Staff Attack Chain


Arcanaville

 

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Originally Posted by John_Printemps View Post
So at the worst 240 (which is still higher than 198).

...

200 DPS is not the highest Staff can output.
I assume you are reffering to my runs. Just as an fyi I got 228 dps later on my staff/da brute, 198 wasn't my highest. This was using PS>SR>PS>SS on a brute without utilizing the 6th slots in my attacks for extra dmg procs. I never said it was the highest dmg possible, infact I quite explicitly said both stalkers and scrappers as well as people who fine tuned it with extra damage procs would see higher dps.


As for your attack chain, I'm not sure, try it and report what ya get. I tried a chain with Mercurial but it didn't really give me better dps, the base damage is quite low on mercurial, the -res proc would not only have alot to make up for, but actually coming out positive over PS takes even more. The -res in DB works because the -res procs can already go in attacks that do good DPA whereas the -res procs in staff fit into powers with low DPA.


 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
This is why I'm baffled by the whining right here.

The set, in and of itself, solves the problems you need IOs for with other sets.

If it did that AND was a top performing set in both ST and AoE, it would be incredibly overpowered.

You are not going to get everything awesome rolled into ONE set. Just not going to happen.
Titan Weapons.

PS: You still have a post or three to respond to to me, or did you accept you were lying out of your teeth?


 

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Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
Titan Weapons.

PS: You still have a post or three to respond to to me, or did you accept you were lying out of your teeth?
You... know he was quoting Arcanaville, not you, right?


 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Apparently, average is the new worthless. Its as if the reason the devs are here is to learn new ways to make more powerful sets, and every one that isn't provably better than the rest is an error. And that's assuming that Staff is only average for single target, and I'm not sure that's been correctly established.

If the devs wanted to make each set absolutely more powerful than the last one, there's something called the decimal point that was invented a thousand years ago that makes that ridiculously easy.
Yeah, I'm really getting that vibe from the spate of Staff threads. I haven't yet decided, even based on the math and testing people are doing, what I think of the set. But even if it could use a buff, basically saying "it's worse than Titan Weapons, so I can't believe it made it out of beta" seems spectacularly nuts to me.

As an aside, no one should ever assume a paid powerset will never be nerfed. I'm not saying I want anything nerfed, or that anything should be nerfed. I am advising people to not fool themselves about whether they would be nerfed if the devs decided there was a sufficient reason to do so. It doesn't matter if you paid extra for it above and beyond a subscription. If anything the Performance Shifter fiasco is evidence that it can happen, not that the devs will run away from doing it. Paying for things like new powersets is getting you more things like new powersets than we used to get, not immunity from the nerf bat.

Quote:
I didn't think you could replicate the level of crazy involved with the original hate on Willpower, but clearly I underestimated crazy.
Always bet on crazy.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
I assume you are reffering to my runs. Just as an fyi I got 228 dps later on my staff/da brute, 198 wasn't my highest. This was using PS>SR>PS>SS on a brute without utilizing the 6th slots in my attacks for extra dmg procs. I never said it was the highest dmg possible, infact I quite explicitly said both stalkers and scrappers as well as people who fine tuned it with extra damage procs would see higher dps.


As for your attack chain, I'm not sure, try it and report what ya get. I tried a chain with Mercurial but it didn't really give me better dps, the base damage is quite low on mercurial, the -res proc would not only have alot to make up for, but actually coming out positive over PS takes even more. The -res in DB works because the -res procs can already go in attacks that do good DPA whereas the -res procs in staff fit into powers with low DPA.
Not necessarily your runs, but the fact that the majority of players who saw your "198" instantly assumed that this was the best they'd achieve and cried wolf. As you've pointed out yourself, you haven't built to the full potential of what Staff might be capable of. I merely put my post together to cumulatively collect seven pages of complaints into one rebuttal. Your follow-up pre-Fury'd time of 228 goes in line with a similar Scrapper time posted around 220 out of the gate, which is roughly around the base-line I figured Staff could naturally hover around (200-220). With the -Res manipulations I expect that to boost up to 240-260.

Mercurial itself may have a low DPA (48.66 versus Precise's 68.82, unenhanced), but its innate damage is less important if it can fire that Proc. To give an example, lets hypothetically say that the proc is going to increase the DPA of each attack by 15%. That can shift Precise up to a DPA of 79.14, a difference of 10.32. I could shift that to Mercurial and say that it was actually 58.98 DPA. Then there's Serpent's Reach: 62.56, or 71.94. I add that difference to Mercurial and say that it is now worth 68.36. I think you'd see the picture there, eventually Mercurial's benefit outweighs its low inherent DPA. This is mostly hypothetical though, everything's different in practice.

In regards to the EotS-including chain, that's per speculation as I neither have a 50 Staff somewhere, nor the desire the PL one and out-fit it just for a Theory. If someone were to want a theoretical build to play-up on Beta to crank this out, then I'd be happy to give them one (Scrapper specifically, I must promote my brethren AT).

Edit: I forgot to comment on the mention of Dual Blades having a higher base DPA for most of its attacks. This is true, and why it does 300+ DPS, but that same practice is why Staff should have the ability to reach the 250-ish range.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
Titan Weapons.

PS: You still have a post or three to respond to to me, or did you accept you were lying out of your teeth?
But TW pays for that. Easier to sustain the end use on Staff than it is on TW.

DPS of TW may be 350 comapred to Staffs 200 (making up numbers here by the way) but if you can't sustain attacking non stop andneed to pause, you're going to lower that 350 top DPS.

Now I'm sure someone has made a build that can sustain TW's DPS and has the awesome survival, but that likely limits one to a specific build.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
But TW pays for that. Easier to sustain the end use on Staff than it is on TW.

DPS of TW may be 350 comapred to Staffs 200 (making up numbers here by the way) but if you can't sustain attacking non stop andneed to pause, you're going to lower that 350 top DPS.

Now I'm sure someone has made a build that can sustain TW's DPS and has the awesome survival, but that likely limits one to a specific build.
having a slightly tighter build merits having 75% more dps?


 

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You all realize that there's always a "high water mark" somewhere...and it's usually a LONG time before that line gets passed again...in essence...it takes a flood to raise the line again.

In short, what I am saying is TW is the "high water mark" right now...that was likely the intention. It will also likely be a long time before anything comes around that is anywhere near passing it. Get used to it...remember this word - BALANCE.

There's nothing wrong with a set that has potential to do 220-240 DPS with lots of added tools that other sets don't have...so...complain about "it's not strong enough...make it like TW!!" all you want...you'll only bring in a nerf bat faster.

When they balance things, there is not usually any creep...what happens is...the outliers come closer to center. Think carefully about what you are wishing for, because you might get it in a form different from what you wanted.

-E- Let me cite previous examples...

Energy Melee
Regen (x10)
Performance Shifter SBE
Fury (I am talking about the mechanic not the ATO)
Fire Aura (Fiery Embrace)

I am certain there are many that do not even come to my mind at the moment.


Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22

 

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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
having a slightly tighter build merits having 75% more dps?
I don't recall seeing TW having 75% more DPS than SF.

Though, yes, I do think TW's heavier end use makes up for some of it's performance. The other thing making up for it's performance is it's playstyle. Notice how it's a top set and yet isn't as popular as other sets?

That's not because of concept. There's lots of players who don't play based on concept. And TW's mechanic is deffinantly not a popular one due to the one attack being so slow for most people, nevermind the fact that for the next five+ seconds they're a giant weedwhacker.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
having a slightly tighter build merits having 75% more dps?
I don't know why don't you ask Super Reflexes what it thinks abut shields.


 

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Originally Posted by Lucky666 View Post
I don't know why don't you ask Super Reflexes what it thinks abut shields.
Shields hasn't been relevant since the HO fix. Sorry to burst that bubble. Shield's natural DDR is too low, combined with it's lowest-in-game Defense values for a Defensive based set.

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Originally Posted by Kazz View Post
You... know he was quoting Arcanaville, not you, right?
I meant an entirely different thread.


 

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The funny thing is; I said the very same thing when someone said what I said to me. I'm trying to gauge what OTHER people think, and apparently the opinion that "Shield is fine, shut up" is more dominant.

Although it does have lower DDR and Base Defense Values than it really needed, it use to be a lot worse if memory serves well enough. Either way, you'll find plenty of people saying the Hami-O Exploit fix 'ruined' Shield Defense.

<--- Doesn't play Shield Defense. Thinks it looks a little too dorky with non-weapon sets, and doesn't like any of the weapon sets that can use it enough to... use it.


TL;DR - I think Shield Defense is fine, but the scant resistances and +MAX HP aren't as alluring for the weakened DDR and base defense values, since Energy Aura got buffed. It makes the closed-beta Shield Defense flaws that got somewhat adjusted, a lot more obvious in design.


 

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Shield is fine...seriously...if you want DDR, then run ageless radial as your recharge tool, take musculature alpha and slot your primary for acc/dmg and def...holes...filled.


Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22

 

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Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
Shields hasn't been relevant since the HO fix.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
TL;DR - I think Shield Defense is fine, but the scant resistances and +MAX HP aren't as alluring for the weakened DDR and base defense values, since Energy Aura got buffed. It makes the closed-beta Shield Defense flaws that got somewhat adjusted, a lot more obvious in design.
The thing about Shield is not so much its mitigation, which is very good, but also how much offense it adds.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
The thing about Shield is not so much its mitigation, which is very good, but also how much offense it adds.
This. Energy Aura is probably the strongest of the defense-based sets *defensively* in the current environment. But if you're building an offense-tuned melee, it's hard to come even close to AAO + Shield Charge for making things dead.


 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I don't recall seeing TW having 75% more DPS than SF.

Though, yes, I do think TW's heavier end use makes up for some of it's performance. The other thing making up for it's performance is it's playstyle. Notice how it's a top set and yet isn't as popular as other sets?

That's not because of concept. There's lots of players who don't play based on concept. And TW's mechanic is deffinantly not a popular one due to the one attack being so slow for most people, nevermind the fact that for the next five+ seconds they're a giant weedwhacker.
In your example you said TW's 350 dps compared to SF's 200 dps, which is 75% more dps. It wasn't really a serious comment.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
Shields hasn't been relevant since the HO fix. Sorry to burst that bubble. Shield's natural DDR is too low, combined with it's lowest-in-game Defense values for a Defensive based set.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reppu View Post

<--- Doesn't play Shield Defense. Thinks it looks a little too dorky with non-weapon sets, and doesn't like any of the weapon sets that can use it enough to... use it.


Do you always base you opinion and judge things based off of hearsay?


 

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Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
PS: You still have a post or three to respond to to me, or did you accept you were lying out of your teeth?
What, you mean when I said that 2 or more blasters or corruptors can kill an entire spawn before a scrapper can reach it to attack?

I stand by it.

You twisted what I said to make it sound like I was saying that a single corruptor was doing that, which I never said.

It did happen. A blaster and a corruptor combined were obliterating spawns before my scrapper could get to them to attack.

If you want to call me a liar, that's fine, I think personal attacks from the likes of you are amusing. But if you're going to do so, call me a liar about what I actually said, instead of twisting what I said and then calling me a liar.

I wouldn't have bothered to respond to you here, except someone else quoted you so I actually saw it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
What, you mean when I said that 2 or more blasters or corruptors can kill an entire spawn before a scrapper can reach it to attack?

I stand by it.

You twisted what I said to make it sound like I was saying that a single corruptor was doing that, which I never said.

It did happen. A blaster and a corruptor combined were obliterating spawns before my scrapper could get to them to attack.

If you want to call me a liar, that's fine, I think personal attacks from the likes of you are amusing. But if you're going to do so, call me a liar about what I actually said, instead of twisting what I said and then calling me a liar.

I wouldn't have bothered to respond to you here, except someone else quoted you so I actually saw it.
You're just baseless and twisting things yourself now. Moving on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky666 View Post
Do you always base you opinion and judge things based off of hearsay?
Let me clarify; I don't like Shield Defense. I've played, it wasn't my thing. It's a good set, at least I thought so. It's just... I don't like how limited it feels to me aesthetically.

Moreover, I can look at Shield Defense and go "Well, it sacrificed some of it's defense properties for Shield Charge and Against All Odds. That's nice."

So, my statement was right, "I don't play Shield Defense", just tag on "anymore".

I personally, and in my posting history proves it, was an advocate that Shield Defense was fine with out the Hami-O Exploit. I probably should have tried to make my post, in this thread prior, sound a bit more sarcastic, just to gauge a bit more.

Oh well. Doesn't matter.

I think Shield Defense is fine, even if I don't tend to like many of the 'Offensive Hybrid' 'Defense', as in Survivability, sets. Not Defense as the statistic.

By that I mean Fiery Aura is something I'm still musing a conceptual build for, and Shield Defense needs a different primary to interest me. Not a fan of Broadsword. Maybe a Mace/Shield Scrapper? Ho hum.

Eh, going off topic again.

Shield Defense is fine, Staff Attack Chains aren't hard to figure out, people whining about the HO fix are stupid, Blasters flawed need buffs.


 

Posted

More to the point, I didn't respond to your bating (which you seem to be a master at) before for a couple reasons:

1) I don't really care if you believe me.

2) I have better things to do with my time than argue with an internet bully.

You've earned a spot on my ignore list right next to Fire Minded and City Life, which should give anyone who remembers them a good idea how worthless I consider your opinion.

Have a nice day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

And more on topic:

After having played Staff Fighting for a little while, I haven't found it especially weak. I'm defeating things in a reasonable time span, and te defense boost from Guarded Spin helps a bit with my survivability.

I'm playing it on a DA/Staff Tanker, and I've set my difficulty to x4 at level 17 while soloing, and doing just fine with it. I have only done that one time before and done just as well, with a Claws/Fire brute. My personal experience here is telling me that Staff Fighting isn't as underpowered as some people are claiming.

Maybe it lags behind a bit in ST DPS in the late game, but its AoE output is enough to make up for that in my opinion.

Comparing a set to sets that are brokenly overpowered and saying they suck when they don't perform the same isn't a good metric of how good a set is.

Some sets do perform better, I'm not arguing that point. But what's being ignored is that Staff Fighting can do things those other sets can't. It's the only set I know of that alleviates endurance problems for sets like Dark Armor using only SOs. It's also the only set in existence that can increase your damage resistance as well as defense (which you can do consistently with enough recharge).

Using just SOs, Staff Fighting doesn't need to slot any end reduction in its powers at all, something only certain combinations can say (Regen and Willpower coming to mind with other sets). It doesn't matter what you pair it with in Staff Fighting's case. Since you don't have to slot for end reduction, you can slot another recharge reduction in your powers instead, which will increase your recharge in those powers more than Form of the Mind will. And since you're attacking faster, you should be dealing more damage in the long run than Form of the Body's damage buff will achieve.

Slotted with just SOs (which, believe it or not, the game is still balanced around), Staff Fighting's utility powers actually DO make up for dealing less damage than the best performing sets. Saying it sucks at the absolute bleeding edge of performance isn't accurately representing the majority of the people's experience playing it, because 90% of the people playing it are not going to reach that level of performance in the first place.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
After having played Staff Fighting for a little while, I haven't found it especially weak. I'm defeating things in a reasonable time span, and te defense boost from Guarded Spin helps a bit with my survivability.
Very much agreed. I have been perhaps a poor team player by racing forward to the next spawn and starting to work on them solo because I exepect to be able to survive doing so, even with the mission difficulty set somewhat higher.

Quote:
Using just SOs, Staff Fighting doesn't need to slot any end reduction in its powers at all, something only certain combinations can say (Regen and Willpower coming to mind with other sets). It doesn't matter what you pair it with in Staff Fighting's case. Since you don't have to slot for end reduction, you can slot another recharge reduction in your powers instead, which will increase your recharge in those powers more than Form of the Mind will. And since you're attacking faster, you should be dealing more damage in the long run than Form of the Body's damage buff will achieve.
I am beginning to wonder if Electric Armor is not the best secondary for for Staff Fighting. This may be "grass is greener" buyer's regret for having gone Willpower (Edit: Let me note I am very happy with Willpower), but look at what Electric Armor brings to the table: a damage aura, decent psionic resist, a heal, endurace cost reduction, recharge boost, endurance gain (self)/drain (enemies), and you're basically immune to energy attacks and endurance drain.

Running Form of the Mind in combination with Lightning Reflexes is like have 1.6 recharge reduction SOs slotted. If you add in Hasten it is like having 3.7 recharge SOs slotted while ignoring ED. And this is before you consider slotting recharge reduction in any of your powers. Of course you'lll be consuming endurance like crazy but you have Power Sink to replenish you, which due to all the recharge you're packing along with you slotting it up will probably be up quite often. And for whatever damage you take, Energize will not only be healing you but reducing your endurance costs for 30s at a time.


Under construction

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Snip
Just another rusty tool who can't back up their claims for demanding Scrapper (AoE) buffs and using their lack of skill as to why Corruptor/Blaster/Defender sets are fine and Scrappers are in a bad place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erratic View Post
Very much agreed. I have been perhaps a poor team player by racing forward to the next spawn and starting to work on them solo because I exepect to be able to survive doing so, even with the mission difficulty set somewhat higher.



I am beginning to wonder if Electric Armor is not the best secondary for for Staff Fighting. This may be "grass is greener" buyer's regret for having gone Willpower (Edit: Let me note I am very happy with Willpower), but look at what Electric Armor brings to the table: a damage aura, decent psionic resist, a heal, endurace cost reduction, recharge boost, endurance gain (self)/drain (enemies), and you're basically immune to energy attacks and endurance drain.

Running Form of the Mind in combination with Lightning Reflexes is like have 1.6 recharge reduction SOs slotted. If you add in Hasten it is like having 3.7 recharge SOs slotted while ignoring ED. And this is before you consider slotting recharge reduction in any of your powers. Of course you'lll be consuming endurance like crazy but you have Power Sink to replenish you, which due to all the recharge you're packing along with you slotting it up will probably be up quite often. And for whatever damage you take, Energize will not only be healing you but reducing your endurance costs for 30s at a time.
As an Staff/Elec Stalker, I can vouch how good it is.

On the other hand, enjoy spending a few billion influence on survivability?