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Game of Thrones ALL BOOK SPOILERS (Up to Dance with Dragons)

Aett_Thorn

By Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-04-12 11:47 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant View Post
He's made mistakes certainly, but I'd cut him some slack.
The first couple times I definitely cut him some slack, no doubt. In the fight with the white walkers he needed to do what he did, fair enough. However, now he just does it so he can walk around, because he's bored, because he wants to play with the other kids. It's not like he's unaware of how completely terrifying the experience is for Hodor, he just doesn't care.

 

Posted

I see your point, but would argue with the Bran "just doesn't care" line. He knows what he's doing is wrong and feels guilty everytime he does it.

@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalMaden View Post
I see your point, but would argue with the Bran "just doesn't care" line. He knows what he's doing is wrong and feels guilty everytime he does it.
Daenerys will probably feel a brief pang of guilt when her dragons eat him too, at which point I will cheer.

Either that or Bran will see the dragons, take control of Drogon and kill all the Lannisters. Now there's a song of ice and fire!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwork O1 View Post
Either that or Bran will see the dragons, take control of Drogon and kill all the Lannisters. Now there's a song of ice and fire!
That' is one of the first things I thought of when he gained the ability to move outside the wolf.

Granted I'm sure taking a dragon would be rather difficult, heh but who else other than Bran would be capable. There's also that whole wings complex.

As far as him taking Hodor - Hodor freaked out at first, but I thought it covered the fact that he knows it's Bran now and doesn't do that anymore -- or is it he's just numb to it and doesn't fight. Eh it's a gray area for me, but I don't totally hate him for it.


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Posted

Anyone else ever wonder if Azhor Ahi or Rhaegar's "the Prince that was Promised" could be more than just one person?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwork O1 View Post
(Note how the folks who fail to be true to who they are tend to meet with misery?)
Makes me wonder what you think will happen with Arya Stark...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApeChild View Post
Anyone else ever wonder if Azhor Ahi or Rhaegar's "the Prince that was Promised" could be more than just one person?
It's almost a repeat of "Clash of Kings" since they are practically the same in terms of convergence; so who truely is it?

Also have to keep in mind the Ice side >_>


Issue 24 PPM Calculator // The Great Makeover: The Vindicators

 

Posted

Also does anyone question whether or not John Snow being brought back to life (if he has in fact died) by Melisandra is a good thing? I mean it hasn't seemed to have had a real positive effect on the others two who've been brought back from the dead.

Although Melisandra dose claim being at the Wall makes her powers stronger and I think the prologue of a Dance of Dragons has some importance to John's fate at the end of the book.

Arkyaeon...I've a theory that both John and Danny, with possibly a third Targaryen (who may be Young Griff/ Aeon, though I'm leaning towards him being the Mummer's Dragon and there for a imposter) could be Azhor Ahi together. The Dragon must have three heads after all...and I find it odd that Ice was reforged into two swords with an unusual fire-like hue to the blades.

Discuss

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkyaeon View Post
Makes me wonder what you think will happen with Arya Stark...
Well, Arya seems to be the one Stark willing to do/sacrifice whatever is necessary to achieve her goals, it bodes well for her in the long run. However, I believe she will get close to her goal, but because she's one of the faceless men (women?) she'll be tragically killed by someone who should be her ally, probably by a member of her own family who doesn't realize it's her at the time.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwork O1 View Post
Well, Arya seems to be the one Stark willing to do/sacrifice whatever is necessary to achieve her goals, it bodes well for her in the long run. However, I believe she will get close to her goal, but because she's one of the faceless men (women?) she'll be tragically killed by someone who should be her ally, probably by a member of her own family who doesn't realize it's her at the time.
I've read that Arya is one of Martin's wife's favorite characters, so I'm hopeful that she'll survive to the end.

I do think you're being a bit hard on the Stark kids in general. They're so young! Robb was, what, fifteen when he was killed? They haven't had a lot of time or opportunity to develop good judgment yet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApeChild View Post
Also does anyone question whether or not John Snow being brought back to life (if he has in fact died) by Melisandra is a good thing? I mean it hasn't seemed to have had a real positive effect on the others two who've been brought back from the dead.
First off, I think Melissandre has been getting more powerful as the dragons get bigger and magic is returning to the world more strongly. She ain't no Thoros of Myr, so I think she should be able to do a proper resurrection.

Secondly, at least in Kat's case she was dead for a while. If M gets to Jon soon enough, I think we can expect much better results.

Third, Jon's emerging Warg powers probably help with returning from the dead.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwork O1 View Post
Well, Arya seems to be the one Stark willing to do/sacrifice whatever is necessary to achieve her goals, it bodes well for her in the long run. However, I believe she will get close to her goal, but because she's one of the faceless men (women?) she'll be tragically killed by someone who should be her ally, probably by a member of her own family who doesn't realize it's her at the time.
I have no intention of reading the rest of the books (Game of Thrones was good, but not to my tastes in fantasy) so I don't mind but... you're kind of cluttering up the dev digest with spoilers.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad View Post
I have no intention of reading the rest of the books (Game of Thrones was good, but not to my tastes in fantasy) so I don't mind but... you're kind of cluttering up the dev digest with spoilers.
You should read the thread title first?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkyaeon View Post
You should read the thread title first?
The dev digest has previewed the first few lines of any redname post for a while now. It's not a matter of clicking the thread - it's a matter of not needing to.

Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."

 

Posted

Thanks to Clockwork01 for posting here, thus bringing this thread to my attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwork O1 View Post
Well, Arya seems to be the one Stark willing to do/sacrifice whatever is necessary to achieve her goals, it bodes well for her in the long run. However, I believe she will get close to her goal, but because she's one of the faceless men (women?) she'll be tragically killed by someone who should be her ally, probably by a member of her own family who doesn't realize it's her at the time.
At that point, I will cheer. I have a deep and abiding loathing for Arya for a lot of reasons. But personally, I'm expecting her to kill Tyrion or, less likely, Danaerys (due to believing he did something he didn't), then either die accidentally herself or wander off to do more spunky girl assassinating because it's "edgy" and "realistic." (See why I don't like this character?) Counterintuitively, Sansa is the Stark I like best, because I can practically feel her author's contempt for her. I always feel sorry for characters when they're being pushed around by their gods.

Also regarding to Clockwork01's statement, the notion of sacrifcing whatever must be done to achieve one's goals, while it's apparently a near-proxy for the supposedly nonexistent "good" for Martin, is kind of a creepy thing in my view, especially in the characters intended to be sympathetic. (I can forgive the Ironborn or Lannisters for this sort of thing; different rules apply to antagonists.) It should be noted that unlike most people who talk to me about these books or the TV show, who are still mooning over the death of Ned Stark, I loathed and despised the guy for his obsessive devotion to his ideals at the expense of everything. It was only when he agreed to back off in order to save his family that I actually started to like him.

Has anyone in this thread considered that Danaerys rather than Jon Snow might be the reincarnation of whathisname, as well as the Prince That Was Promised?

Oh, speaking of Jon Snow, I assumed up until recently that we'd get some kind of interesting story about his origins. After all, it's radically out of character for Ned Stark to father an illegitimate child. I had always suspected that he was not Ned Stark's son, but his nephew, the son of Ned's dead sister and the prince of Targaryen. (For a particularly satisfying twist, what if the relationship wasn't a hostile abuction, but a secret marriage accepted by both the parties? Notice that this gives Jon one of the strongest legal claims to the Iron Throne.) However, since Martin's point with the story seems to be, "Things happen completely at random, there's no plan, ooh, ontological riff ontological riff ontological riff," encapsulated in the oft-repeated "This is not a story," I've come to believe this is highly unlikely.

I also assume Jon will live on at least temporarily in Ghost's body, possibly to be popped into another one (maybe by Bran?) eventually.

For an ultimate resolution to the series, I'd like to see Jon killed off heroically in some spectacular mess, probably at King's Landing, trying to fight the Others or the Grey Death or whatever. (The Arya-kills-someone-by-mistake is presumably going on in the background. Maybe she'll kill Jon by mistake.) After this, Danaerys steps ashore, somebody from one of the other factions swears loyalty to her and says something like, "We are finished. This winter will end the world." Dany says, "Today is the first day of spring," Drogon flies overhead, The End, Acknowledgements. I doubt this is "edgy" or "realistic" enough for our author, though.

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Posted

There's a lot of... anger, in this post, that I'm not going to touch. I just wanted to note that this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olantern View Post
However, since Martin's point with the story seems to be, "Things happen completely at random, there's no plan, ooh, ontological riff ontological riff ontological riff,"
is completely counter to my experience with the series. Nothing, so far, has happened completely at random. Everything, imho, seems to be the logical consequences of previous actions.

That's actually what I really like about GRRMs style of writing. He doesn't seem to push anyone around out of spite, or protect someone because they are his "wife's favourite". Whatever happens, happens for reasons that makes sense in context.

I guess we have wildly different impressions of the books.

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=][=

 

Posted

The theory of Jon Snows parentage being Rheagar and Lyanna is a very common and overly explored theory. And one I believe is true. I'll post my arguments here at some point in the thread.

I'd also disagree that randomness is a cornerstone to Martins writing. Quite the contrary. Every word and passage has meaning and is leading to something. A character mentioned in passing at a feast in Book 1 becomes a major player in Book 3. Family lines, motivations, poems, prophecies, songs, even some of the food eaten is significant (I'm looking at you Lord Manderly). I think some peoples problems with Martin is he's taken fantasy tropes and cliches and thrown them out the window. Honor isn't rewarded and evil isn't punished all the time in this world, many times it quite the opposite but for fairly clear reasons.

@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh View Post
is completely counter to my experience with the series. Nothing, so far, has happened completely at random. Everything, imho, seems to be the logical consequences of previous actions.
Actually, to be fair, Martin is quoted as saying essentially that he doesn't have it all mapped out and the story goes where it goes. Take that with a grain of salt, of course, but the essential element of Olantern's comment in that case was solid.

edit: for clarity's sake, that doesn't mean it is random, and there isn't an over-arc plan or direction. But it does mean, I think, that there is a lot of freedom along the way.


The rest though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olantern View Post
I have a deep and abiding loathing for Arya for a lot of reasons. But personally, I'm expecting her to kill Tyrion or, less likely, Danaerys (due to believing he did something he didn't), then either die accidentally herself or wander off to do more spunky girl assassinating because it's "edgy" and "realistic." (See why I don't like this character?)
No, not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olantern View Post
Counterintuitively, Sansa is the Stark I like best, because I can practically feel her author's contempt for her. I always feel sorry for characters when they're being pushed around by their gods.
I don't see any of it as 'being pushed around'. I see what the narrative does is actually looking at events and saying - if so-n-so really is like 'this' as a person, what would happen? In fact, I'd say it is the opposite of what you describe - he is letting the characters push themselves. YMMV, of course, but I look at the book's events and personalities radically differently.

Can that hold true for the entire work, and no personal feelings of the writer sliding into place? Hard to say... However, if he is invested in all his characters at some level, then I believe it is certainly possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh View Post
Also regarding to Clockwork01's statement, the notion of sacrifcing whatever must be done to achieve one's goals, while it's apparently a near-proxy for the supposedly nonexistent "good" for Martin, is kind of a creepy thing in my view, especially in the characters intended to be sympathetic.

(I can forgive the Ironborn or Lannisters for this sort of thing; different rules apply to antagonists.) It should be noted that unlike most people who talk to me about these books or the TV show, who are still mooning over the death of Ned Stark, I loathed and despised the guy for his obsessive devotion to his ideals at the expense of everything. It was only when he agreed to back off in order to save his family that I actually started to like him..
This left me completely confused. Ned held his ground for his ideals rather than sacrificing that core of what was good for him, and that is bad... but a morale of "sacrifcing whatever must be done to achieve one's goals" is creepy?



Anyway, I also think that the fundamental antagonist / sympathetic character concept is particularly under attack in Martin's narrative. I am not convinced that there is a traditional hero or villain. This is due both to a willingness to let events happen regardless of outcome to significant characters and the disjointed, faceted narrative viewpoint - similar in many respects to the past works of those such as Frank Herbert who knowingly used this tactic to limit reader identification with a 'hero' perspective. Sure we are able to identify favorites, but I don't think it is any one character's story - yet - and hence no side is clear.

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Posted

Ok, was going to argue with Chyll a bit until the new edit. Which was essentially what I was going to say. Martin knows where the story is going with the overall arc of things, he just lets the writing get from point A to B. Which I think works in some great (and some bad ways). Let's take the famous Myrenese Knot from Book 5. He knew that Dany, Tyrion, Quenten, Jorah and Victarion all needed to be in Myrene but he didn't have a concrete way originally planned out. When he got to writing DwD he got bogged down due to lack of having a finite plan and it slowed to book. But that doesn't mean he didn't know who would be there and why.

He knows who is what. Who will die. Who will win and who will lose. Maybe some of the minor characters fates are fuzzy, but don't fool yourself into thinking he's writing all of this on the fly. I think a lot of people feel this way because 1. he's going against so many established cliches in fantasy that many fantasy readers see it as random 2. it's a good way to explain his slow writing production (Oh he's bogged down because he doesn't know what will happen). He knows fully well what's going to happen.

@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalMaden View Post
I'd also disagree that randomness is a cornerstone to Martins writing. Quite the contrary. Every word and passage has meaning and is leading to something.
There is, however, one seemingly random event that has huge ramifications on the rest of the story: Eddard's execution. Everything was planned, but Joffrey surprises everyone by overruling his mother ("the mercy of women") and have Ned executed.

Seemingly random, because given the end of book 5, I have my suspicions that Ned's execution wasn't Joffrey's idea. If Varys really has been plotting to throw the realm into chaos, it would make perfect sense if he had been the one who put that notion into Joffrey's head. Just about everything that has happens since, can be traced back to that one fateful moment (as Cersei herself reflects while she's imprisoned).

This also suggests who is behind Tyrion's "fall from grace". He was doing too good of a job, as Hand. If someone wants the realm thrown into chaos, Tyrion needed to be dead or, at least, discredited (note how Tyrion's reign ends when one of the Kingsguard 'spontaneously' tries to murder him during the battle for Kings Landing).

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=][=

 

Posted

There is a difference between characters behaving randomly and a writer writing randomly. He always knew Ned would die and I'd argue he knew who's hands were ultimately responsible.

@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalMaden View Post
Ok, was going to argue with Chyll a bit until the new edit.
Yeah, process failure of editing after posting, but I realized I had poorly worded what I meant. (Glad I got them in fast enough. *whew* )


Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalMaden View Post
He knows who is what. Who will die. Who will win and who will lose. Maybe some of the minor characters fates are fuzzy, but don't fool yourself into thinking he's writing all of this on the fly. I think a lot of people feel this way because 1. he's going against so many established cliches in fantasy that many fantasy readers see it as random 2. it's a good way to explain his slow writing production (Oh he's bogged down because he doesn't know what will happen). He knows fully well what's going to happen.
Well, I'd add that it may be collateral damage from the cliche destruction, but there are few safe assumptions about which characters actually satisfy the requirement of the story arc and which are minor. (at least up until now - we are starting to run out of options at this point...)

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalMaden View Post
There is a difference between characters behaving randomly and a writer writing randomly. He always knew Ned would die and I'd argue he knew who's hands were ultimately responsible.
Absolutely. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.

Thought for the day:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

Posted

Ok, todays topic: Melisandre.

Agent for good? Agent for evil? Strong magically? Weak magically? Fraud? Semi-fraud? Truely loyal to Stannis? Or using Stannis for some grand scheme? Will she turn on him? Are her motivations real or does she have a hidden agenda? Is it her actual appearance or is she really a dried up crone?

Discuss..............

@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalMaden View Post
Ok, todays topic: Melisandre.

Agent for good? Agent for evil? Strong magically? Weak magically? Fraud? Semi-fraud? Truely loyal to Stannis? Or using Stannis for some grand scheme? Will she turn on him? Are her motivations real or does she have a hidden agenda? Is it her actual appearance or is she really a dried up crone?

Discuss..............
Answer: yes (well, except maybe the "dried up crone" part).


To elaborate...

She is what I consider the most dangerous of people... the true believer without the capacity to see and acknowledge her own blind spots. To make it more infuriating, she does have magical gifts. Those shadow babies didn't birth themselves, and she does see future events in her flames.

I suspect we'll find that while she was a slave of the Temple of R'hollor, she has gained her freedom somehow and may actually be a heretic of some sort. She is so convinced that she's right, that she is oblivious to alternate possibilities behind her clairvoyiance. She acknowledges to Jon Snow that her visions are always correct, but her interpretations can be flawed... in the same chapter that she gets frustrated that whenever she looks for a vision of Azor Ahai in her flames, she gets images of Jon Snow instead of Stannis, and assumes that she's doing something wrong.

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Posted

I'd agree with Rosa's observations. Melisandre has some real power, but we also know that at least some of it is for show. Obviously she believes she being faithful to R'hollor. While I don't suspect that Melisandre is an evil witch, I do believe that any religion that practice regularly burning human sacrifices leans a little to close to the darker side of things.