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Was the TW/SR Brute using Incarnate abilties? As for the SS/Fire/Soul...I'd consider that an outlier case, top of the line (and as mentioned likely using gloom).|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
My TW/SR Brute was getting 345dps on average (with some runs of 355dps).
Tommy just posted his SS/Fire/Soul took down a pylon in 2.30, which is 383.5dps. |
Now I know I prefere to see sets have decent DPS when fully IOed out (not including Incarnates), so it's not like I want to see Staff come in and be bottom of the list. And likely like to see it somewhere in the upper middle (doesnt have to be top 5), buuut, I wonder if it's added survival may be a reason for it (Defense Power and a way to give +Resist) being lower.
Basically, Id just like to get all the numbers known first to know where it stands and not base it on one Brutes run (no offense to the one Brutes run though).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
T4 Reactive, and I Believe T3 agility.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Was the TW/SR Brute using Incarnate abilties? As for the SS/Fire/Soul...I'd consider that an outlier case, top of the line (and as mentioned likely using gloom).
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Shinobi's brute had T4 Reactive and I think agility too.
My Claws/SR brute was getting 196 dps before T4 Reactive and 244 dps with T4 Reactive. That's BEFORE the Brute's Fury ATO, which would up that a meaningful amount more.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...33#post3861133
So before we say it's all OP'd TW or SS/Rage/Fire/Soul synergy, my guess is Claws/SR would be pushing 260 with the fury proc. 198 from staff with T4 Reactive and the fury proc is not nearly as good.
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Again, TW is the obvious outlier, as well as the SS/Fire pairing. Find any other SS brute build in the pylon thread, you will not see these kinds of numbers. Comparing the set to the two outliers as "standards" is silly. Honestly, though people may not like it, this is more of a story of TW needing a nerf and rage needing to only work on powers within it's own set (as in, not gloom and not burn).
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Originally Posted by Granite Agent
My TW/SR Brute was getting 345dps on average (with some runs of 355dps).
Tommy just posted his SS/Fire/Soul took down a pylon in 2.30, which is 383.5dps. |
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Quote:
I disagree on that. But I don't mind the outliers or Rage working how it does. But then everyone seems to compare average to the best.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Again, TW is the obvious outlier, as well as the SS/Fire pairing. Find any other SS brute build in the pylon thread, you will not see these kinds of numbers. Comparing the set to the two outliers as "standards" is silly. Honestly, though people may not like it, this is more of a story of TW needing a nerf and rage needing to only work on powers within it's own set (as in, not gloom and not burn).
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But then I might be guilty of comparing average to upper middle. *so wants DP improved*
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Yeh but see my later post of my Claws/SR doing 244 dps with T4 Reactive (196dps before Reactive), which I think would go to like 260 if it had included the Brute ATO fury proc. Shinobi's had both. |
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Again, TW is the obvious outlier, as well as the SS/Fire pairing. Find any other SS brute build in the pylon thread, you will not see these kinds of numbers. Comparing the set to the two outliers as "standards" is silly. Honestly, though people may not like it, this is more of a story of TW needing a nerf and rage needing to only work on powers within it's own set (as in, not gloom and not burn).
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260 is meaningfully better than 198.
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But he also didnt use the best chain by the sounds of it. Did you use thebest Claws chain?|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Yeh but see my later post of my Claws/SR doing 244 dps with T4 Reactive, which I think would go to like 260 if it had included the Brute ATO fury proc. Shinobi's had both.
260 is meaningfully better than 198. |
Need the answers
Need more testing. But I don't think full testing will be done untill later. 
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I was hoping I'd made it apparent enough but by garbled hearsay I meant that people read Shinobi's post about his staff brute and it somehow became about a staff scrapper even though it was just a series of re-quotes over and over through the thread. I mean no offense, I simply mean to point out that that was a pretty ludicrous situation. When the entire "staff sucks!" argument boiled down to quoting one guy's non-specific anecdote, the least we could do is ensure we got that right.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
And knowing shin, I'll take his 'garbled hearsay' over yours any day - what is your experience with the set, or are you just blindly defending it?
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Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by Oliin
I'm just saying, even when power creep exists, there's no really good reason to just barrel on into more power creep until eventually Titan Weapons ans Street Justics are just average.
I'd much rather they add power-sets into the game, shoot for average and then nerf or buff outliers as needed. It's not going to provide people with an endless cycle of FOTM powersets, but it's also not going to fall into a cycle of endless power creep either. |
To me, it doesn't sound like this thread is giving credence to a buff for Staff... it sounds more like a needed nerf to StJ and Titan. But that's just me?
Quote:
Probably, but do you honestly see the devs nerfing two paid-for sets? Just look at how much of an outcry there was over the SBE Performance Shifter proc getting nerfed (read: fixed) because of the fact that they paid extra for it.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
This.
To me, it doesn't sound like this thread is giving credence to a buff for Staff... it sounds more like a needed nerf to StJ and Titan. But that's just me? |
The unfortunate reality of Street Justice and Titan Weapons being paid-for sets makes them significantly less likely to see nerfs, because neither development nor marketing is going to want to deal with people threatening to sue them or complain to the BBB or whatever over what they perceive (incorrectly) as a bait and switch.
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Well it's not me. I don't mind there being outliers. For one, part of what makes those outliers is a combo of two sets.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
This.
To me, it doesn't sound like this thread is giving credence to a buff for Staff... it sounds more like a needed nerf to StJ and Titan. But that's just me? |
Maybe not in the case of TW, but I don't mind there being a top set.
What makes SS/FA so awesome is what the two powersets can do together, especially with added Fury.
StJ isn't a top set for Scrappers, it's a top set for Stalkers. With Scrappers, the tests showed it to be equal to MA in terms of ST DPS. As for AOE, there's still people who prefere MA's PBAOE over StJ's Targeted AOE and Cone.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Well in response to that, Reiska, I'll go back to something I said earlier in the thread. Titan weapons isn't as big of a deal as SS because titan weapons is primarily good in terms of performance but bizarre in terms of concept and look. SS is pretty much equally overpowered yet it fits a massive array of concepts. It's one of the defining sets of the entire genre. Combine that with OP and you have a problem. Combine weird giant anime swords with similar imbalance and you have a problem in a parallel universe where people are going to put the same amount of effort into a set they can't relate to.
On the topic of this thread, I would say staff fighting is actually a rather more relatable theme than titan weapons. I expect to see more staff fighters than titan weaponistas in the long run regardless of how well it performs.
As to the performance shifter PPM, it seems to me that the outcry over that was completely and cynically overblown in a last ditch attempt to somehow change the devs' attitude regarding balance in general. Last I looked the people arguing against the nerf took the position that they might some day want the existing PPMs so depriving them of that potentiality was cruel and unusual. In other words, nerf TW tomorrow y'all.
So I worked on my build a bit more and did another run. I added Assault, removed my need to cast Barrier, and started my run at 70% fury (my 198 was starting at 0%) among a few other things. The chain was still PS>SR>PS>SS.
I got 227.41 dps. (6:25). This could be improved if I added makos bite procs to Precise Strike and Sky Splitter and a SBE Decimation proc to Serpents reach, i may or may not do another run later with those but it would mean cutting out some IOs that I would normally have in my build, and I don't think making those sacrifices just to pump up my dps a little makes for an accurate view of Staff's DPS.
227.41 is better than before, but it's still quite low. Most other sets are still going to be eating staff alive in dps.
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that 227 is about where I was with Dual Blades/WP build set to run BF-> Attack Vitals-> Repeat with t4 Reactive.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
So I worked on my build a bit more and did another run. I added Assault, removed my need to cast Barrier, and started my run at 70% fury (my 198 was starting at 0%) among a few other things. The chain was still PS>SR>PS>SS.
I got 227.41 dps. (6:25). This could be improved if I added makos bite procs to Precise Strike and Sky Splitter and a SBE Decimation proc to Serpents reach, i may or may not do another run later with those but it would mean cutting out some IOs that I would normally have in my build, and I don't think making those sacrifices just to pump up my dps a little makes for an accurate view of Staff's DPS. 227.41 is better than before, but it's still quite low. Most other sets are still going to be eating staff alive in dps. |
Not sure what the difference would be with a DB/SR running the best chain for DPS (but I dont recall BF-AV being that far below).
But you're also using a chain that it would seem many consider not the best for SF, or is it in fact the better chain in the long run?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I mentioned before that I did use a build with a procced out Mercurial Blow, it did not provide better dps than the PS>SR>PS>SS chain. Also my build has 105% global rchg before hasten, which is slightly more rchg than needed for the chain I use, but is still relatively high. Also Micro was talking about Stalkers, my toon is a brute.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
But you're also using a chain that it would seem many consider not the best for SF, or is it in fact the better chain in the long run?
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Is it really most? Battle Axe, Stone, Broadsword, Spines, Electric? Is staff going to fall into the middle area around Katana? The numbers I am seeing do not make me think Staff is an outlier on the low end, rather it falls nicely into average territory. Certainly not the set to go to for best single target DPS, but it also does not seem like it will be getting eaten alive by most other choices.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Most other sets are still going to be eating staff alive in dps.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
I'd have to dig through the rikti pylon thread to find posted times. Thing is though I'm not even sure there have been posted times for all those sets cause the people who build toons for maximizing ST dps, ie the people posting times in the rikti pylon thread don't really use those powersets. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Is it really most? Battle Axe, Stone, Broadsword, Spines, Electric? Is staff going to fall into the middle area around Katana? The numbers I am seeing do not make me think Staff is an outlier on the low end, rather it falls nicely into average territory. Certainly not the set to go to for best single target DPS, but it also does not seem like it will be getting eaten alive by most other choices.
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But I'm not really up to digging through the pylon thread, it's mostly a mess at this point, and really lost it's use as a referential point for dps comparisons between sets just cause of it's sheer size.
>_> you guys should try it out with a stalker...what? <_<
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I sincerely hope that being a paid for set has no bearing on correcting a set when it is over-performing. I have no idea what the actual likelihood is though.
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Originally Posted by Reiska
Probably, but do you honestly see the devs nerfing two paid-for sets? Just look at how much of an outcry there was over the SBE Performance Shifter proc getting nerfed (read: fixed) because of the fact that they paid extra for it.
The unfortunate reality of Street Justice and Titan Weapons being paid-for sets makes them significantly less likely to see nerfs, because neither development nor marketing is going to want to deal with people threatening to sue them or complain to the BBB or whatever over what they perceive (incorrectly) as a bait and switch. |
Quote:
Still worse than Dual Blades for ST and AoE.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
>_> you guys should try it out with a stalker...what? <_<
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StJ for ST and I'm willing to argue AoE because Eye of the Storm isn't anything but Radius.
ELM for ST and AoE (Yeah, ELM got a huge spike due to the AS change, since it was Above Average/Good ST with no Power Hitter. It got a Power Hitter).
Worse ST than MA, but has AoE so that's fair.
Worse ST and AoE than Kinetic Melee.
And that's it for Top Tier.
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Go right ahead. The only reason I'm actually able to test it out on the brute was cause that's the toon I got level bumped on beta (which got 1-50'd cause I asked for the bump on the first day of i23 beta specifically to test the magi trial and hybrid slot with it as well). Testing it out on a Stalker would require getting another toon level bumped, and they're not doing 1-50 bumps anymore.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
>_> you guys should try it out with a stalker...what? <_<
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I had hope for SF...it seems strong in the early levels...oh well. I'll just focus on using it for my Staff/Dark brute.
Quote:
I know...and i refuse to level another toon to 50 on beta.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Go right ahead. The only reason I'm actually able to test it out on the brute was cause that's the toon I got level bumped on beta (which got 1-50'd cause I asked for the bump on the first day of i23 beta specifically to test the magi trial and hybrid slot with it as well). Testing it out on a Stalker would require getting another toon level bumped, and they're not doing 1-50 bumps anymore.
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Wait, why are we saying Street Fighting is too good? It's almost exactly balanced with my Martial Arts. Maybe a touch better AoE at the cost of the rogue combo point system, which I consider a disad.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Quote:
We're saying it's not. Quite the opposite.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Wait, why are we saying Street Fighting is too good? It's almost exactly balanced with my Martial Arts. Maybe a touch better AoE at the cost of the rogue combo point system, which I consider a disad.
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My DB/WP Scrapper was only getting about maaaaybe 20 more DPS than that.
Last I recall, Brutes generally did less DPS than Scrappers when it came to attack chains that didn't involve using Gloom.
In fact, I don't remember there being a weapon set on Brutes that wasn't better on Scrappers, with the exception of Claws, which had to be ported with Brutes in mind, and even then I recall Scrappers still winning (barely) in ST DPS, while Brutes were top in the AOE for Claws.
I'm curious to see the Scrapper time, with them doing better on the +DMG bonuses than Brutes.
And of course Stalkers win out on ST DPS, new Assassin Strike should assure that, not to mention Form of Body free, with BU use!
So it'd be best to see those numbers (IOed Scrapper no Incarnate) even if it's going by MIDs, which hasnt even put out SF yet to check out.
Tommy just posted his SS/Fire/Soul took down a pylon in 2.30, which is 383.5dps.