These days I think you need to consider confuse and fear protection relevant, as well as things like endurance, recovery and slow resistance. That's all really beside the point I was making, though. Fiery aura is a good set. It does not do every desirable thing. Staff fighting is a good set. It does not do every desirable thing. Some people won't value the things it does do as much as the damage it doesn't do, but MajorPrankster is dead on in saying that comparing it by one metric to the set that is the best by that metric is not a useful comparison.
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I actually spent several hours crunching (ST) DPS numbers on Staff Fighting scrappers tonight, so in that light I'm going to comment on the things you've said.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Katana may perhaps have "fallen to average" in the esteem of some players, or even many players for all I know, but it still does everything that it ever has. It still has strong ST damage and excellent AOE plus a powerful defense buff as well as tons of -def which allows you to slot as many Achilles heels as you want. I can't stop you from regarding that as bad but I can deem you to be wrong.
I was pretty worried that street justice and particularly titan weapons were too strong. Titan weapons probably is too strong. My concerns have mostly been allayed by reality: where's the overwhelming TW majority? It lasted for the same amount of time that any new set craze does and now we're back to the status quo: most brutes are SS, TW is in there with "the rest." Does it matter if it's unbalanced if it isn't overrepresented? Since we're on the subject, I feel that there are two major factors limiting the use of TW. The first is that it is conceptually very narrow. How many CoH players knew they wanted to make a character with a comically oversized hammer before that option was made available to them? The second issue is that the momentum mechanic is kind of annoying in my opinion. In reality it is the set's strength: even the slow versions of the attacks are very good, with momentum the set is ridiculous. In spite of that, it feels to me roughly equivalent to a set where I had no choice but to redraw every other attack. Assuming I'm even right about these flaws, does that mean it's fine that the set is numerically broken? That's a question that datamining can answer. One of the features of modern sets that you skirted around is their versatility. Mace does decent damage with an essentially random array of control effects attached. That was one of the initial design strategies. Another set that was created using the same principle is martial arts. Martial arts may have been worse than mace, but over the years it has been buffed to the point where that could no longer be called the goal of its design. Now it is a high end single target set with good AOE (cool kid ATs only, sorry stalkers) and control that you can take your pick of and usually rely on. Speaking of reliable secondary effects, let's look at katana and TW again. "TW makes katana look like junk," you may say, "it even appropriates its previously special trick of having a defense buff!" Yes and no. Defensive sweep is less plausible to fit into a good attack chain than divine avalanche. It has abysmal DPA if you use it to build momentum, but if you use it when you have momentum you're basically wasting a big chunk of your momentum. It is not desirable. Assuming the GC-GD-GC-SD chain, just replace one of the GCs with DA: the chain is fine, no annoyance incurred. More tellingly, though, DS simply has a much smaller defense buff than DA does. What that says to me is that the devs actually spent quite a bit of time working on the balance of a set that raised the eyebrows of many, myself included, with respect to the fact that it was pay-for. Now, take staff. Does it have a "heavy hitter?" That depends on what you mean. Sky splitter hits plenty hard, but it does so relatively slowly. It's comparable to eviscerate. Rather than being a cone it has a slew of potential other effects tied to it. A good trade? I don't think it can be considered a trade. The set already contains a very good cone and pbaoe, plus a defensive cone that's closer to DA than it is to DS in terms of real utility. The trade, if there is one, is losing build up in exchange for the forms. That's a trade I'd make any day of the week: I know how to get more damage on my scrappers. Starts with M, ends with usculature. The forms seem tailor-made to shore up the same kind of weaknesses as the alpha slot. You may be tempted to cry foul here; if you can build sets with BU to be fine with musculature, staff gains nothing at all! I don't think that's true. First I will note that once you factor in the up-time and the animation time, BU isn't actually that much better than just running assault. At the high end the tohit bonus is its more unique trick, yet as we know that is often extraneous. For evidence that the devs agree, see recent sets: SJ an TW both get BUs that have token nerfs to their damage buff in exchange for something much more useful than that. Even if you like BU though, what are you getting instead? Quite a lot! You have, at any time, the option of choosing an assault-style damage buff, a quickness-style recharge buff or far and away the most powerful, a global endurance discount. That effect is huge. It's huge while leveling, but it can also be huge at the high end depending on what you choose to do with it. The thing to note is that the level 3 buff is basically as powerful as cardiac or vigor. Try and sneeze at that. Of course, those buffs aren't perma, are they. You cash them in by using one of the key powers in your single target chain or your best aoe. Again, yes and no. You only cash in your perfection if you're already at level 3. If you're already at level 3 then not only do those key powers benefit from the level 3 buff, they also gain additional damage and additional buffs or debuffs. If you're any lower they themselves build perfection and you can then fire the finisher that you hadn't just used as a builder, or you can continue with your chain and enjoy the full strength buff for its duration. That right there is staff's best trick and it is completely opaque unless you dig through the guts of the powers. It has versatility unlike any previous melee set in the game in a way that unfortunately means most people will probably never really understand it. tl;dr: TW is overrated, staff is destined to forever be underrated. Those in the know will find a lot to like about it. |
I want to open by saying this: Staff Fighting has a pretty good baseline on scrappers; it performs about on par with Katana when considering SO builds. The "problem" with the set, if you consider it one, is that the set has very little growth potential from there. It's a little like Energy Melee in that regard. Energy Melee isn't regarded as a poor set because its baseline performance is poor; any objective comparison of melee set ST DPS performance using SO builds, indeed, finds that Energy Melee comes out pretty close to the top of the list in fact. Energy Melee is regarded as a poor set both because of its game-worst AoE potential (even worse than Martial Arts) and because of the fact that it benefits very little from optimization, because it can already run very close to its optimal attack chain on SOs.
Staff Fighting is in that same boat, for non-Stalkers. The optimal ST attack chain for it as best as I can tell is Precise Strike-Serpent's Reach-Precise Strike-Sky Splitter (I won't rule out the possibility there might be a better chain that doesn't use Sky Splitter, but I didn't see it). With typical melee build attack IO set slotting (kinetic combat + pieces of Mako's Bite) and assuming you're using Form of the Body for the damage bonus, Staff Fighting needs a total of 130% global recharge (roughly) to achieve this chain. Hasten gives you 70% of that, so you only need 60% from external sources. However, this chain only gains about 15 DPS total over the best chain the set can manage using SOs and/or generic non-set IOs, because not unlike Energy Melee, Staff Fighting has very little to gain from global recharge; the best DPA attack in the set is also one of the lowest recharge attacks in the set (base 6). This can probably be improved on a little by stuffing Precise Strike full of procs, but that only goes so far.
Ultimately, I can't in good conscience say Scrapper/Brute Staff Fighting is a bad set. It has adequate - if not great - baseline performance. It just has very little room to grow from there. It's probably slightly better for Brutes because Brutes get the full effect of Fury on the bonus damage from Sky Splitter at perfection 3 while Critical doesn't factor in that damage.
Stalker Staff Fighting, on the other hand, is a great set.
I want to comment on a few other things you said: for one, you somewhat significantly undervalue Build Up's damage bonus. Assuming that you 3-slot it and hit it every time it's up, Build Up has a 21.1% uptime - this means that for Scrappers, it's effectively the same as giving all your powers +21.1% damage enhancement extra. For Brutes and Stalkers, this is a more modest 16.88%. Assault on these same ATs for comparison is a 10.5% damage buff.
For two, I think you're overvaluing Staff Mastery somewhat. Form of the Body is weak; at its *best* it's worse than Build Up, and the only way to maintain that peak +damage is to never use Sky Splitter, which hurts your DPS. Form of the Soul's endurance reduction is nice at pre-SO levels, and if you're using a secondary that has difficulties with endurance management may remain your best choice overall. But if you're /Regen or /Willpower, it's unlikely to be of any use to you. Form of the Mind's recharge bonus is mostly inconsequential from an offensive standpoint because it peaks at 15%, Staff doesn't benefit much from recharge anyway, and it's not likely to improve your attack chain at all. On the other hand, /Regen may like it for the quicker recharges on their click powers.
I do pretty much agree with you that Form of the Soul is probably, overall, the "best" form most of the time, contrary to what people would expect.
Don't get me wrong: I'm going to buy Staff Melee on day one, and I'm going to enjoy the heck out of playing it most likely. I'm just not going to be doing it on a scrapper.
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Where are you getting 40% from? Bruising can't stack. EotS' -res can stack with it, though, for -30%.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I have no doubt in my mind that the best users of staff fighting will be stalkers in terms of dps. Tankers will probably be the 2nd best users of staff due to being able to put out -40% res with mercurial blow, and having better +res and -res in SS and EotS respectively.
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EDIT: Nevermind, I just realized. Achilles' Heel proc, of course. Leaving this here for posterity.
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Neither one should take priority over the other. Kindly stop supporting this. I'm well aware it's 'your money', but you're part of the problem, and so is everyone else who shares this mentality. I was right on the 'money' (or the lack that I paid for it) on Beast Mastery being bought out for it's aesthetics, and then the unhappiness about it's performance becoming a quick issue.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
I am just happy I am not hung up on having the best possible mathematical killing beast so as to not be able to make interesting, fun characters.
And I know that I am not alone. Staff looks and feels fun. The game IMO is about relaxing and having fun, not playing the most-est, best-est killing machine. I am well aware that playing the best machine is, in fact, what some find fun. Then find it and play it, please don't complain that every new set is not it.  |
That was due to people like you being 'satisfied with aesthetics, performance is secondary'. Enough is enough.
The reason I value BU less than analysis of its buff alone would merit is the additional factor of its animation time. It's still worth using but that makes it much less worth using than it would be in the ideal, zero animation environment. It varies set by set what the cost of that animation time is and I certainly haven't bothered to work it out for every case, but it bugs me. Regardless, it's a fine power and I could understand someone preferring it to having forms on tap.
What I don't like about stalker staff fighting is losing innocuous strikes. Without it staff is still one of the better stalker sets for AOE and you get to keep a pretty good cone that incidentally buffs your defense for free. Scrappers have the option to skip that cone and use the better one, though, or take both and go cone-crazy, or take both and use them in different circumstances. Maybe it's because my last character was a stalker but I'm hankering for some real AOE.
In faaaact... GS-IS-GS-EotS is a little bit sexy, I think you'll find. Hrm. Hadn't thought of that.
Bah! I'm trying to decide should I buy StJ or Staff for a stalker...but I think StJ still comes out on top for stalkers no?
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In Single Target? Definitely. In AoE... honestly, Eye of the Storm is pretty average. It has a wider radius than Spinning Strike, but that's all it has going for it.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Bah! I'm trying to decide should I buy StJ or Staff for a stalker...but I think StJ still comes out on top for stalkers no?
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I am not supporting anything other than fun.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Neither one should take priority over the other. Kindly stop supporting this. I'm well aware it's 'your money', but you're part of the problem, and so is everyone else who shares this mentality. I was right on the 'money' (or the lack that I paid for it) on Beast Mastery being bought out for it's aesthetics, and then the unhappiness about it's performance becoming a quick issue.
That was due to people like you being 'satisfied with aesthetics, performance is secondary'. Enough is enough. |
It's fun to run around and kill pixels in CoH.
As long as the set plays well enough to do that, then there is not a problem. Just because a set does not perform in the top tiers does not mean there is anything wrong.
The forums, as always, screw these supposed performance issues drastically.
Players like me play for relaxation and fun. As long as the performance is not so off kilter that one cannot make any headway at all (even a man-build or a non-pet MM can do that) a set is preforming well enough, even if that means some players won't like it.
No different than the TW you like to promote as being 'the best'. It sucks. Completely sucks as far as I am concerned. It's no fun to play at all, to me.
Aesthetics in this game will ALWAYS be more important to me and a number of players.
Do I value performance? Yes. There are baselines that even I want to achieve because I want to be a Hero not a Sidekick (at least most of the time I have a character named 'Trusty Sidekick').
But FUN is the biggest thing for me and aesthetics, ie. variety, adds to that far more than being able to kill pixels in the most mathematically efficient matter.
So no, I won't shut up any more than you will.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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It's a shame you can't accept both matter equally. I can only hope this problematic mindset is eliminated one day. Superficiality is far too dominate in the gaming market these days. And part of the reason why the gaming market is also in such shambles.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
I am not supporting anything other than fun.
It's fun to run around and kill pixels in CoH. As long as the set plays well enough to do that, then there is not a problem. Just because a set does not perform in the top tiers does not mean there is anything wrong. The forums, as always, screw these supposed performance issues drastically. Players like me play for relaxation and fun. As long as the performance is not so off kilter that one cannot make any headway at all (even a man-build or a non-pet MM can do that) a set is preforming well enough, even if that means some players won't like it. No different than the TW you like to promote as being 'the best'. It sucks. Completely sucks as far as I am concerned. It's no fun to play at all, to me. Aesthetics in this game will ALWAYS be more important to me and a number of players. Do I value performance? Yes. There are baselines that even I want to achieve because I want to be a Hero not a Sidekick (at least most of the time I have a character named 'Trusty Sidekick'). But FUN is the biggest thing for me and aesthetics, ie. variety, adds to that far more than being able to kill pixels in the most mathematically efficient matter. So no, I won't shut up any more than you will. |
Enjoy your pointless destruction of that economy.
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Thanks Reppu. To bad Mids is still borked with StJ. I have a feeling though due to Crushing Uppercut and a few other powers StJ still pulls ahead. I just want to make sure because I'm not made out of (Money)Points.
|
Originally Posted by Reppu
In Single Target? Definitely. In AoE... honestly, Eye of the Storm is pretty average. It has a wider radius than Spinning Strike, but that's all it has going for it.
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If you want performance, StJ is the way to go. Especially on a Scrapper. If you want style, well... both honestly ooze with it, so it really comes down to that concept.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Thanks Reppu. To bad Mids is still borked with StJ. I have a feeling though due to Crushing Uppercut and a few other powers StJ still pulls ahead. I just want to make sure because I'm not made out of (Money)Points.
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Again, pure performance it's StJ hands down for a Scrapper. StJ has a lot of room for growth, while Staff Fighting is as good as it's gonna get out of the box for Scrappers.
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I almost spewed my coffee...|
Originally Posted by Reppu
It's a shame you can't accept both matter equally. I can only hope this problematic mindset is eliminated one day. Superficiality is far too dominate in the gaming market these days. And part of the reason why the gaming market is also in such shambles.
Enjoy your pointless destruction of that economy. |
Hyperbole much?
You are taking love of the way this game looks and the fun it brings to destroying the entire gaming market? And that multi-billion dollar, highly profitable market is in a shambles?
This game is for FUN. Not for proving one can out-smart the developers by finding the most mathematically perfect combo and leveraging it, even if one might define that as fun.
Nowhere, in any post I have made, did I advocate a balance should not be sought for aesthetics and performance. However, given a choice, I find aesthetics to be more important for THIS game than top tier mathematical performance. This game is about comic books.
If you want talk about performance, then we can go over to forums for the new FPS that just came out Thursday, which I have been playing on and off for 13 years in various incarnations.
IMO, Reppu, you take all of this far too seriously and extrapolate conclusions that are way off base. This game is a casual MMO based on comics targeted mainly at people who want a break from games that require a 'hardcore' gaming outlook.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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There is no 'choice', which is why you argument fails to even stand on it's own two feet. If 'Beta Testers' would stop being lazy, sneak-peak only bumpkins and actually test performance, we wouldn't have to compromise. Do you disagree? I hope you don't.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
I almost spewed my coffee...
Hyperbole much? You are taking love of the way this game looks and the fun it brings to destroying the entire gaming market? And that multi-billion dollar, highly profitable market is in a shambles? This game is for FUN. Not for proving one can out-smart the developers by finding the most mathematically perfect combo and leveraging it, even if one might define that as fun. Nowhere, in any post I have made, did I advocate a balance should not be sought for aesthetics and performance. However, given a choice, I find aesthetics to be more important for THIS game than top tier mathematical performance. This game is about comic books. If you want talk about performance, then we can go over to forums for the new FPS that just came out Thursday, which I have been playing on and off for 13 years in various incarnations. IMO, Reppu, you take all of this far too seriously and extrapolate conclusions that are way off base. This game is a casual MMO based on comics targeted mainly at people who want a break from games that require a 'hardcore' gaming outlook. |
We honestly need to go back to a Closed Beta Test at this point, where a select few people are intelligently discussing BOTH aesthetics and performance. As it stands? It's largely, since the Open Beta started for VIPs, been aesthetics clamoring.
So, yes. You're being blinded by superficiality because you've made a false perception of 'choice', and also have an opinion of 'it's City of Heroes it's kay if it's aesthetics only.'
No. THAT is killing the gaming market. FAR too many people for FAR too long are 'if it looks good, it gets my money'! Enough is enough. Stop making compromises where they are not needed.
Test both the aesthetics AND the performance. YOU are why compromises are made. Why should I care about aesthetics if you won't care about performance? Care for both and stop making a fake choice.
Wait, so every new set needs to be both the best looking, most fun and most mathematically awesome min/max set ever, or its not worth paying for? Is that seriously the standard we are 'trying' to enforce.
Staff IS fun, and it is effective. Is it the best dmg-based set in the game? Absolutely not. Could it use a dmg buff? Probably. Is it broken or unplayable if it doesn't? No. To people who want to play a more AoE-oriented, fast, fun, survivable/utility set, this will be great. Because of the flexibility for various playstyles and situations, especially for casual players who never get more than a couple of lvl 50s, this set will be great.
It is silly to think that every new set is being implemented for the benefit of the endgame min/max community. We may be the most vocal minority of the gaming community, but we are still the minority. Time to accept that.
As for the endgame performance testing in Beta - Until they give out bumps to 50 (or offer some other fast way to hit 50 on new sets on the Beta Server) for significant endgame play in the Open Beta, endgame performance will never get the testing it requires. The number of players with PL capabilities, let alone PL capabilities on the Beta server with the time to implement them, is very small.
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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The 'standard' should be 'competitive to the best'. That is all it needs to be. A new set should be 'competitive'. It does not have to 'win'. It does not have to 'lose'. It simply needs to be in the race. That is what I want, and what I feel should be strived for in testing. Competitiveness, not Outlier.|
Originally Posted by Xyzor
Wait, so every new set needs to be both the best looking, most fun and most mathematically awesome min/max set ever, or its not worth paying for? Is that seriously the standard we are 'trying' to enforce.
|
It's almost like if you're seen asking for buffs, you obviously want an Overpowered Outlier. Ludicrous.
Also, Staff was tested at 50 with the BEST IOs in the game (IE: PPM Procs off the market).
200 DPS on a Scrapper.
That's pathetic.
Yes, it was the best chain, too. Yes, it was an overly impossibly expensive build. In fact, it's in this thread, even.
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And still you not are reading, or at least comprehending, what I am posting.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Test both the aesthetics AND the performance. YOU are why compromises are made. Why should I care about aesthetics if you won't care about performance? Care for both and stop making a fake choice.
|
Compromises are made by the developers to promote what they want the game to be and I am happy with the game.
I am not advocating fashion taking over for form. I am saying that fashion is more important for the theme of this game, IF a choice has to be made, where compromises are chosen to be made.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that this is somehow ruining the entire gaming industry.
There is nothing wrong with making all sets perform competitively to one one another, nothing at all.
Let me put it to you another way.
The developers cannot make everyone happy. They make the most they can happy, to the best of their ability, with an eye toward profit. If you cannot live with that, it's your problem.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
I'm not saying the endgame performance wasn't tested, or even tested well, by a few people. My point was that there is a fundamental flaw in the way the Beta server is set up that limits the NUMBER of players who will be able to test endgame performance. Therefore, the available data for devs to examine to see if a set is under- or over-performing, is more limited and less likely to be used as a factor in determining necessary changes.
I would be happy to test endgame level items, for example, but barely have time to lvl 50s on my live servers, let alone on the Beta. I play on Beta, but rarely get past the 30s. I suspect the majority of players on the Beta server are similar to me in their available playtime and speed of leveling.
I'm not disagreeing with the more moderate parts of your argument. I agree that new sets should be in the same league as other sets, they shouldn't be vastly inferior or superior. What I disagree with is the 'sky is falling' argument that sub-par damage on a new set that is still fun and still effective (and has lots of other flexibility merits) will result in the utter annihilation of quality in the online gaming industry. We understand you feel strongly about this, and I, for one, respect that, but don't get Glenn Beck-y on us and tell us that unless we see it your way, the world is going to end.
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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... Except it is. Do you think that aesthetics haven't been an issue? Do you have any idea how unsustainable the gaming market is? It must be nice. Regardless, that isn't the prime topic here, I suppose.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
And still you are reading, or at least comprehending, what I am posting.
Compromises are made by the developers to promote what they want the game to be and I am happy with the game. I am not advocating fashion taking over for form. I am saying that fashion is more important for the theme of this game, IF a choice has to be made, where compromises are chosen to be made. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that this is somehow ruining the entire gaming industry. There is nothing wrong with making all sets perform competitively to one one another, nothing at all. Let me put it to you another way. The developers cannot make everyone happy. They make the most they can happy, to the best of their ability, with an eye toward profit. If you cannot live with that, it's your problem. |
Your last statement is a bit of a lie, because we've seen what Closed Beta Testing has done to fix the performance of underperforming sets. We've also seen what happens when a set ISN'T properly tested by the player base (Dual Pistols iirc was a case of this?)
The Open Beta VIP Testing has been abused to be nothing but a sight-seeing, data-diving aesthetics trash-fest. It's OVERWHELMED by people wanting to SEE the shiny, and not make sure it's doing as well as it SHOULD be. That is the issue.
Superficiality is winning, and it should be tied. Go look at the Beast Mastery thread. The Staff Fighting thread.
Beast Mastery had ZERO posts about it's damage, until I stepped in. It had some survivability concerns (because of NInjas being what they are), but nobody cared about it's garbage damage performance.
Staff Fighting is FORTY PAGES of complaining about the sound effects and the weapon models. MAYBE a couple of posts about the performance. MAYBE.
This is ludicrous. This is not testing. This is just "SPOILERS YAY!"
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xyzor
I'm not saying the endgame performance wasn't tested, or even tested well, by a few people. My point was that there is a fundamental flaw in the way the Beta server is set up that limits the NUMBER of players who will be able to test endgame performance. Therefore, the available data for devs to examine to see if a set is under- or over-performing, is more limited and less likely to be used as a factor in determining necessary changes.
I would be happy to test endgame level items, for example, but barely have time to lvl 50s on my live servers, let alone on the Beta. I play on Beta, but rarely get past the 30s. I suspect the majority of players on the Beta server are similar to me in their available playtime and speed of leveling. I'm not disagreeing with the more moderate parts of your argument. I agree that new sets should be in the same league as other sets, they shouldn't be vastly inferior or superior. What I disagree with is the 'sky is falling' argument that sub-par damage on a new set that is still fun and still effective (and has lots of other flexibility merits) will result in the utter annihilation of quality in the online gaming industry. We understand you feel strongly about this, and I, for one, respect that, but don't get Glenn Beck-y on us and tell us that unless we see it your way, the world is going to end. |
And this could be a legitimate 'fear' for City of Heroes, if it begins to rely on the Market more and more. Aesthetics are a dangerous thing to rely on. But, is it as fearful as the rest of the gaming industry, primarily the Triple A market? No. But it IS why I have a hatred for superficiality trumping all else. It is why I personally go for performance before aesthetics in my testing. Why?
Because a hundred people are talking about whiffle bat sounds. I'm being drowned out about performance.
Sigh.
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You are taking this far too seriously IMO.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
... Except it is. Do you think that aesthetics haven't been an issue? Do you have any idea how unsustainable the gaming market is? It must be nice. Regardless, that isn't the prime topic here, I suppose.
Your last statement is a bit of a lie, because we've seen what Closed Beta Testing has done to fix the performance of underperforming sets. We've also seen what happens when a set ISN'T properly tested by the player base (Dual Pistols iirc was a case of this?) The Open Beta VIP Testing has been abused to be nothing but a sight-seeing, data-diving aesthetics trash-fest. It's OVERWHELMED by people wanting to SEE the shiny, and not make sure it's doing as well as it SHOULD be. That is the issue. Superficiality is winning, and it should be tied. Go look at the Beast Mastery thread. The Staff Fighting thread. Beast Mastery had ZERO posts about it's damage, until I stepped in. It had some survivability concerns (because of NInjas being what they are), but nobody cared about it's garbage damage performance. Staff Fighting is FORTY PAGES of complaining about the sound effects and the weapon models. MAYBE a couple of posts about the performance. MAYBE. This is ludicrous. This is not testing. This is just "SPOILERS YAY!" |
Good luck.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
Quote:
Refusing to acknowledge the problem because you aren't taking it seriously enough, because 'It's just City of Heroes', is why you, sir, are part of the problem I am stressing.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
You are taking this far too seriously IMO.
Good luck. |
Good riddance.
Reppu you did say some things ...a lot of things in the BM thread about performance. As I recall a red letter even said yes it is in fact under performing we see this etc....
How is it then the fault of your fellow players that the devs decided not to change things when they knew they were off? The same goes for where the power for staff fighting is now as an average ST set and a average to good AOE set?
I am saying people did tell the devs in PM's and here about the performance and they the "devs" decided not to make the changes.
Stop blaming the players for the things the devs have control over and decided not to change please.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Because it was discovered too late. I didn't get enough hands-on experience with Beast Mastery. Not soon enough. I was sadly busy during the early phases of I22 Beta Testing, and such things were not bothered with.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Reppu you did say some things ...a lot of things in the BM thread about performance. As I recall a red letter even said yes it is in fact under performing we see this etc....
How is it then the fault of your fellow players that the devs decided not to change things when they knew they were off? The same goes for where the power for staff fighting is now as an average ST set and a average to good AOE set? I am saying people did tell the devs in PM's and here about the performance and they the "devs" decided not to make the changes. Stop blaming the players for the things the devs have control over and decided not to change please. |
So, I'm unfortunately partly to blame for Beast Mastery not being detected as soon as it needed to be. And once it reaches the Final Stages... it's just too late.
Staff Fighting had MONTHS. Nobody said ANYTHING. That IS the playerbase failing and only caring about getting the sounds JUST RIGHT.
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With all do respect Reppu I just don't think you are being fair. I for one made a conscious decision to PM the devs directly regarding my thoughts on certain powers. I did this at the suggestion of a buddy of mine on one of the in game chat channels. There are a lot of people on these in game channels and many of them do the same, so I really think you don't have the full view of things based only on the forums.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Because it was discovered too late. I didn't get enough hands-on experience with Beast Mastery. Not soon enough. I was sadly busy during the early phases of I22 Beta Testing, and such things were not bothered with.
So, I'm unfortunately partly to blame for Beast Mastery not being detected as soon as it needed to be. And once it reaches the Final Stages... it's just too late. Staff Fighting had MONTHS. Nobody said ANYTHING. That IS the playerbase failing and only caring about getting the sounds JUST RIGHT. |
Forums generally have about 10% of the overall population of the player base of any game. As I recall things in my experience when testing staff we ran it to mid 20's then the devs were making direct contact with people for level bumps and direct feedback.
The Arbiter that bumped my two staff guys to 50 gave me specific instructions on what to test and provide direct feedback etc... which I did. I was not the only one this happened too and many people I know noted the average st power and other concerns mentioned here.
Once again with all do respect I just think you are suffering from a bit of forumitis and need to take a step back and consider a more well rounded perspective. You have to also consider in general forums are a place for people to express that good ole dev love and that also gives a skewed perspective IMHO.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Just throwing this out there, but the idea that in a game literally played by millions of people, with a full company of developers behind it, that you are, in any way, crucial to the end results of a power set, is incredibly arrogant and a bit silly.
The fact that Beast Mastery wasn't changed because you were too busy to test it early enough is laughable.
I know it will be hard for this to not seem like a personal attack, but I truly do not mean it that way. I just want to point out that you are not the sole voice of reason in the entire CoH gaming community, which is kind of how you've characterized things thus far. I mean all of this with the utmost of respect, because I think you are still expressing your ideas in a constructive and amicable manner, which can be a rare thing around here.
You have identified some important issues, both about the powersets in question and the Beta setup in general, but they are issues that I am certain the developers know about and have the data to review. If there were serious mathematical issues with Staff's ability to compete with other sets, they would have been fixed. If they feel that the open Beta doesn't give them adequate information, I am sure they will change it. They do this for a LIVING, and we do it as a hobby (at least, I do 
). I seriously hope they spend more time thinking about these issues that we do (and expect they do).
Please do not stop testing, reviewing, and sharing your results and opinions, but please remember that yours' are only the viewpoints and experiences of one person, representative of a small subset of the overall player base.
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
I am just happy I am not hung up on having the best possible mathematical killing beast so as to not be able to make interesting, fun characters.
And I know that I am not alone.
Staff looks and feels fun. The game IMO is about relaxing and having fun, not playing the most-est, best-est killing machine.
I am well aware that playing the best machine is, in fact, what some find fun. Then find it and play it, please don't complain that every new set is not it.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45