I have to side with Reppu here. Primary and Secondary balance has always been a goal of the scrapper forums. Getting the devs to change under-performing sets is difficult at best and has, in the past, required a certain level of forum and player momentum to get going. It will probably be much harder now since the focus of the teams will probably be on new sets for sale.
If we are discussing set balance, and a set is under-performing, then it should get fixed. If people have numerical or design information to contribute about the performance then that's cool. But coming to the thread and declaring that the set looks cool so attempts at balance should be ignore are just derailing the thread.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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I included my comment at the end to specifically make sure I wasn't giving off a 'shut up' vibe. Your opinion and feedback is very important, as you obviously care enough to dig deeper than most and push hard for fixes to things you perceive as problems. I am sure your comment wasn't directed just at me, because there were some 'shut up' posts aimed at you in this thread, but I wanted to make sure you knew that *I* was not saying that to you.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
You'd be surprised at what one voice can accomplish. And even more surprised at what happens when that one voice is told they don't matter, and opt to be silent.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Sorry. You're wrong there. It's not arrogance, not in the least. It's simple fact. If I had stirred up the community sooner, Beast Mastery may have been in better shape. Would have? I can't say for certain. COULD have? Yes, I can say that.
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- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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Possibly, but I did accomplish a stir in the community to actually care about it's performance. It was, sadly, too late. It's not arrogance when it actually happened, I'd say.|
Originally Posted by Xyzor
I included my comment at the end to specifically make sure I wasn't giving off a 'shut up' vibe. Your opinion and feedback is very important, as you obviously care enough to dig deeper than most and push hard for fixes to things you perceive as problems. I am sure your comment wasn't directed just at me, because there were some 'shut up' posts aimed at you in this thread, but I wanted to make sure you knew that *I* was not saying that to you.
For what it's worth, the above comment is a pretty classic example of arrogance. It might not be unwarranted (I don't think arguing about whether it is justified is worthwhile), but it is arrogant, all the same. Granted, this is a pointless tangent about semantics, but for some reason, I am still writing it (probably an example of my own arrogance!)... |
Either way, semantics.
I love the fact that you think Beast Mastery is underperforming because you didn't get enough time to beta, narcissist much?
Players, in all betas have given tons of constructive criticism, but due to scheduling constraints the devs can't always give them the attention they need. You cite Dual Pistols as evidence of this. Many, many players pointed out DP's deficincies, from the overt style to the damage. The devs have heard this and plan to someday look into it.
Style and performance are both equally important to a new powerset, arguing for an improvement to either is fine, but declaring that all other players are sabotaging the entire game industry while you stand alone in the gap is pretty funny, so please continue.
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See? This is pretty arrogant.
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Originally Posted by Lightslinger
I love the fact that you think Beast Mastery is underperforming because you didn't get enough time to beta, narcissist much?
Players, in all betas have given tons of constructive criticism, but due to scheduling constraints the devs can't always give them the attention they need. You cite Dual Pistols as evidence of this. Many, many players pointed out DP's deficincies, from the overt style to the damage. The devs have heard this and plan to someday look into it. Style and performance are both equally important to a new powerset, arguing for an improvement to either is fine, but declaring that all other players are sabotaging the entire game industry while you stand alone in the gap is pretty funny, so please continue. |
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I didn't once display an exxageraged sense of my own importance or abilities, please elaborate on how i'm the arrogant one here.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
See? This is pretty arrogant.
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You did. You spoke in absolutes. That's arrogance.
Even I left room for error on my half. You didn't.
Arrogance.
/semantics
Arrogance: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arrogant?s=t
/endsemantics
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
Well, speaking in absolutes is self-importance, no?
Semantics!
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I pretty much agreed with you on the point that style isn't all that matters. I just also added that both style and DPS are important to balance. I also mocked a few things you said, there is that.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
You did. You spoke in absolutes. That's arrogance.
Even I left room for error on my half. You didn't. Arrogance. |
Also, speaking in absolutes doesn't make you arrogant, it makes you a Sith. Not sure what you mean by that.
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Well, I think a lot of your posts trump his in self-importance, to be fair.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Well, speaking in absolutes is self-importance, no?
Semantics! |
But anyway, let's move on to something even more important, ME!!!
I am going to roll either a Staff/EA Scrapper or Staff/Electric Brute. I am leaning towards the Brute, but what are your thoughts, fellow Scrapper enthusiasts?
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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Don't underestimate my ego and self importance, it's a key part of being a superhero, and in real life I'm kind of a big deal |
Originally Posted by Xyzor
Well, I think a lot of your posts trump his in self-importance, to be fair.
But anyway, let's move on to something even more important, ME!!! I am going to roll either a Staff/EA Scrapper or Staff/Electric Brute. I am leaning towards the Brute, but what are your thoughts, fellow Scrapper enthusiasts? |
I'm with you on going Brute for Staff, I'm personally thinking Staff/Dark or /Regen. I really want another Scrapper but I keep running into a recurring problem; some sets are just better on Brutes and I cant stand runners, so my secondary has to have a taunt.
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Pretty sure the Sith were oozing with arrogance! Or were they conceited?|
Originally Posted by Lightslinger
I pretty much agreed with you on the point that style isn't all that matters. I just also added that both style and DPS are important to balance. I also mocked a few things you said, there is that.
Also, speaking in absolutes doesn't make you arrogant, it makes you a Sith. Not sure what you mean by that. |
... I hated Star Wars.
Either way, you were mocking and that wasn't needed. You could have done with out it, and everything would have been better. Either way, moving on, I say.
AND BOTH OF YOU AND YOUR BROOT OBSESSION!
Blasphemy.
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Nope that is revisionist. People repeatedly said they agreed with you on the performance and not the over the top way you were delivering it.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I think I'm being entirely fair. I ended up biting my tongue about Beast Mastery because I was told I was wrong. Funny how that ended up not being the case, right? The playerbase as a whole on the forums can be wrong. And many were. I, and a few others, were right; Beast Mastery was a damn mess.
So, let me ask this. You said a dev directly asked you to test Staff Fighting. What were the criteria you were assigned? Humor me, because I want to do a little match up here. And it was Open Beta. You were not under an NDA so you should be able to tell me. |
In reference to Staff, the instructions were to go to DA and give feedback on the contact arcs and how well the set did vs the baddies there.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
That is why I feel responsible. I WAS too late.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I've wanted to try a dmg aura and resist set for a while (my main is DM/Regen), and I like the concept of Electric, which seems to be much better for a Brute than for a Scrapper. Plus, I heard somewhere that Staff is low on the DPS , so a Fury-boosted dmg aura might be a nice equalizer.
Plus, with all of the dmg bonuses from forms not having crit potential, the general Fury dmg boost seems like a nice advantage.
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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You are dead to me.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I hated Star Wars.
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- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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Correction: Hated the prequels.
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Originally Posted by Xyzor
You are dead to me.
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nitpick: City of Heroes is not played by "millions of people," as much as I wish it were. More like a few hundred thousand. :P
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Originally Posted by Xyzor
Just throwing this out there, but the idea that in a game literally played by millions of people, with a full company of developers behind it, that you are, in any way, crucial to the end results of a power set, is incredibly arrogant and a bit silly.
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Not dead after all, hurray!!!
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Correction: Hated the prequels.
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- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
After comparing this set to others, staff looks pitifully underpowered on brutes and scrappers vs. just about anything. I'm shocked that it didn't seem to come up in the beta forums. How the devs could claim that staff is on par with something like titan weapons defies logic. I'm guessing they overvalued the rather pitiful secondary abilities vs. what the primary value of an offensive power set is - damage.
The only hope for this set is stalkers, thanks to the fact they get body for free along with build up, and can add AS to their chains. The aoe's on this set better benefit massively from the 2' added range, or this is going to be a fail of a set on the order of dual pistols.
I can understand not wanting to make each set better than the last, but c'mon, at least make it competitive, especially when you're selling them now. I'd suggest adding a bit of damage to sky splitter and one of the lower tier single target powers.
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Everyone hating on Reppu is ignoring his post above, quoting Dread Shinobi's testing. This is pathetic dps for a purpled-out T4 reactive scrapper. People were beating this DPS on scrappers before incarnate powers and PPM procs. It should be at least in the 300+ range to be competitive with other sets.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
The 'standard' should be 'competitive to the best'. That is all it needs to be. A new set should be 'competitive'. It does not have to 'win'. It does not have to 'lose'. It simply needs to be in the race. That is what I want, and what I feel should be strived for in testing. Competitiveness, not Outlier.
It's almost like if you're seen asking for buffs, you obviously want an Overpowered Outlier. Ludicrous. Also, Staff was tested at 50 with the BEST IOs in the game (IE: PPM Procs off the market). 200 DPS on a Scrapper. That's pathetic. Yes, it was the best chain, too. Yes, it was an overly impossibly expensive build. In fact, it's in this thread, even. |
I tested staff but only had time to get up to lvl 18. Lack of level bumps at available resources held me back. I concur that most of the comments in the Staff thread were aesthetics.
You may not like Reppu's delivery but it's really hard to argue with this message, that the set underperforms. Making it perform better or on par with higher end sets won't change the aesthetics or anything ppl like about it.
With the projected dps shortfall I wouldnt bother even buying the set - shame was looking
forward to it.
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Lol, there are five chains better than that one for stalkers.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
PS>SR>AS>SS should be the best the stalker staff chain.
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MB-GS-AS-SS
MB-PS-AS-SS
PS-GS-AS-SS
MB-SR-AS-SS
SR-GS-AS-SS
With appropriate -res procs where possible.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
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I strongly suggest trying it out yourself on BETA unless the only thing you are interested in is the absolute top min/max.
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Originally Posted by Stonefist
With the projected dps shortfall I wouldnt bother even buying the set - shame was looking
forward to it. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Forums generally have about 10% of the overall population of the player base of any game. As I recall things in my experience when testing staff we ran it to mid 20's then the devs were making direct contact with people for level bumps and direct feedback.
The Arbiter that bumped my two staff guys to 50 gave me specific instructions on what to test and provide direct feedback etc... which I did. I was not the only one this happened too and many people I know noted the average st power and other concerns mentioned here.
Once again with all do respect I just think you are suffering from a bit of forumitis and need to take a step back and consider a more well rounded perspective. You have to also consider in general forums are a place for people to express that good ole dev love and that also gives a skewed perspective IMHO.
So, let me ask this. You said a dev directly asked you to test Staff Fighting. What were the criteria you were assigned? Humor me, because I want to do a little match up here.
And it was Open Beta. You were not under an NDA so you should be able to tell me.
The fact that Beast Mastery wasn't changed because you were too busy to test it early enough is laughable.
I know it will be hard for this to not seem like a personal attack, but I truly do not mean it that way. I just want to point out that you are not the sole voice of reason in the entire CoH gaming community, which is kind of how you've characterized things thus far.
You have identified some important issues, both about the powersets in question and the Beta setup in general, but they are issues that I am certain the developers know about and have the data to review. If there were serious mathematical issues with Staff's ability to compete with other sets, they would have been fixed. If they feel that the open Beta doesn't give them adequate information, I am sure they will change it. They do this for a LIVING, and we do it as a hobby (at least, I do
Please do not stop testing, reviewing, and sharing your results and opinions, but please remember that yours' are only the viewpoints and experiences of one person, representative of a small subset of the overall player base.
Sorry. You're wrong there. It's not arrogance, not in the least. It's simple fact. If I had stirred up the community sooner, Beast Mastery may have been in better shape. Would have? I can't say for certain. COULD have? Yes, I can say that.
That is why I feel responsible. I WAS too late.