ELM got a huge spike due to the AS change, since it was Above Average/Good ST with no Power Hitter. It got a Power Hitter). Worse ST than MA, but has AoE so that's fair. Worse ST and AoE than Kinetic Melee. And that's it for Top Tier. |
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That, and Spinning Strike hits like a truck. EotS is... average. Arguably below average. It's slow, it's damage doesn't really keep up, you'll never Perfection it unless you're a Tanker.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Honestly it probably beats StJ on AOE -- Staff gets both Guarded Spin (a decent to good cone) and EotS. The radius on Spinning Strike is kind of lame, and hitting more than 2-3 mobs with Sweeping Cross is really hard. It's like StJ has 1.5 AOEs and Staff has probably a solid 2. StJ was really on seen as "good AOE" because it didn't loose any in the port to Stalkers.
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Guarded Spin is basically your main AoE, but it's a cone so it takes some positioning. SF's AoE is only noteworthy for it's Radius.
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KM can't really function right now because it relies so heavily on the Stalker ATO proc which is limited to proccing only once every 10 seconds. If the KM Stalker doesn't get his ATO proc, he doesn't get his BU, which means his BU isn't perma, nor can it have it's potential 150% BU uptime, which is it's greatest niche, also missing the BU proc means there will be a gap in KM's top attack chain, which includes BU.
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
I will also say I have not seen that km on a stalker seriously beats staff. I will have to do some testing there.
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DB/Elec, other than scrapper's natural higher dps, will strictly favor a scrapper due to the high amount of +dmg stacking from blinding feint, which makes a huge difference for scrappers and is much more of a trivial buff for brutes due to low base damage and fury. Staff Fighting doesn't have a follow up clone, nor does it have a BU, all it has is a minor stacking damage buff that only stacks up to 15% iirc (could be wrong on that number), which isn't going to do a ton to capitalize on a scrapper's advantages like blinding feint does.
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
Yeah. That chain should be the best non-stalker version. 227 dps is not tops, but its not horrendous either. Deus Otiosus got about 260 dps on a brute replica of my scrappers db/elec (highest scrappers time to-date) for comparison purposes.
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Honest question here, do you guys ever play a set just because it is fun? Or is it always about the numbers? I have a lvl 50 incarnate TW/EA brute and while powerful, it is boring as watching paint dry compared to the fast pace of staff fighting.
Best attack chain? What ever is fun for me at the time.
In the end concepts are what make me play my characters. If I come up with a concept that I love, and attach it to a power set that fits. Then I am having fun and the character gets played.
I guess the numbers are fun for some people, but I just am not one of them. /SD is suppose to be mana from heaven for scrappers, and I can't stand the set. It is just not fun for me.
Just wanted to throw that out there. Tomorrow I will be having FUN playing my new staff/ea scrapper on live.
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Nope. Well, effectiveness >= to fun for me, so that's sort of a trick question. I've hit a point where I have the best of the best, anything that doesn't reach that standard isn't fun for me. Especially as my time is much more limited now, I don't have time to waste messing around with stuff that I'm not really going to do anything with anyways. If I make a toon I have full intention that I will IO it, Accolade it, Incarnate it, and that it will be competitve with my other toons, if it doesn't live up to those standards I delete it. Really the only toons that I didn't care about how well they would perform were my first 2 toons (my nrg/nrg blaster and my nin/dark mm), now 85 50s later (and about 75 of those deleted), there's just no point. I've already played pretty much everything I'd consider playing. The only thing left is new sets, and very few of those sets are competitve with the original sets.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Honest question here, do you guys ever play a set just because it is fun?
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Nope. As Dread put it, Effectiveness >= Fun.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Honest question here, do you guys ever play a set just because it is fun? Or is it always about the numbers? I have a lvl 50 incarnate TW/EA brute and while powerful, it is boring as watching paint dry compared to the fast pace of staff fighting.
Best attack chain? What ever is fun for me at the time. In the end concepts are what make me play my characters. If I come up with a concept that I love, and attach it to a power set that fits. Then I am having fun and the character gets played. I guess the numbers are fun for some people, but I just am not one of them. /SD is suppose to be mana from heaven for scrappers, and I can't stand the set. It is just not fun for me. Just wanted to throw that out there. Tomorrow I will be having FUN playing my new staff/ea scrapper on live. |
I realize this is mostly a math-driven thread, but I feel like I should say something:
Okay, so the DPS is 200, which is low for a Scrapper set.
...So what?
Yeah, I know, the obvious counter-response is that it shouldn't be so low. But really, in the long run, unless CoH suddenly gets tossed a massive difficulty spike, does it matter?
I mean yeah, TW is a great set. I had a TW/Elec Scrapper at 35. I also dumped it and rerolled it into an MA/Elec. Why? Because I couldn't get over the ridiculous end useage. Even with Power Sink, I was frequently bottoming out and it was pissing me off. Not to mention the fact that missing any attack when you're trying to START momentum is painful.
So sure, mathematically, TW is a great set. But while I know the forums are great for number-crunching, I don't think they take into account what a player will feel like using or just personal perference. Sure, ELM is a stupidly good Stalker set. But unless I have a concept for it, why would I make an ELM stalker? Because it's one of the best AoE Stalker sets?
Now, before anyone starts the slippery slope of "Well if they don't do something now, then later sets will just be more of the same!" I don't think that's the case. Beast Mastery has poor performance, but they KNOW that. They just don't have the time to sit down and work out a compromising fix.
But I don't think every set should necessarily always be as hot as StJ or TW. Otherwise the escalation would wind up making almost ALL the old sets utterly obsolete.
I would agree with you Issen if the set was free - id probably make one lvl it to 50 and not bother IOing it. For a set i have to pay for thou - it damb well better be close to StJ and TW or whats the point.
Hell I didnt even GET StJ with the craptacular AOE it has.
If I opened up a thread titled "New RP group on Virtue" and said:
"You guys are all leveling so slow because you spend too much time talking to yourselves instead of fighting. Don't you understand the point of the game is to earn xp?"
...that would be rude.
Going into a thread titled "Staff Attack Chain" and trying to explain to the posters that attack chains and set performance aren't important is pretty much exactly the same thing.
And yeah... staff is a little disappointing numbers wise. It's got some neat AoE/Cone options... but given the monster in the room that is Titan weapons, I don't see any cool endgame build tricks to exploit with staffs. It's a pretty good set for leveling up though.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
If I opened up a thread titled "New RP group on Virtue" and said:
"You guys are all leveling so slow because you spend too much time talking to yourselves instead of fighting. Don't you understand the point of the game is to earn xp?"
...that would be rude.
Going into a thread titled "Staff Attack Chain" and trying to explain to the posters that attack chains and set performance aren't important because the game is easy and can be fun to play while underperforming...
...also rude for exactly the same reason.
And yeah... staff is a little disappointing numbers wise. It's got some neat AoE/Cone options... but given the monster in the room that is Titan weapons, I don't see any cool endgame staff build tricks that aren't overshadowed by other sets. It's a pretty good set for leveling up though.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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Ya, I've calculated it before, and even assuming you could get that build up every cycle (which you can't, as you said), it is not necessarily this massive killer it is made out to be. In AoE this is also true, even with the 100% crit on burst. My point is that there are a lot of misconceptions floating around based on feeling--such as 'km is super strong'--not on fact.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
KM can't really function right now because it relies so heavily on the Stalker ATO proc which is limited to proccing only once every 10 seconds. If the KM Stalker doesn't get his ATO proc, he doesn't get his BU, which means his BU isn't perma, nor can it have it's potential 150% BU uptime, which is it's greatest niche, also missing the BU proc means there will be a gap in KM's top attack chain, which includes BU.
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Regarding db with brutes vs scrappers, blinding feint certainly favors scrappers, but other sets did not fare much better. If I could link more easily on my phone I would dig up the thread for you.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
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Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
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Except that is not what I did, and you may not have been replying to me specifically. See I played both TW and Staff to 50, I found one to be fun (Staff) and the other to be so boring it was like doing a chore (TW).|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Going into a thread titled "Staff Attack Chain" and trying to explain to the posters that attack chains and set performance aren't important is pretty much exactly the same thing.
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Fun is a subjective thing. What you want to do with a set plays into that fun. Some people like big numbers, some people like flashy animations, some just like concept.
I personally do not feel that Staff is under performing, it is a fun set to me. It was fun leveling, and it was fun playing in the end game. I am still trying to figure out why I played TW, and the best I can figure is because it was there.
Take a look back through the scrapper boards and you will see there is a trend where every new set has a thread like this made about it. I remember people swore KM was crap bacause the animations were so long. People are not saying that any more. At some point, someone is going to come along and show something awesome that staff can do. There will be this thread "Look at what I did with staff melee!" It is just the way of things on these boards.
There are also some wishy washy people here. One moment screaming nerf, and the next screaming buff. I think all of the scrapper sets should be brought in line, and I am sure the devs think they already are all even and in line. :/ or they may be working behind the scenes to get them there, I doubt that though.
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If all this is really that important to you, you must stop playing now and spend every waking hour working on your coding so you can begin to create video games that will save the poor dying market.
Really, if you are the only one who can save CoH or the gaming market, why are you wasting your precious time butting your head against the wall here? You'll have the best games in the world in no time at all.
No! I'm serious! Go! Quick! Save us!
If not, you're another of the "If only the game designers would listen to ME, their game would be saved because they're so stupid!" folks.
I've seen that so many times on so many different game boards (tabletop games, video games, miniature war games, etc.) that it's not even funny.
Of course you have valid points, but the way you are presenting them demands that we believe that you know best. But, of course, you really don't. You just think you do.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
... Except it is. Do y
ou think that aesthetics haven't been an issue? Do you have any idea how unsustainable the gaming market is? It must be nice. Regardless, that isn't the prime topic here, I suppose. Your last statement is a bit of a lie, because we've seen what Closed Beta Testing has done to fix the performance of underperforming sets. We've also seen what happens when a set ISN'T properly tested by the player base (Dual Pistols iirc was a case of this?) The Open Beta VIP Testing has been abused to be nothing but a sight-seeing, data-diving aesthetics trash-fest. It's OVERWHELMED by people wanting to SEE the shiny, and not make sure it's doing as well as it SHOULD be. That is the issue. Superficiality is winning, and it should be tied. Go look at the Beast Mastery thread. The Staff Fighting thread. Beast Mastery had ZERO posts about it's damage, until I stepped in. It had some survivability concerns (because of NInjas being what they are), but nobody cared about it's garbage damage performance. Staff Fighting is FORTY PAGES of complaining about the sound effects and the weapon models. MAYBE a couple of posts about the performance. MAYBE. This is ludicrous. This is not testing. This is just "SPOILERS YAY!" All I'm saying is, in regard to your last part? If aesthetics continue to be the driving concern over marketing in the gaming industry? The bubble will pop. It will not be pretty. This is a fact many, many economists who keep an eye on the industry have been saying WILL happen, and the effects ARE showing. And this could be a legitimate 'fear' for City of Heroes, if it begins to rely on the Market more and more. Aesthetics are a dangerous thing to rely on. But, is it as fearful as the rest of the gaming industry, primarily the Triple A market? No. But it IS why I have a hatred for superficiality trumping all else. It is why I personally go for performance before aesthetics in my testing. Why? Because a hundred people are talking about whiffle bat sounds. I'm being drowned out about performance. Sigh. |
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Except that is not what I did, and you may not have been replying to me specifically. See I played both TW and Staff to 50, I found one to be fun (Staff) and the other to be so boring it was like doing a chore (TW).
Fun is a subjective thing. What you want to do with a set plays into that fun. Some people like big numbers, some people like flashy animations, some just like concept. I personally do not feel that Staff is under performing, it is a fun set to me. It was fun leveling, and it was fun playing in the end game. I am still trying to figure out why I played TW, and the best I can figure is because it was there. Take a look back through the scrapper boards and you will see there is a trend where every new set has a thread like this made about it. I remember people swore KM was crap bacause the animations were so long. People are not saying that any more. At some point, someone is going to come along and show something awesome that staff can do. There will be this thread "Look at what I did with staff melee!" It is just the way of things on these boards. There are also some wishy washy people here. One moment screaming nerf, and the next screaming buff. I think all of the scrapper sets should be brought in line, and I am sure the devs think they already are all even and in line. :/ or they may be working behind the scenes to get them there, I doubt that though. |
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I personally do not feel that Staff is under performing, it is a fun set to me. It was fun leveling, and it was fun playing in the end game. I am still trying to figure out why I played TW, and the best I can figure is because it was there. |
Does buffing the set make it unfun for you? No? Then why are you trying to silence the discussion by saying 'It's fun so it works for me.'? The reality is that some of us enjoy our minmaxing and it's fun to get sets that look good as WELL as play well. Accepting less than that is fine, but some of us don't accept that.
Enjoy your Unicycle, we want a Rocket Bike.
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Have a blast. I asked a question, I got my answers. Save your points for the set that makes you happy. And I never tried to silence the discussion, I asked a question, which usually promotes MORE discussion.
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Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
What you feel. You -feel-. What you feel, and what actually -is- are usually drastically different.
Does buffing the set make it unfun for you? No? Then why are you trying to silence the discussion by saying 'It's fun so it works for me.'? The reality is that some of us enjoy our minmaxing and it's fun to get sets that look good as WELL as play well. Accepting less than that is fine, but some of us don't accept that. Enjoy your Unicycle, we want a Rocket Bike. |
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Average ST and excellent AOE is not under performing on any scale other than a min/max.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
StJ is only 'overpowered' on Stalkers, if anyone.